.458 Win Mag sanity check

[offshore44]

I finally got out to shoot this weekend with the 458. It was a good day in the hills. Without waxing poetic; I'll get right to it.

Weather: Classic spring weather in the coast range. 51° F, 92% humidity, pretty constant drizzle and heavy overcast. No wind. The elevation was 1190' where I was shooting.

I wasn't shooting for score, just for initial load development.

The bullets that I was shooting were all dropped from Saeco molds. 350 grn gas checked, 405 plain based and 465 grn gas checked. All bullets were sized to .459" except the 405 grain. The 405 grn were sized to .451" and paper patched, then sized to .459". The powders were AA5744 and H4895. All strings were five shots over the chronograph.

This is the first trip out where I was actually shooting loads over the chronograph.

The 350 and 465 grn loads were a bit of a disappointment...not horrible but, not stellar.

The 405 grn, paper patched loads were just what the doctor ordered though. One in particular exceeded my expectations.

405 grn soft lead.
Sized to .451"
Two wraps of 100% cotton drafting velum.
Waterproofed with Sno-seal. (bees wax boot grease)
Sized to .459"
Loaded into new, slightly flared Hornady cases.
72.0 grains of H4895, CCI large magnum rifle primers.
Medium crimp with Lee factory crimp die.

Heres the shot data:
Max velocity: 2,248 fps.
Min velocity: 2,237 fps.
Ave. velocity: 2,243 fps.
Extreme spread: 11 fps.
Standard Deviation: 5 fps.

No barrel leading and no unburnt powder. No pressure signs. Easy recoil. Very easy cleanup. I only used 7 patches, three of which had Butch's bore shine on them.

The gas checked 350 grn bullets and the gas checked 465 grn bullets were OK. I wouldn't shoot a bunch of the 465 grainer's because of the added recoil, plus you don't gain that much if anything over the 405 grn bullets.

The 350 grn bullets were running about 2,200 fps with pretty erratic velocities and minor bore leading. The 465's were running about 1,465 fps and were pretty consistent, but not as consistent as the paper patched 405's.

I have a ton more data from the shoot if anyone is interested.

Oh, and the best loading for the paper patched bullets is almost a 100% case full... I'd have to figure it out, but it is about 92% as an estimate. I am all jazzed up over this load. Now to work on group size!

[pdawg_shooter]

As near as possible to 100% load density always shoots the best in my rifles.

[offshore44]

First off: I want to tell everyone how much I appreciate all of the help and guidance that I have received here. You all have made it possible for me to successfully shoot cast, paper patched bullets from my toy. The information that I have gleaned from the posts on this board have been instrumental in the process from before I selected this rifle / cartridge combination through putting lead on paper. Good show! Maximum success with minimum false starts.

You are correct pdawg, I gleaned that bit of information from numerous threads here. The information was instrumental in the selection of H4895 as the powder to use in this specific instance. I didn't know what the velocity was going to be when I started to load up, but was pleasantly surprised where it ended up. (It was also nice because I have a boat-load of H4895 on the shelf, ready to burn.)

Next up is finding a Lee push through sizer in .451 that is on the small size of manufacturing tolerance. Any ideas?

Outstanding results folks! Thanks again.

[windrider919]

Hello Bigbore44...

I have not been active here in a while because I am spending about 14 to 16 hours a day on local, state and national politics but I have been scanning/lurking once a week or so for a few min. Hi 303Guy!

Anyway, welcome to the 458WM. I got into it for the same reasons you did about 22 years ago and each time I get a rifle's loads 'bout perfect' someone offers me too much money and I have to start over with building a new rifle and working up its preferred diet (because they are ALL unique individuals).

I jumped in here because although its fun to do the whole load development thing, it is sometime better to use others experience to keep from re-inventing the wheel.

So the first thing I would recommend is learn to use the search function in the PP forum, back before they split it into the Smokeless vs Black Powder sections. Lots of reasons for that because the different propellants shot ENTIRELY differently. What the 'oldtimers' all knew was "THE WAY" did not give the best accuracy using smokeless so there were lots of conflict and war on the net.

I bet I have covered the same material five or six times in lots of detail on specifically PP the 458WM. Not going to do it again...Use the search function and find them.

But here are some key points of 458WM PP shooting that are unique to that cartridge.

Slower powder is not best for 458WM when PPing - the PP bullet has less friction than cast or jacketed and starts down the barrel before the best peak pressure to 'progressively burn' the load. Example - lighter bullets especially give erratic velocity spreads. Try using medium powders which will give you BETTER ACCURACY plus delivering the V, as velocity is nothing without accuracy. And you will find the med. powders give you all the velocity you want anyway, maybe even better because the case volume is too small for the slow powders and PP bullets ( I know!...case volume TOO SMALL?? ..on a 458?!?!)

Having built four custom 458s and had 3 'store bought', the KEY, repeat KEY thing I learned about both cast and PP accuracy is ...bullet fit in the chamber. NOT bullet fit in the bore. You gave some nice barrel specs in you firs post but the first thing i looked for , you left out. The SAMMI specs for reamers/chambers for 458WM have a TERRIBLE throat/leade in front of the case mouth that usually mikes between .463 and .465. And factory rifles are usually the bigger ones. After years of wondering why so many 458WMs were not accurate I believe the answer is - you have a .458 bullet sitting in the chamber TOTALLY unguided because the chamber is set up for ONE bullet. a 500gr FMJ RN. Any other bullets diameter is 'undersize' in the throat and the nose ogive does not even come close to the rifling or bore to center it either. So on ignition, the bullet pretty much cocks to the side, flies forward and is swaged crooked into the rifling. After years of experimentation I finally was able to capture bullets without deforming them and found that my theory was true, they WERE deformed and not concentric and were off balance, causing larger groups. Yah, you could have a custom reamer made with 'correct/standard throat numbers' and set back your barrel a thread and re-chamber but thats expensive. (Sorry, having had one loaned reamer be destroyed by a supposed gunsmith..I will NOT loan out my modified reamer.) Or you can learn to live with the oversize throat and yet still get excellent accuracy. And by that I mean keeping all ten shots of ten on an 8" paper plate at 880 yards.

My 'formula'....first of all, I do NOT swage my PPed bullets as you want the paper to be 'crushable'. I eventually had made a custom 460gr bullet with lube grooves similar to the Lee tumble grooves, not for lubing but to hold the patch better at smokeless high velocity. It was made to cast .454 and be standard PP wrapped to .462. This bullet diameter allows the PP bullet to center itself in the chamber. Since the patch has NOT been swaged and pre-crushed, upon firing the paper crushes down to .458 easily, the bullet takes the rifling with the .004 overbore but not enough to produce any excessive pressure. In your experimentation, try this, you might find it is better.

Also, as you reload the case, the standard expander ball. case mouth beller is dimensioned for jacketed bullets with a case tension WAY to high for cast or PP bullets. Lots of experts will tell you that the base of the bullet is critical to accuracy. If you take a soft lead bullet and cram it down into a too tight case mouth, it WILL swage it down some. In fact, I have miked pulled lead bullets that have been swaged down .002 based on what dies were used. that means that although the middle of the bullet might be full size, if the length that was inside the case is smaller, that cocking of the bullet going down the barrel can happen, destroying accuracy. On several rifles I found that if I just adjust the dies and use the press gently and only bring the ram up til the case mouth is .460 that is all I need to hold the bullet in the case and get the accuracy I have described. (this is also why so many 45ACP shooters claim their 1911 will not shoot cast bullets, their case swaged the 451 bullet down to +-.446 through a 450 bore...not good for accuracy. Change their expander ball to larger so the resized 45ACP case mikes .450 inside the case mouth, the .451 bullet is held firmly and shoots ACCURATELY! Excessive use of the taper crimp die is also an accuracy destroyer because it does the same thing - makes an underbore bullet).

I also only push the PP bullet down into the case at most +-.250 because the limiting factor is the short magazine and yet there is the long chamber throat.

TOO much wax (or glue, or other mystery substance you experiment with) in the paper is a problem, you want AIR in the paper fibers so the paper can take a crush as it enters the rifling. This is why those guys that swage, it works but they will not (usually) get MOA accuracy, they've pre-crushed the give out of their paper. {Sorry guys, not trying to gore anyone's ox here but that's what lots of experimenting by both me and many others shows, Hey, I use wax, too, in moderation, using smokeless - but remember, the BP shooters say any lube is anathema!!! And using BP, I found they were right, it was harmful to accuracy) I use a water soluble wax VERY diluted to just glue the patch slightly SO IT WILL WORK THROUGH THE BOLT ACTION WITH LESS PATCH DAMAGE. Just a trace of wax is left as the water evaporates, leaving spongy paper. Too much wax, filling all the spaces between the paper fibers, is in-compressible as the bullet enters the rifling and will cause uncontrollable swaging and off center/off balance/out of center of gravity vs center of rotation bullets.....IE: flyers. [Visualize in this case flyers making a 1 1/2" group at 100 yards instead of a 1/2" group without.]

I have tried all kinds of wads and found that for .458WM, depending on the powder used, a .465 polyethylene wad.030 thick can improve accuracy. I only do this on loads with excessive empty case volume, such as using a faster powder or a reduced load. I DO use filler because 'full cases shoot better' but search out previous posts on this as it is COMPLICATED and can be dangerous {blow up the rifle dangerous}.


.458WM as cast 460gr, as PPed and loaded


Wild world of .458WM w/ jacketed, pistol PP, sabot, shot and PP loads shown


my custom 460gr, .454 dia, nose riding, PP bullet

[offshore44]

Outstanding Windrider919, I was secretly hoping that you would chime in! I have read a ton of your posts, and seen the pictures that you posted in other threads. Aren't you the guy that had the round ball plinker load? ...and I see the shot load up there too.

I'm just tickled pink with the results that I have obtained so far. With the stuff that I have on hand. The rest is going to be pretty slow going, I'm sure.

The rifle is a CZ 550 American Safari, so I have LOTS of magazine length to play with. It seems to feed the 458WM rounds without munching up the paper patches, so that is a win.

I read the thread that was talking about sizing and patching to the throat diameter, instead of the bore diameter, but hadn't gotten there yet in working up the load. Just pleased that I got some PP lead down range without any leading to speak of. I bought some cerro-safe to cast the chamber, but haven't gotten there yet either.

Ten shots into an 8" paper plate at 880 yards? That's what I'm talking about!

I printed out your suggestions above, and added them to my 458 folder. the smart man learns from others experiences...

[pdawg_shooter]

My best powder for a 430gr PP is and has always been H335. I size .4515 and patch with 16# paper. Works for me.

[offshore44]

I tried out your hot glue gun trick with the nose punch that was giving me fits pdawg. It worked! Good tip.

(Now to try patching to throat dimensions and see where that gets me. Then on to the search for the appropriate powder!)

[offshore44]

So, I had a minute and some fresh cast soft lead to play with...

Using the paper that I used before, two wraps and put on wet, it seems that the as patched size comes out to just about 0.462". So I'm good to go there. I had one case that wasn't loaded, at the moment. It is freshly sized and de-primed. The 0.462" paper patched bullet is not going to seat into that case without trashing the paper patch, as I expected. Sooo...I'll have to wait until I burn up some more ammo to see what an unsized case looks like. If I can get away with no or minimal sizing that is all the better. With brass for this thing running about a buck a pop, the longer I can make them last, the better!

I also checked my current seating depth, and it is 0.310". I won't have to back out much to get to Windrider's recommended seating depth of 0.250", +/-. The rifle has plenty of magazine length to work with, that's for sure.

This next round of reloads are not going to get "waxed", if I can help it. Just enough on the exposed portion of the patch to provide water proofing and a little bit of extra reinforcement to keep the patch together for the trip from the magazine to the chamber.

Man, I really want this thing to shoot sub-MOA eventually. Of course, that's predicated on me being able to shoot sub-MOA...

[303Guy]

Hi there windrider919.
I was wondering where you were.
Great post! (It's 101 material).
It explained quite a few of my speculations.

IE: flyers. [Visualize in this case flyers making a 1 1/2" group at 100 yards instead of a 1/2" group without.]

Loved that statement!

Ten shots into an 8" paper plate at 880 yards? That's what I'm talking about!

Hell yeah!

[offshore44]

OK, so the wife was watching a TV show last night that I had no interest in...

So I dug out the CZ and some patched bullets, some un-patched bullets, the one unloaded case that I had available and misc. reloading gear.

Here is what I came up with: The leade on my rifle is longer than I visualized...by about a quarter inch or so. I didn't measure it.

I stuffed a paper patched bullet into the empty case as long as it would go and still not fall out. Put the dummy round into the rifle and closed the bolt. This pushed the bullet back into the case and set the bullet fairly firmly into the leade. This showed me two things...I need to pay closer attention to cleaning the chamber end of the barrel, and the bullet was seated into the case by 0.130". I can't pull the bullet by hand, so that tells me something. This round will cycle through the action though, plenty of room in the magazine length wise. It also showed me that my wrap is just over the ogive. All good things. I also cycled the round through the action several times, just for giggles, and the whole contraption stayed together and showed no appreciable damage. That's good too, right?

I went after the freshly patched and dried bullets that I had sitting on the bench with a micrometer. I miked the patched bullets when they were not all the way dry, and came up with 0.462" minus a little. That thrilled the you-know-what out of me. (See windriders919's post) After they were all the way dry they miked out at 0.4595" very consistently. Not so thrilled now.

So, it looks like a new custom mold is in my future. Or a change in the paper used, or both.

Ya, it's all "paper patching for the .458 Win Mag 101" or remedial paper patching for dummies or something...but that's where I'm at. At least I'm trying to pay attention to the been there - done that crew and learn this stuff.

Still thrilled with the results so far!

[offshore44]

OK, more experimental work done this afternoon...

I changed the paper out to a different paper - plain old printer paper. Wrapped a bullet up and let it dry while I was running some errands and taking care of business. Dry, it mikes out to 0.463" +/- just a tad. I went back to my one unloaded case and pulled the bullet. carefully stuffed the last bullet into the case. Seating depth was 0.250". Put the case into the magazine. Cycled the bolt. Removed the bullet. Eureka! The bullet went into the chamber just fine, AND upon removing the dummy cartridge from the rifle, I found that the bullet / patch had just kissed the rifling in the leade. The paper patch was undisturbed by cycling the round, though there was just the least amount of evidence that the paper patch on the start of the ogive had made contact with the bore.

The case neck tension reduced the size of the bullet base about 0.001". Hmmm...next issue to address.

[windrider919]

Speaking of brass and cost...I re-anneal my brass case mouths every five reloadings.

I use the lead pot method, with the temp about 650 degrees, a little cold for casting big bore bullets but completely molten. Skim the dross. Holding the fired case by the base, vertically dip the case mouth 1/2" into the lead. Count three seconds and remove the case, then quickly dip the case mouth in cold water about half way up the case for five to eight seconds to cool it. I then set it on a towel and use a blow drier to gently warm (no more than 110 F or so) and evaporate the water. I have sets of 50 ea cases that have been reloaded over twenty times and still no case mouth splits.

This is a good time to check the case length, too. You might also check out posts about paper rings and case length, I trim mine to match my chamber, NOT shorten them to the 'recommended' trim length because it produces a gap for those rings to be extruded into. And if you don't catch one and chamber another round - well....It shoots and kicks about like a proof round, the primer pocket might be enlarged, etc. You know you did this when it takes a rawhide mallet to open the bolt ! You will only do this once! It is the only major drawback to using PP in a bolt action. With a single shot you tend to look in the chamber and take a little more time. I have trained myself to be very aware in chambering a PP round, any unusual resistance to closing the bolt....I STOP and find out why. A torn and folded patch will also cause a higher pressure firing, another reason to pay attention and 'feel' what is going on, especially when shooting multiple shots quickly.

As per why 880 yards, that's 1/2 mile. And if you don't have basically a one hole group at 100 yards, you will not have an 8" group at 880.

Belong a group of big bore, mostly BPCR shooters who every so often go out at dawn to a little used county road here that runs East-West. We set up some 5 gal metal hydraulic drums one of the guys gets (colored red) at about the halfway point then drive back toward the East a half mile. We set up with the sun behind us, just coming over the horizon when the air is usually still, no breeze at all. We shoot $5.00 a shot, limit is 20 shots and the person who has the most holes (must be round, no skips or ricochets) in their can wins the pot. Some days shooting is done in the sitting position with sticks allowed but no benches or other things like sandbag rests allowed. Other times, we just shoot using the hoods of our trucks as a rest. Great fun and really separates the shooters from the braggarts. P.S.- I usually average score between 9 and 11 hits doing this and that is really pretty XXXX good! Pot wins is usually 14 to 16. What I mean is that I am not the best shot in the group....Sigh It is a LOT tuffer than it seems and I am pleased to be a 'middle' scoring shooter as the last/fewest hit guy is also the one who has to 'clean up' the range and dispose of the shot up metal cans while the rest of us go have coffee...Grin.

And then there is the weekend after Halloween shoot where we get unsold/free pumpkins from the store and shoot at 1000 yards!

[offshore44]

I have been looking into annealing cases...lots of opinions around that one, isn't there? The common opinion is that annealing is good, but techniques are varied and plentiful to say the least.

Good tip on case length, I have been religiously trimming to 2.500" on all the cases that I have loaded so far. So that is wrong, or at least not absolutely correct.

Successful paper patching is truly a custom reloading thing, isn't it? It does appeal to my custom mechanical / engineering side. I have a thought in the back of my mind of trying to duplicate the .45 - 70 Sandy Hook experiment just for giggles. It would be interesting to see just how far we've come in what, 140 years?

Every time I start feeling cocky about my shooting skills, I dig out the Winchester M52C with the Lyman Target Spot scope on it and shoot at 100 yards. That puts everything into perspective for me. It is boringly accurate off the bench. It sure shows when the technique is going south! But I digress.

Thanks for the story on shooting the buckets...puts some perspective on all of this technical stuff. I have all of the tips and techniques that I have scrounged up in my reloading binder. Stuff that works gets written up and refined, stuff that hasn't been tested yet are in another section and the stuff that doesn't work is in a third section with why it didn't seem to work. Meticulous record keeping would seem to help here.

[offshore44]

Okaayeee... My Hornady "New Process" bullet seating die is NOT going seat the 0.462" diameter paper patched bullets. Any suggestions for a bullet seating die that will?

Here's what happened... got the bullets patched up to 0.463" and checked them in my rifle. Check, they chamber. Figured out a seating depth so that the paper just touched the rifling in the leade. 0.250" seating depth, check. Went to seat the first one, starting out long so I can "sneak up" on the correct COL. Check. Jammed the bloody thing into the "New Process" sliding sleeve thing good and tight. Bummer, but it's a learning experience. Right? Got that little issue figured out, I thought. Made a second pass with a new PP bullet, working on feel. Sweet! Seems to be going well this time, until I got ready to pull the cartridge out of the die. Jammed in there tighter than a wedge in an axe head. Lots more monkeying around getting that straightened out and the die put back together. It occurs to me that it may be a little tight, (duh!?) and might need some lube to function correctly. A little lube on the paper patch and off to the races for try number three! Same-o, same-o.

Grabbed ANOTHER paper patched bullet (I'm a slow learner some days) at 0.462" diameter and the case. Looked at the press and seating die; and thought to myself "Been there - done that...it ain't gonna work". So, I pushed it in with my thumb. Viola! A little diddling around and the seating depth is even correct. Lesson learned? Jam enough bullets into a case and you can throw a bullet at it from across the room to seat it. Also learned that the Hornady die is not going to seat these bullets into those cases. I must say that the bullet was seated perfectly straight though. The paper patch held up to all of the abuse really well also. Any suggestions on a bullet seating die?

As an aside, I miked the paper patch on one of the bullets that didn't get seated, but went through the seating die sleeve, and it came out at 0.461", and as perfectly round as I could measure.

Say, I wonder if I could get a sleeve from Hornady and lap it out a few thousandths? I wonder.....

[windrider919]

I slipped up here, I guess I just assumed [and we all know : ass u me!] that I had made the point that stock dies did not do well with PP bullets. I have two sets of dies, one RCBS for jacketed and std cast bullets and a modified Lyman set for PP.

Again, it all goes back to the chamber. One of my .458WM rifles has a 'tight' chamber that using 'fired' unsized brass will not take a correctly sized PP bullet. For this rifle all I do is deprime the brass with a old Lee hand de-primer rod n hammer then run it into the expander just enough to let the PP base in without catching the paper. Barely opens up/bells the case mouth at all. Seat the bullet and then, using the SIZING die with-out the de-capping pin installed, run the loaded case up into the die enough to take out the bell and re-straighten the case side. This is my most accurate rifle in 458WM.

On another rifle, I use the dies in a more standard manner but basically, I do not run the case all the way up into the sizing die, sort of just a kiss of neck sizing. AND I had an oversize expander ball made at a machine shop for the right expansion and a gentile case mouth expansion.

It is also almost mandatory to lap out the seater die to fit the oversize PP bullet. The seater die was engineered to hold a .458/9 bullet straight and concentric as it was pushed into the case. If it had tolerances to accept a .463 bullet it would have let .458 bullets be inserted slightly crooked....remember thats a no-no and leads to larger groups ( a quality die IS going to be too tight, would you really WANT a sloppy die that could take this special bullets too?).

Hey, If you are just putting together 100/200 yard hunting loads then a 2'" group at 100 is excellent for the purpose. Think about it, back 30 or 40 years ago, an extraordinary hunting rifle was one that shot smaller groups than 4 inches at 100 Yds. Times have changed and we expect more from our rifles and ammo, but for general shooting , do we NEED more? You only need this special and exhausting level of 'fiddly bits' to get that 'ultimate accuracy' so many claim they are capable of if they just had the 'right equipment'. I invest a HUGE amount of time crafting such loads but for hunting, I am satisfied at/with that 2"/100yd group too. Invest time or money, it DOES requires extra to get sub-moa accuracy in a big bore elephant gun.

[offshore44]

No issues windrider919...you made the point and I missed it in the rush to try out what you were telling me. No harm - no foul!

This thing is a total toy...I'm just trying to see what she will do. At some point the rifle will be more accurate than I am. That's when I'll stop fiddling around and just shoot it. For all I know, I may already be there. It's like a hot rod. It's big. It's powerful. It's noisy. Not many folks have one. I can spend hours fiddling with it to no gain, and not feel bad about it. ...and there is always something else to try. Believe me, if I walked up to the firing line and hit the bull / 10 ring with the first shot, I would probably grin and put the rifle away. Just to keep folks guessing. This thing IS an absolute riot to shoot. But you know that already.

For hunting, I have a Mauser that I shoot gas checked bullets out of. Or a Parker Hale in .308 that is a work of art (except for the stock) if I want to shoot J-word bullets.

Thanks for keeping at it on this thread...I'll get it eventually. i.e. I'm properly chastised.

(Edited to add If I really want to see just how good I am at the shooting game...I dig out the M52C. Most of the time I do pretty good, sometimes I impress myself, and sometimes I embarrass the you know what out of myself.

[bbqncigars]

offshore44:
I'm interested in your progress with PP vs j bullets. I'm going to get tooled up to work some up for my big bolt action. My home range only goes out to 200yds, which means it is a bit of a waste of expensive bullets and powder (218gr per round) to load the standard .50 match rounds. I'm guessing a brake will not appreciate the PP, but it might be ok. Do you have a brake installed? Just curious. The goal is an accurate PP boolit load at 200yds that will be cheaper to shoot and not leave all that danged copper in the bore.

[offshore44]

offshore44:
I'm interested in your progress with PP vs j bullets. I'm going to get tooled up to work some up for my big bolt action. My home range only goes out to 200yds, which means it is a bit of a waste of expensive bullets and powder (218gr per round) to load the standard .50 match rounds. I'm guessing a brake will not appreciate the PP, but it might be ok. Do you have a brake installed? Just curious. The goal is an accurate PP boolit load at 200yds that will be cheaper to shoot and not leave all that danged copper in the bore.

I am totally the wrong person to talk to about the effect of a brake on paper patched bullets. I'm sure that someone here can speak to that though.

My rifle has only had jacketed bullets shot through it at the factory. I purchased it for shooting cast, and paper patched. So far, so good. I have actually been impressed with my limited results so far. It's all very "hands on" and I like that.

No brake on my rifle, and no intention of putting one on. I am not particularly recoil sensitive, so there really isn't a need in this particular case.

I have just discovered that I am trying to run, before I learn to walk...which is a good sanity check for me. I think that there is going to be a lot of that in my efforts. For instance: Windrider919 (and others) was kind enough to offer advice, that was good and sound. I missed, or didn't understand at the time, what he was saying about seating dies. I get it now. I am coming to understand that there are a lot of details, small in the telling, that have a major impact on the process and success achieved. Once you have the experience, it is head slappingly obvious. Without the experience it is not even on the radar screen.

Back to shooting 50 BMG with a cast, paper patched bullet... That's an intriguing idea, but way beyond my skill and experience. Good Luck!

[offshore44]

Oh, and I checked out the inside diameter of the Hornady bullet seating sleeve...

0.459" diameter, minus a very little. So, the first paper patched bullets that I loaded were just almost exactly the same outside diameter as the inside of the bullet seating die. They were lubed with a beeswax lube / waterproofing concoction. A very careful examination of the inside of the die showed that any lube that was on the surface of the paper patch was getting skimmed off and deposited on the inside of the die in the area of the crimp "bump". Any defect, no matter how minor, was enough to cause the die to bugger up the paper patch. Lots of signs to read there, but they meant nothing until the were examined further. ...and until someone said "Hey dofus, you're trying to stuff 5# of taters into a 4# sack!".

[303Guy]

I'm guessing a brake will not appreciate the PP, but it might be ok.

No amount of paper is going to withstand the might of the muzzle blast going through a muzzle break! That's just my guess anyway.

I have suppressor breaks on my rifles (some of them) and they do not collect any debris at all. The ones I can check, anyway. I've had a cotton wool ball go sideways into the device and dissappear after the next shot. Debris gets sucked out by the escaping muzzle blast.

(A suppressor break is a device that greatly reduces recoild AND muzzle blast).