Paper Gas Checks

[HARRYMPOPE]

Looks like you've given it a pretty good go, there. I think your issue is with launch, not boolit design. What powders have you tried?

Fouling in the throat and the first couple inches of barrel has been my #1 issue in, particularly lead and carbon fouling, and in one case the aforementioned flour/lube fouling. I'm convinced that the boolit loses seal just as it gets moving and the throat gets a blast of combustion gas before it comes up to full pressure, creating a bit of lead dust and partially burned carbon and lube to jet out ahead of the boolit. The addition of Dacron filler helped slightly, but not much. Using really slow pistol powder helped some, but didn't eliminate leading until less than 1100 fps. The paper check does something at launch that completely eliminates any visible fouling in the throat, leaving a shiny, dry bore with no soot or carbon to speak of, almost like the gun was fired with a paper-patched boolit.

Gear

What powder didn't I try was more the question! Bullseye and Unique were by far the most uniform with pistol primers being tops.Sd's were often 3-8 fps so the loads were very uniform.I used construction foam "sill sealer" over the powder like the guys shooting the 32 Miller and 32-40's but it didn't do anything uniformity or accuracy wise.I ran all but my loads shot in matches over the chronograph and could see if velocity variation gave wild shots.it didn't always.if i shot only 5 shot groups and didn't care if the groups point of impact were slowly shifting about i could shoot quite a few groups under 3/4" at 100.Many times the first 5 were 1/2" The problem was getting a load to stay put for 10 and shoot under 1-3/4"" to be competitive on the score target.I didn't always get the fouling but often enough.Sometimes i could shoot 200-300 rounds other times only 20-30 before it went south.

Breech seating into the throat gave a perfect seal with near perfect"launch" but didn't stop flyers.I shoot with a few top ASSRA Schuetzen guys and the breech seating is the only was to get top accuracy for them so i gave it a try.When i reported back the so -so results they said "what do you expect it's a bolt action"

HMP

[geargnasher]

Ok, here's a pic as promised. I've been refining my methods so I wanted to get a better process before posting.

I punch 7/16" discs from the manilla file folder material, place them on the waxed paper, and gently mist them with Elmer's spray adhesive, and wait until it's tacky enough to stick to the boolits. I stick them on the bases (the glue allows some movement after contact so I can get them centered) and set them aside. I do batches of 25 and then go run them through the Lyman 45 and lube normally.

An important note, I took the ejector rod plunger out of the bottom of the 45 and turned it around with the big end down so I could push the ejector ("I" part) up above the surface of the "H" die, this makes it easier to slide the boolit off of the rod without the check sticking to the ejector and tearing off the boolit. Lube always seems to get on the ejector and the paper sticks to it very well.

The little pile of preformed checks at the bottom left of the pic I don't use anymore, but included them in this pic to show how I made them.

Gear

[longbow]

Well, I am not as far along as Gear is but I decided I would try the paper patch half jacket idea that brstevns asked about originally.

I had thought about it before myself but not done anything since I was thinking it would require a custom mould. However, it occurred to me that for a few I could just machine off some of the diameter of the body of an existing design so I did just that.

I chucked up some 316299's and turned the bottom two driving bands down to 0.307" but left the front driving band alone. This creates room for a paper half jacket with a shoulder in front.

I had a heck of a time patching them as they can't be rolled easily like and even diameter boolit. Also, the short half jacket is hard to handle. I actually found it much easier to wrap dry then wet the wrapped boolits. Maybe a rubber pad would work?

Why wet them after you ask? Well, since these are gas check shank I had real problems avoiding wrinkles as the paper tapered down at the gas check shank. When wet this isn't a problem but I could not handle the paper when it was wet as it kept sliding off and I couldn't get them wrapped tightly.

In the end they came out pretty well and dried up tight after post wrap wetting.

I have run them through the sizer and will trim tails next. I will post some photos before loading.

I had thought this would be easier than normal wrapping but that does not appear to be the case. I found this to be an awful lot of work!

If they shoot well, I may have to re-think this a bit to see if I can make it easier. However, I think Gear's paper checks are probably a better idea.

Longbow

[brstevns]

Thanks you guys, it looks as if others as well had my thought and I am glad to see all the reseach that is being done. I hope it works out as those little gas checks are running the prices up and not being able to fined the size needed is not fun.

[longbow]

What size are you needing?

I made my own rather crude but very functional gas check maker with nothing but a small lathe and some scrap steel bar.

There is not much to it and very simple to make but it turns out a nice gas check. it would be easy to make in whatever size is required.

I am using it to make checks for my NOE 316299 and they come out about 0.316" OD then expand a little when I seat them so crimp on nicely when run through a 0.315" sizer.

I am a bit torn between paper patching and making gas checks. Both are work for a lazy guy like me. I like casting but the rest of the reloading process is tedious and making then installing gas checks is just more work. I am betting overall paper patching is no more work. That's why I was thinking about a paper half jacket behind a shoulder so it is protected and inside the neck. However, after having wrapped these boolits with a half jacket I found it not so easy as wrapping a whole boolit which goes pretty well.

Now they are done I will shoot them though! Seeing Gears idea has me wanting to try that too though. I was trying to think of a way to make a paper "gasket" base but had not though of making paper checks like that. I have some gasket material that is pretty tough and about the right thickness so guess what I try next!

I will take some photos and post them shortly. I may have some gasket paper checks made by then too.

Longbow

[brstevns]

LongBow Guess it is more the cost then anything that eats at me. I want to start working with the Lyman 311284 in both a 308 win and the 303 Brit. Retired and on a fixed income makes one count his pennies.

[longbow]

Okay then, I was going top post photos and maybe will yet but I guess under our new image policy I must be over the limit because I can't just yet. I will most likely have to delete some first..

Anyway, I have 10 that I turned down the the driving bands except for the leading band then paper patched in a half jacket style. It was awkward so even if they work I would have to find a better way to wrap if I were to make more. A soft rolling pad might work but wrapping paper tight on a reduced diameter didn't go too well. Paper patching a regular boolit is much easier!

brstevns:

If you have access to a small lathe you can easily make a simple gas check maker like mine or alternately, the FreeChex aren't terribly expensive. Last I checked (no pun intended) they were running about $40.00 on eBay.

The other alternative is to size the boolit down so you can patch back up to groove diameter. That would be easier for .303 Brit because a standard .30 cal. doesn't have to be sized down much. For .308 it would take more sizing.

I am not on a fixed income... yet, but I am cheap. If I can do it myself and save a penny or two I do.

Longbow

[luna butte]

hey Gear,

how soon till you really try to push them boolits? say 1800fps in your 3030.

[brstevns]

longbow Thanks for the advice. I do have a jewellers lathe but have never really played with it.
Maybe now is the time to start.
I was thinking on the 308 Win, maybe size down to .308 then resize to .309 or .310 after paper patching.

[longbow]

brstevns:

Not sure what you can chuck in a jeweler's lathe but I just drew up my check maker for an internet buddy in North Carolina so he could make one. I used roughly 1" OD round bar for the die body but 5/8" would probably do and 1/2" for the forming punch but again 7/16" would do so fairly small diameters.

If you are interested I can send you the drawings. It is simple and some might say crude but it makes a nice gas check and is easy to make.

PM me if you are interested and I will send drawings.

Longbow

[edsmith]

how about posting the drawings, we are always interested in ideas and new tools.

[longbow]

I would except right now I can't seem to post anything. I think with the new image posting rules I am over the limit so may have to delete some images from old posts.

I will have to check and see what's up.

[brstevns]

LongBow I sent a PM to you. I would love to see the drawings.

[geargnasher]

hey Gear,

how soon till you really try to push them boolits? say 1800fps in your 3030.

Hopefully this weekend, if the sun is out enough for the chronograph. Already have a long test run of workups loaded. Based upon the loads I've fired already,
I expect the accuracy to go away before leading starts. Back up to a load that produced 1500 fps before, groups are just barely starting to open up.

Gear

[longbow]

For whatever reason I can't post the drawings just yet but here is a link to my original post showing the check maker and checks:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=82989

Like I said simple... even crude but easy to make and the checks are good.

Longbow

[luna butte]

while driving to a customers home i got to thinking about these paper checks and i wondered if the act of ignition wasn't jerking these things inside out and creating an oversized wad of sorts. kinda like the Powerbelt muzzleloader bullets with the plastic cup hanging off of em.

what say you?

[longbow]

Not sure what was wrong but I can attach now.

Here are the drawings of my simple check maker. I marked them up for an internet buddy and haven't cleaned them up but they should be usable.

Also, I checked (no pun intended) and they fit perfectly on my Lyman 31141 shank too so should size all the way down to 0.310" or so or you could alter the die diameter to maybe 0.312" or whatever suits your needs.

I originally set up to use 0.014" aluminum but since I had some old gutters and roof flashing I decided to try it. The material is 0.019" thick and works perfectly.

Also, just to try to stay somewhat on topic I have attached the photos of paper half jackets too. I will be shooting these in a week or so.

Longbow

[edsmith]

Outstanding drawings and check maker. I really like that design. it can be made with a drill press and a file. good work.

[longbow]

Thanks Ed. It certainly isn't as nice as yours but it is simple to make.

If anyone hasn't seen Ed's write up and check maker it is very nice and excellent write up.

Now, more news!

I just made a "large" improvement to my simple check maker so if anyone is going to make one you might want to include it.

I had made mine "wrong" (I just cobbled it together from scrap bits) in that the lower shoulder on the forming punch bottomed on the shoulder in the die when the check is driven through, which eventually would lead to battering of both. I had drawn it so the top shoulder would bottom on the top of the die. Anyway, I had a little gap of about 1/8" when the check was driven through and I would pop the check off the punch with my fingers.

I had thought of adding a "tooth" of spring steel or something to catch the top edge of the check so it would pull the check off when I pulled the punch back but they do come off easy with my fingers and I am lazy so didn't bother.

Then I thought I should add a spring to stop the bottoming but that involves work and I might have mentioned that I am lazy, so I took the easy road and cut off a 1/4" (about) thick ring off a piece of 7/16" ID hose that fit the shank of the punch perfectly. Well, as fate would have it the piece of hose acts not only as a bumper but it just allows the check to pop through the bottom of the die then pulls the punch back and the check drops off! No extra handling!

I wish I could claim I planned it that way!

Anyway, The method I use which works for me:

- I punch the disks, which goes real quick
- then hold some in my left hand
- drop one into the die
- drop the punch on it
- whack it gently to seat it
- then a couple hard whacks through the die and onto a piece of steel which makes a nice flat bottom and helps loosen the check
- then I set the whole works on the partially open jaws of my vice and whack it once to drive the check through and it pops off.

I plan to make a little stand with an "anvil" to form the check and a hole next to it to drive the check through without lifting up the check maker ~ just form the check onto the anvil then slide the check maker over the hole and drive the check through. That will make it all easier and faster.

So, if you want a combination bumper and check remover just machine the top shoulder back by about 1/4" and add a ring of rubber hose about 1/4" to 5/16" thick so a hard hammer blow (not devastating, just firm) will just push the check out the bottom of the die then it pops off "automatically"as the punch is pulled back by the bumper. No fuss, no muss, less handling, less work. Life is good.

I guess a picture is worth a thousand words so I should take a photo and revise the drawing as well. I will shortly but in the mean time you got a thousand words.

Alright then, enough about aluminum check makers. Back on topic!

I will report back after shooting the paper half jacket boolits. If I were to make more I would have to find a better way because they were work. If they perform well though I just might have to try some more!

I fear they may not make it out of the cartridge well without paper extending into the throat but we will see.

If nothing else I think they look nice!

Longbow

[Outdoors]

Hey Gear,
anything new on this topic?

Pat