Paper Gas Checks

[brstevns]

Could one paper patch just the bottom of a bullet say the base and up to the frist lube groove , making this a paper gas check or would patch strip off in barrel?

[HARRYMPOPE]

I tried gluing thick paper to the bottom of plainbase 30 calibers and had no success.i thought i would conquer the world with my idea but didn't.Now maybe a bullet made .300 dia for a small section ( just a bit longer than a typical GC )shank would work as a "partial paper jacket" load.Interesting idea.

HMP

[geargnasher]

NOW I think to search this out. I'm mired in a plain-based .30-30 load quest and I gave up on the undersized PB mould I was using, went back to a group-buy 311041 copy and was trying to figure out how to keep powder from sticking to the lube on the empty gas check shank. The load that seems to be working well with the PB boolit doesn't require Dacron filler, and I was trying to avoid using it for these plinker loads, so I was looking or another solution. With the gasket punch set I have I experimented and made a few dozen checks from card stock, and they go on wonderfully with Felix lube and are stuck and formed well to the bases. I wasn't trying to do anything except keep the bases dry, but was going to try pushing the envelope a bit and see if they would add a measure of performance to the otherwise unchecked boolit. Ithought I had a million-dollar idea too, We'll see! It's more of a pain to make the checks than it is to pick and weigh a tuft of Dacron, so if the paper cups don't make it shoot better I'll scrap the idea too.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Well, it works! Started out making checks with .008" card stock punched into 3/8" discs, then run into the .311" Lyman sizer die to make the cup. These small, thin checks didn't work so well, sometimes the discs wouldn't clear the throat, making the next cartridge difficult to chamber. I went back and made some 7/16" checks out of the same stuff, this time the throat leading went away, I got a nice lube star, and the 50-yard group went from 5" to 2" with two fliers of ten making it 3-1/2". Went back again and made some 7/16" checks out of a manilla file folder (.010" thick), this time my 10-shot 50-yard group was a nice, round 1-3/4", which today is about the limit of what I can see. On a good day with a proven, copper-checked load I can do 1-1/4" with this gun. At this point I can't tell if the load coulde be tweaked more to shoot better, or if it's me.

If I get a chance before the sun gets low I'll chronograph these loads (I'm expecting less than 1200 fps here) and see what gives. All I know now is the addition of the manilla check, with the same exact everything else, completely stopped the throat and first couple of inches of the barrel from leading, improved accuracy, and reduced fliers, so it's doing something good.

I don't know at what point the checks disintegrate, but they come out of the muzzle in a cloud of fibers that float in the air 8-10 feet in front of the muzzle.

Gear

[PatMarlin]

I don't see why a guy couldn't make paper checks out of my dies as well. Good work Gear.

[brstevns]

I would still like to know if anyone has tried patching just the base and first band?

[geargnasher]

Pat, the thing is, if a person had one of your neat-o gadgets they could just make checks out of gutter flashing or what ever works and shoot to 2500 fps! This is one of those little projects that started as one thing (keeping powder off the lube residue on the check shank) and turned into a "what if?".

I'm more encouraged that this little experiment has merit, I just got back from the range again and put some REAL data on the floor. The loads I mentioned in post #4 were using Hodgdon Longshot, 6.3 grains, raw numbers ('cuz I'm too lazy to do the math right now) for 20 shots meaured 1100 fps +- 8 fps, pretty even spread. For grins I tried a REAL load, 16.0 grains of RX7 for 1480fps average velocity +/-12 fps for ten shots, got 1-1/2" group at 50 yards! Zero visible leading, nice, shiny bore from throat to muzzle, slight lube star, I'm pretty happy with this. This boolit without a check pushed by the same load of RX7 will lead like crazy at these velocities and make 4-5" groups at 50.

BTW I'm also very happy with my F1 Master Chrony, this is the third one since December (sent it back to Chrony twice) and it works like it's supposed to, had zero trouble today with several rifles and pistols.

I'll post some pics of what i'm doing with the checks if anyone's interested, looks like this might really have some merit for medium velocity rifle stuff, although I can't see how paper checks could work as well as metal ones much beyond plain-based velocities.

Gear

[HARRYMPOPE]

Gear-
for GC bullets as a plain base with goobered up GC shanks a light roll motor mica and you dont get powder sticking to the base.

HMP

[geargnasher]

H- I usually use baker's cake flour for sticky boolit bases, cheaper than mica, but thanks for the tip.

Gear

[HARRYMPOPE]

H- I usually use baker's cake flour for sticky boolit bases, cheaper than mica, but thanks for the tip.

Gear

I do most all of my 30-06 plainbase loading at the bench with one case and vintage hand tools and coat all of my bullets with mica to keep my hands and loading stuff relatively un-sticky.When i run out of mica i'll try flour i guess.

HMP

[longbow]

brstevns:

I had the same thought some time ago but with a twist ~ a slightly reduced base shank diameter with a shoulder that would sit just inside the case mouth. Call it a short paper patch (half jacket) or a long gas check. Then patch the rear end up to groove diameter.

I figured the shoulder would protect the front edge of the paper patch and provide guidance in the throat and the paper patch would protect the boolit base.

I am not set up to make a split mould though so haven't pursued the idea but I see no reason it shouldn't work. Essentially a nose bore rider design like the 311299/314299 but with one lead driving band then paper on the rear driving bands.

It might work with a cylindrical boolit of bore diameter or just over then rear end patched to groove diameter so the nose bore rides and the rest is paper patched. Without the shoulder I am not sure if the patch would make it through the throat and into the rifling though.

I had not though of this before but I could try lathe turning the rear end of some 316299's and patch a narrow strip. That just might be worth a try.

Longbow

[geargnasher]

I do most all of my 30-06 plainbase loading at the bench with one case and vintage hand tools and coat all of my bullets with mica to keep my hands and loading stuff relatively un-sticky.When i run out of mica i'll try flour i guess.

HMP

I forgot to explain why I was looking to use something other than cake flour (it's much finer than regular flour on these boolits, I was getting a buildup in the front of the chamber after a few shots and it was causing chambering issues. I've never had this problem before, must be the extra-long shank this boolit has (room for regular lube groove in front of seated check) and just too much lube and flour in this case. Mica probably would have worked better in this case.

Gear

[32-20]

This is an interesting thread, as I was just thinking along similar lines last night.

What got me to thinking of the card stock was they way it is often used in loading black powder cartridges. I suspect there the idea is to not mar the bottom of the bullet as you seat onto a compressed charge?

Another thought is the use of a felt wad, again borrowing from the blackpowder cartridge community? I could see this working if you were seating onto a bulky powder, or using some type of filler material that would hold the felt wad against the base of the bullet.

If no filler was used, then you would have to hope to glue it to the base with something like liquid alox?

Aside from making your own gaschecks, I think they have just gotten too darn expensive.

[32-20]

Geargnasher -

Yes, please post a picture or two.

What about upgrading a little and using the thicker waxed paper used in quart size milk cartons?
Blackpowder community likes that as carstock as well.

[HARRYMPOPE]

brstevns:

I had the same thought some time ago but with a twist ~ a slightly reduced base shank diameter with a shoulder that would sit just inside the case mouth.
Longbow

I shoot the RCBS 310 cadet heeled bullet in 8 x 57's by seating the .310 base in the neck and letting the .323 nose section hang out up front. .I used Lee Liq. Alox to lube them and a lee factory crimp die to hold them in.It is plinker load with 4.5 of B-Eye,but will do 1.25"-2" at 50 with irons.

HMP

[geargnasher]

Geargnasher -

Yes, please post a picture or two.

What about upgrading a little and using the thicker waxed paper used in quart size milk cartons?
Blackpowder community likes that as carstock as well.

I'll see what I can do tomorrow after work. Not sure the waxed stuff would stay on the boolit the way I've been applying them.

Tried something tonight to speed the process along: Not pre-forming the discs, instead just using a tiny dot of super glue to hold the disc on the boolit base, then running it through the sizer like normal, working good so far and easer to get the disc centered on the base.

Gear

[HARRYMPOPE]

I have also used computer labels as paperchecks.Total failure,but they stuck on without glue.I am curious where this will go for you.I shot over 6,000 Pope 308403's the last three years in US Military 30-06's trying to get rid of oddball flyers caused by goofy carbon/lead/lube fouling in the throat.
I tried wads,lube changes,alloys etc... and never really could see a consistent relationship between the small changes.I did noticed that harder bullets shot as well or better than softer ones.That could have been because of the larger size.I even made a breach seater on a recommendation of Schuetzen shooter.Best grouping for 10 shots at 100 yards was just 1" and average was closer to 2-1/4".Other bullets besides the Pope shot with similar accuracy.

PB Bullets tried-

SAECO's #630,#529,#540,Modern Bond #311145 & #870,Ideal 308241,Ideal 308259 (stop ring bullet) , Ideal 311410 HP and solid,SAECO Darr 150,Hoch 200,Hoch 155,LBT 200 PB,311284 PB'ed,Barnett 200g,and recently a Mountain Mold 311 x 225g.

HMP

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I've used Pat's GC maker to punch out thin discs of cardboard to use in BP cartridges and in M/L over powder charges.

Taking his tool a step farther why not seek out a paper/ card disc made in the first step and then make a real paper GC from it ? Let the boolit seating operation seat it, not the sizer.

I do not have time myself to follow that adventure, but as the paper/card disk part works easily, it sure seems to me that the cup forming operation should work with his tool also. I would start with something like the coated paper from milk cartons, or brown file folders, or index cards. Cup forming will be the most demanding part in selecting the proper card stock. A lot if tenacious fiberwould be needed.

BvT

[geargnasher]

Sorry about the pics, tonight got tied up with birthday stuff.

Index cards and just about every kind of card stock, triplicate backer, heavy bond sketch pad, all came in at .008" and didn't work well. The Manilla folder at .010" worked well, I'll keep experimenting. I actually used the Felix lube to hold the check on the boolit, which required sizing to get lube on the base, then sticking the preformed check cup on and running it through the sizer again to lube the grooves and iron on the check. This is time consuming and the checks start to fall off after a day or two.

When fired even the tough manilla stock is nothing but a poof of fiber dust, you can see it well in the sun.

I have a couple thousand Hornady checks on standby, but I'm a cheapskate and this just keeps luring me along, especially since so far it doesn't take any special tools to make the paper checks other than a good hole punch. Keep the ideas coming, and I'll get some photos up soon.

Gear

[geargnasher]

I have also used computer labels as paperchecks.Total failure,but they stuck on without glue.I am curious where this will go for you.I shot over 6,000 Pope 308403's the last three years in US Military 30-06's trying to get rid of oddball flyers caused by goofy carbon/lead/lube fouling in the throat.
I tried wads,lube changes,alloys etc... and never really could see a consistent relationship between the small changes.I did noticed that harder bullets shot as well or better than softer ones.That could have been because of the larger size.I even made a breach seater on a recommendation of Schuetzen shooter.Best grouping for 10 shots at 100 yards was just 1" and average was closer to 2-1/4".Other bullets besides the Pope shot with similar accuracy.

PB Bullets tried-

SAECO's #630,#529,#540,Modern Bond #311145 & #870,Ideal 308241,Ideal 308259 (stop ring bullet) , Ideal 311410 HP and solid,SAECO Darr 150,Hoch 200,Hoch 155,LBT 200 PB,311284 PB'ed,Barnett 200g,and recently a Mountain Mold 311 x 225g.

HMP

Looks like you've given it a pretty good go, there. I think your issue is with launch, not boolit design. What powders have you tried?

Fouling in the throat and the first couple inches of barrel has been my #1 issue in, particularly lead and carbon fouling, and in one case the aforementioned flour/lube fouling. I'm convinced that the boolit loses seal just as it gets moving and the throat gets a blast of combustion gas before it comes up to full pressure, creating a bit of lead dust and partially burned carbon and lube to jet out ahead of the boolit. The addition of Dacron filler helped slightly, but not much. Using really slow pistol powder helped some, but didn't eliminate leading until less than 1100 fps. The paper check does something at launch that completely eliminates any visible fouling in the throat, leaving a shiny, dry bore with no soot or carbon to speak of, almost like the gun was fired with a paper-patched boolit.

Gear