Odd Copper Bullets

[Westwindmike]

A friend of mine ran across these solid copper bullets a few years back and saved 3 of them. Just wondering if anybody recognized them. They almost look like they were turned on a lathe, but could have been made some other way.

Any ideas? They are .452 and weigh 100 gr.
Thanks.

[SWANEEDB]

They look like the beginings of the glaser safety slugs, I did have a bunch of them a few yrs back when they were made in Ca.

[ReloaderFred]

They're also very similar to the round PMC developed about 10 or so years ago. The ATF wouldn't let them sell them, since they considered them handgun "armored vest defeating" rounds.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Westwindmike]

Thanks for the replies. He shot all the others but saved these 3 for his collection. He said he got really good velocity out of his .45 Colt with them.

[MakeMineA10mm]

They're also very similar to the round PMC developed about 10 or so years ago. The ATF wouldn't let them sell them, since they considered them handgun "armored vest defeating" rounds.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Fred must've been a little tired when he typed this, because I'm sure he meant to say the ATF made PMC stop selling them... I bought a box of them in 44 Special when they came out.

Those bullets in your picture look a LOT like the PMC bullets, but they are not PMCs. There is one major design difference (which is what made the problem from the ATF's point of view) with the PMCs.

My bet is that someone did turn those down on a lathe in an effort to copy the PMCs in a less-objectionable way per ATF tests/regulations. I seem to remember another company who made gigantic-HP solid-copper bullets. I think they specialized in the 444 Marlin. Gonic? Can't remember off top of my head.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Almost remind me of welding machine tips.Robert

[xjda68]

A friend of mine ran across these solid copper bullets a few years back and saved 3 of them. Just wondering if anybody recognized them. They almost look like they were turned on a lathe, but could have been made some other way.

Any ideas? They are .452 and weigh 100 gr.
Thanks.

Personal Protection Systems in Pennsylvania.
.45Colt solid copper HP ammo (MRP-45LC). 95 grain 2,000 FPS. These came in little clear plastic clam-shell style cases.
PPS was a small company run by Arron J Lippman… who was busted by the BATFE for class 3 ,AOW and other weapons violations and did federal time.

Hi-Vel made some all copper rounds for PPS called MSC, MAP, MMC, etc… They were in 25 ACP up to 45ACP. Hi-Vel is still around.
PPS made very few if any of the items they sold. You can sometimes find just the bullets for sale.

Joe

[HWooldridge]

Definitely produced on a machining center - you can see the tool marks.

Straight copper is hard to machine - it's quite gummy.

[rolltide999]

xjda68 is quite correct. The first iteration of these PPS bullets were solid brass and even the 25acp version was said to defeat body armor, therefore the BATF took serious exception and quickly invented regulations to prohibit them. The second generation were solid copper which is what is pictured above. I am not sure if the copper ones were outlawed as well. I haven't seen those things since the 1980's.

If memory serves, the PMC rounds were similar, but were actually tubular with no bottom. They were loaded on top of a piece of plastic (sort of like a miniature caliber sized plastic wad) that pushed the tubular projectile out of the case when fired and was shed like a shotgun wad as soon as it left the barrel. I don't think the PMC design ever proved to be anything more than a gimmicky "futuristic" looking round.

These were the first 2 versions of monolithic projectiles I ever recall seeing. Quite unique in their day.

PPS's got buried by the BATF because they were too effective, whereas the PMC got buried under its own weight for not being effective enough.

Wow, you got to be older than dirt to remember this stuff. I guess my kids were right about my age after all.

Not sure how common machining centers were in the 1980's. I am pretty sure these were produced on a simple turret lathe, like a Hardinge or something similar.