30-06 Converted Arisaka - No Mum !

[HangFireW8]

I'll try scotch tape now - just to see what happens....closes !
0.473 right at the base

Try each tape at half height- cut off the tape on the upper half.

If it were mine, I might shoot it with military brass, but just stay under 40,000 PSI.

-HF

[broomhandle]

Hi Doc,

Good luck in any event!
The correct bullet will always be a better pick for accurace.

A pal of mine has a 7.7 rechambered to 30-06 . I have to look at it again!
A well know gunsmith in this area did it over 30 years ago.

Best,
broomhandle

[swheeler]

Doc; You can bungy the rifle to the spare tire of your vehicle, tie a string to the trigger and fire it remote. Then you will have some brass to examine, try 4 or five with the scotch tape and a couple without the tape, you'll be able to see how your tape job lets the brass expand evenly. I'm betting the Swede chambers are this large or larger and many on here use 06 brass to form for it with the tape trick.

[DoctorBill]

Multigunner - Can you take some photos of that "Spliced Together" trainer's action
with the stock removed ?

Up close and varied views ?

Or do you know any Internet links showing what that "Splice" looked like ?

It would help many people to see these spliced barrels up close !

I would love to see (in detail) what you describe !
"Australian gunsmiths often spliced barrels to get around not having
a source for proper barrels in sporting calibers threaded for surplus actions."

Fascinating !

DoctorBill

[Larry Gibson]

Were the rifle mine, I would try to find some LC Match cases that were sold a few years back unfired with deactivated primers (LC 62 I believe). They were softer cases, especiall in the web area and fireformed to 6.5 Swede real well for me. I would wrap a thin strip of cellephane tape around the case head to keep it centered when chambered. I would use a medium stout load of 4895 under a .312 jacketed bullet to fire form the cases. Once fire formed I would then just NS the cases only for future loading with cast bullets. At cast bullet psi's and NSing only there should be no worry about case head seperation. That's what I would do if the rifle were mine.

Larry Gibson

[wiljen]

The cases sold a few years back were LC 68 Match and LC 69 (non-match) as I bought some of both. Wideners, GI Brass, and probably a few others had them.

[Larry Gibson]

The cases sold a few years back were LC 68 Match and LC 69 (non-match) as I bought some of both. Wideners, GI Brass, and probably a few others had them.

My records show I'm using LC '62, 67 and 68 match cases, just couldn't remember which. I researched my data and wiljen is correct, it is the LC68 match cases I am referring to and would use if I could find some. If not I would try some Remington new cases. The key being to fire form them and then just NS with the die body not touching the case sides at all. Since I already have one, I would use a Redding bushing die and a bushing to get .002" neck tension on the diameter bullet used. Cases should last a long, long time that way. Thanks for the input wiljen.

Larry Gibson

[edsmith]

if it was me and it ain't, I would tie it down,shove a proof round into it,pull the string,and when the dust had cleared and the gun was still there, it is good to go, if it ain't there it won't ever hurt anybody.

[Trifocals]

Whoa!!! Slow up a bit guys. First off it is a well known fact that many 7.7 Jap rifles simply had an '06 reamer ran into the chamber so that '06 ammo could be used. The dimensions of the original chamber were oversize for the '06 cartridge. If the job were done correctly, the barrel should have been set back 1 or 2 threads before the chamber was reamed. Only a good chamber cast will disclose the true chamber dimensions. I would not even attempt to fire an '06 round in the rifle till the actual chamber dimensions are known. A case rupture in an oversize chamber could produce results similar to a grenade. There is absolutely no sense in taking a chance of injury, death or ruining a good rifle action when it could be avoided with a simple chamber cast. If the chamber is oversize, setting the existing barrel back a thread or two and re-chambering may be cheaper than a new barrel. The 7.7 Jap barrels were usually chrome lined and good quality. You should also consider having the barrel, action and bolt Magna-fluxed and industrial X-rayed to reveal any cracks or defects. This is darn cheap insurance. Disregarding the funky safety, the Jap rifles for the most part were very strong and when sporterized by a COMPETENT gunsmith can be very decent. LOL

[DoctorBill]

"You should also consider having the barrel, action and bolt Magna-fluxed and industrial X-rayed
to reveal any cracks or defects."

Right....(lol also)

Maybe I should have Spiderman check it out, too. lol

Trifocals - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...1&postcount=27
This was done three days ago....

DoctorBill
NRA Life Member

[3006guns]

I'm not sure why this is causing such a fuss. First of all, the only "trainers" I've seen were all type 38's in 6.5mm and are easy to spot. It's possible that type 99 trainers were made, but they'd be few and far between as the gun was accepted for service in 1939 and put into immediate production. However, NO training gun would ever have the "type" on the receiver...or a serial number....or an arsenal mark... as it was not considered a firearm. This holds true for every one I've seen, including the two trainers in my collection.

I've picked up good, serviceable 7.7 mm barrels, some with receivers, for as little as five bucks at gun shows. Most people still pass them by, looking for some precious Winchester stuff. Find a good one and decide if you want a 30-06 or a 7.7mm.......brass available for both. If you go with the 30-06, have the barrel shoulder and face turned down to allow it to thread in one more turn and rechamber. That's it.

There's one more possiblity......have the shoulder and face turned down then insert a 7.65 Mauser (Argentine, Belgian,etc.) cartridge in there. You'll find it's a perfect fit and the right size bullet to boot.....plus you have a chrome bore! I have such a rifle, set in a good stock and it's lethal at any decent range.

[DoctorBill]

You know, 3006guns, neither do I !

This is not a training rifle.

Why some think that it is particularly dangerous is weird.

I showed a Chamber Cast !

It is from Series two made at Nagoya Arsenal.

It even has an arsenal Inspector's Stamp !

It is one of thousands re-chambered to 30-06.

Why would THIS ONE be particularly dangerous to shoot ?

I am no longer worried about shooting it.

The first several rounds shot, however, will be with a large cloth over the receiver
as I have done with ALL my newly obtained MilSurp Rifles - just to make sure...

...and I shoot reduced loads with Cast Bullets.

Not like some guys at the range who shoot wildly hot loads to show everyone
how large their gonads are. Often you can feel the shock waves hit your body !

Someone put a lot of work into it and shot it...it is still here !

Why was it sold ? Why are the Gun Shops full of old, used guns...?
Thousands of reasons.

My biggest problem right now is the weather !
Constant rain and melting snow. The range is a swamp of mud and streams of runoff.
Spring is here and usually a lot of rain in Eastern Washington State.

Here is the local "Chocolate Pudding Soil" - when wet - cannot be walked on or you sink.
It is raining in this photo out my kitchen window.


DoctorBill

[Larry Gibson]

I'm with you Doc, I also think it's a "shooter". Shouldn't be hard to come up with decent cases for it as I mentioned in my previous post. The rifle no doubt has been used in the past. Who would go to all that effort and then not shoot it? Probably used '06 or loads with .311/.312 bullets. This was common in the 7.7 Jap and 7.65 Argentines rechambered to '06 cases 30-40 years back. No problem then, shouldn't be a problem now. Just my opinion as I've a 6.5 Jap I cleaned the chamber up with using a 6.5 Swede reamer and short chambering it so .308W case are used. I've also used numerous of the '09 Argentines recambered to take '06 cases with no problems. Go for it and keep us posted on how she does.

Larry Gibson

[HangFireW8]

Only a good chamber cast will disclose the true chamber dimensions.

You mean like this?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...1&postcount=27

[HangFireW8]

Why was it sold ? Why are the Gun Shops full of old, used guns...?
Thousands of reasons

Yup. I've found plenty of used guns with messed-up crowns, loose scope mounts, bad bedding. I buy based on bore condition and headspace.

In this case, someone trying to use .308" bullets in a .311/.312" bore would be a likely reason. There is a fair chance the original owner is retired or even dead, another reason. I picked up my Springfield that way; old guy selling it for his friend's widow. (Yes, I paid a fair price for it.)

For $110 there's a good chance it will make a fine cast boolit slinger.

-HF

[Dutchman]

Left is .30-06. Right is 7.7x58 Arisaka (one of mine). Center is 7.7x58 Norma fired in a .30-06 chambered Arisaka. FYI.

[edlmann]

I have a similar gun, but the 30-06 conversion was done by setting the barrel back one thread and rechambering which is far better. Still leaves a rather generous bore though!

This is how they should have been done - but it's not always the case. Chamber case should tell the tale.

[DoctorBill]

Dutchman - So if I reload my new 7.7mmx58 Prvi Partizan cases, which I have
100 of, with .311 Cast bullets and fire them in this re-chambered to 30-06 Arisaka rifle,
the brass will fire form to fit the 30-06 chamber, but have the proper 7.7mm Arisaka base ?

Won't have much of a neck left, though....

I just want to make sure I understand you correctly - no mistakes.

That 7.7mmx58 of your loading - what is the horizontal mark just up from the bottom ?

Looks funny....bulging out slightly or is that an optical delusion ?

What size bullet have you got in there ? What powder and load ?

Prvi Partizan comes having been annealed - at least by appearance.
Should I anneal it for sure just to allow the neck to reform more easily ?

DoctorBill

[Dutchman]

Dutchman - So if I reload my new 7.7mmx58 Prvi Partizan cases, which I have
100 of, with .311 Cast bullets and fire them in this re-chambered to 30-06 Arisaka rifle,
the brass will fire form to fit the 30-06 chamber, but have the proper 7.7mm Arisaka base ?

Fire forming affects mostly the upper portion of the case. You don't fire form the case head.

Let me clarify that. The web of the cartridge case is the solid portion just above the rim. Above the web are the case walls that go up to the shoulder and then the neck. It is the case walls that expand, obturate, to form to the chamber. This will leave a bulge around the case just above the web. The web itself may change dimensionally .001" or so but you don't want so much pressure that the web, the solid brass part of the case, to expand under pressure as it will unduly stress the integrity of the case.

As an extension of this situation, in fire forming an undersize cartridge in an oversize chamber may result in case head separation as the threshold of physics is crossed. The case walls just above the solid portion of the case can expand only so much before the brass case walls break away.

What you watch out for is incipient case head separation:

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&s...w=1120&bih=524

That 7.7mmx58 of your loading - what is the horizontal mark just up from the bottom ?

My particular Type 99 has a large chamber. So large that when I fired Norma factory full power 7.7x58 in it the cases were so swelled it was nearly impossible to size them in Lee dies using a compound leverage press. When I did manage to size the 20 cases I determined that the prudent thing to do was load only with moderate cast bullet loads to preserve not only the expensive brass but in the interest of safety to minimize case stretching altogether. Those cases fired with moderate cast bullet loads did not expand (obturate) to the degree that I thought unsafe.

Looks funny....bulging out slightly or is that an optical delusion ?

Welcome to the world of the Type 99 Arisaka.

What size bullet have you got in there ? What powder and load ?

314299 sized .312" using 12 grs Unique. My Type 99 is a late war but not last ditch. The bore is not chrome plated but the rifling is standard Metford-type Arisaka rifling. It shot pretty darn good with this load. With the original Norma factory j-type load it also shot surprisingly accurate, so much so that I deemed it worthy of some additional load development with cast bullets.

You can use this same exact load and cast bullet in your converted Type 99. You should have a .311" expander in your die set or use a Lyman M die .31 to expand the neck. Some of these Type 99 may prefer 314299 sized .314".

Prvi Partizan comes having been annealed - at least by appearance.
Should I anneal it for sure just to allow the neck to reform more easily ?

I'd fire them first and inspect for case neck obturation. If there is black soot around the neck and shoulder of the case then you can either up the charge slightly or anneal the necks. At any rate when working up loads like this you can utilize neck soot as an indicator of load strength. You may ignore neck soot if it doesn't bother you. With some rifles you get a wee little back puff of gas if the case doesn't obturate enough to seal the chamber. It's not a fatal condition.

I didn't read every single message in this thread so I don't know if any of this was covered already. I'm just trying to answer your questions.

Also: you shouldn't use Privi 7.7x58 cases in a .30-06 chamber. Use .30-06 cases. The 7.7x58 cases are too short. The photo I posted showed a MISTAKE someone made putting 7.7x58 ammo into a rechambered Arisaka .30-06. They didn't know it had been rechambered. I didn't make that clear, sorry. Fortunately, that situation isn't fatal.

Dutch

[Artful]

While 7.7 cases can be made from .30-'06 cases, but the base diameter is a bit too small.
So while you will have a bit it expansion with 30'06 cases but with cast loads should be safe.
This usually gives no problem, but repeated full length resizing will weaken the case, so neck sizing only is the best practice. Lots and Lots of these rifles were found, modified and used back in the 60's.

If you really want to get an exact fit you can take a larger base brass and swage it down to be what you want but I hardly think it's worth it. I don't remember exactly what I was making but was taking the belt off 300 H&H bases for a project for someone's toy - so I know it can be done just don't like to do it.

Here's some links that might interest you
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...pe99/index.asp
http://thefiringline.com/forums/arch.../t-186695.html
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...face-treatment
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i...p/t-60937.html