.308 vs .30-.30

[alamogunr]

I received my copy of The Fouling Shot today and in it is an article with the above title by Tom Gray. Essentially his point is that the .308 Win. case is over volume for cast and the .30-.30 is much better for several reasons. He also made the point that Savage rifles are very good from the factory. It got me thinking that a Savage in .308 with another barrel in a cartridge that is better suited for cast bullets would be an ideal situation. I have been thinking about a Savage .308 anyway. The attachment method that Savage uses should make a switch barrel rifle fairly easy to accomplish. Does anyone have a recommendation for a cartridge, factory or wildcat, that could use the .308 bolt face without modification so that the only change would be to fit another barrel? If a wildcat is best suited, it should be easily formed from available factory brass. Any criticism of this idea is also welcome.
John

[MT Gianni]

If the 308 is over volume the solution would be to increase bore size so 358 win would be my choice. You could also consider a 300 savage, 250 savage or a 270/7mm on a 300 savage case. Gianni.

[454PB]

I own both .308 and several 30/30's, and use cast boolits in both calibers. What the 30/30 has over the .308 is a neck long enough to completely contain the boolit. I like the idea that no powder is clinging to the lube. However, I've never seen a distinct difference in inherent accuracy between the two.

[Jon K]

Alamognr,

The 300 or 250 Savage has a very short neck, this is not very user friendly to CB.

You can use the 225 Winchester case and reform to 30-30 basically the same except the rim size and .100" shorter, reformed case=1.900-1.930", 30-30 =2.030 and it will fit the medium bolt face. RCBS makes a die with a long expander .22-30.
The 225 Win case is capable of higher pressure. I have had this case in a Remington and Sako medium action. The Remington extractor in the XP-100 or Model 600 works but the Sako is more positive. Also Sako extractor can be installed on a Remington bolt.

Hope this helps,
Jon

[Jon K]

P.S.

To do this, you can use 30-30 dies w/shellholder for 225 Win. I would also not have the chamber cut short, because brass streches.

Jon

[Junior1942]

I wish Savage offered 30-30 as a factory chambering in one of their bolt actions. It would be a slow but steady seller to cast bullet nuts like us.

[JSH]

If you do a google on savageshooters.com, there is a wealth of info there. I believe there are several sources there for prechambered barrels in calibers of your choice.
I have a 30BR, aka 308x1 1/2 for my XP that I need to get moving on again.
Jeff

[Bass Ackward]

Don't limit yourself because of the size of the bolt face. It takes less than 15 minutes to change a bolt to accept what ever case size head you need. It's been so long since I bought the parts, but I think a complete 3 size sets ran me a total of $35 at that time. (@ 4years ago.)

[Hunter]

Though I do not cast for my Savage 110 Tatical rifle in .308 I will agree that they are one of the (or the) most accurate rifle out the box. Savage makes a kit to change barrels easily (as the barrel is held in by a nut and not pressed) but be sure and check your headspace when you switch. I believe the headspace is adjusted by the locknut that holds the barrel to the reciever.

[9.3X62AL]

I don't think the short neck on the 308 poses a real disadvantage accuracy-wise over the 30-30 for cast boolit shooting. For hunting or other field work, the covered lube grooves are a plus. Whether a boolit shank being sequestered from the powder chamber contributes to inherent accuracy is another question. My own view--this is another of those old wive's tales concerning cast boolits that doesn't stand up to the light of day. I enjoyed Mr. Gray's article in TFS, it certainly stirred its share of commentary--but as I said elsewhere, someone making a case against the 308 for inherent accuracy is in for a long contract.

[JudgeBAC]

In response to a post on the levergun thread I posted the following:

I have a 1927 Vintage 99 Savage takedown in .300 Savage. I found a brass hollow point mold on the internet. It throws 169 gr. boolits with gas check and lube. I loaded up a small batch and headed to the range yesterday. I was somewhat dubious about the OAL because I crimped the bullet in the crimp groove which made the length pretty short. After getting her on paper I fired two rounds into .5 inches at 100 yards with tang sights. Unfortunately, I ran out of ammo, but it looks promising anyway. By the way, I dont think the asking price for the .38-55 is that high given the limited number of guns manufactured. Good luck.

Indeed the .300 Savage does have a very short neck. Very limited results suggest that this may not be a problem with cast. I simply eliminated the exposed groove problem by seating and crimping the bullet in the crimp groove. Makes for a very short length but I'm seeing positive results so far with an admitted very limited number of rounds fired. I will continue to experiment and post results. We are in the middle of deer season here so it may take a while to flesh this out.

[versifier]

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but don't overlook the fact that people are shooting a lot of cast boolits accurately out of .300Sav, .308, 7.5x55Swiss, 7.62x54R, .30-06, .300mag, .300WSM, .300RUM, .300Wby, etc., and in the other direction .300Whisper, 7.62x39, .30Carb.

While I will not argue that the .30-30 is about optimum capacity-wise, and probably the most cast friendly cartridge in existence, there are other similar capacity cases that are not far behind in performance, with just a little more room in them, or just a little less: .308x1.5(.30BR), .30/.223. The huge number of actions chambered for the .30-30 and the easy availability of brass for it often leaves these wildcats swept under the rug. It is, after all, the barrel that makes any firearm cast friendly, not its chambering. Optimal capacity is nice, and a long neck is easier to load, but neither is absolutely necessary to good accuracy as many of us have proved time and time again.

As a writer, I have to say it's a great topic for an article that will generate a lot of thought and sharing of ideas. In fact, I wish I had written it. As a shooter, I agree the point is valid, but we work with what we have, and when we happen on a good .30 caliber barrel, the chambering is irrelevant as long as it works to do what we need it to do. If each barrel is a like a jigsaw puzzle to be solved, maybe the .30-30 generally has fewer pieces and we can solve it quicker, but that doesn't mean that any of us would or should forgo the fun of bigger puzzle challenges.

[Char-Gar]

The 30-30 advantage over the .308, just like the .308 advantage over the 30-06 is about 99.9% theory.

The .308 and the 30-06 in spite of their overly large powder capacity can shoot right along with the 30-30 with like rifles.

The 30-30 may be ideal, but that is no reason to get rid of a .308 or 30-06.

I have three .308s that are cast bullet shooters (Win. 88, Savage 16 and Remington 700 VS) They will all shoot cast as well as my bolt or single shot 30-30s.

As far as short necks go, the RCBS 165 SIL is one of the real primo cast bullet designs and works like a champ in the .308.

Each round has it's up side and it's down side, but all can be delt with and most of the various 30 cals can shoot cast bullets very well. I shure wouldl not lay out real money for a bolt 30-30 whose accuracy advantage is theoretical and would should up only for serious bench rest shooting.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Were I to have built my idea of the best .30 cal. cast boolit rifle it would most likely be a Savage short action with Accu-Trigger and a custom barrel chambered for .30/30 or even one of the optimum capacity wildcats currently favored by the expert bench rest shooting fraternity. Strangely, none of my rifles boast such a heritage. My poverty-stricken gun safe is over populated with various .30 and .31 cal. rifles with factory, and even military barrels. What to do? I have to do the best I can with barrels that were "made by the mile and cut off by the yard." Out of this mixed bag of milsurps and factory sporters, the most accurate of the bunch is a .30/06, so far leading a .30/30, .30 Remington, .308, .30/40 Krag, 7.65 X 53 Argentine and .303 British. Could it be that there are other factors than case capacity?

(The above written with tongue firmly in cheek, probably because of being influenced as a child by Jack O' Connor at his most satirical.)

[felix]

Bill, you must use case capacity to hone in the accuracy per given bullet/boolit, and that's all. The idea is to drive a projectile, using today's materials throughout, at a specific velocity to make a specific range. Today's materials seem to dictate a velocity selection based upon 300 fps increments. Shooting a 308 at 200 yards? Pick a 168 condom at 2400, 14 twist. Don't like the recoil? Use a 70 grainer at 3300 with a 6PPC for the 200 yard course. So, pick the boolit weight, and everything else must follow. ... felix

[leftiye]

I had previously been told that the 30-30 was a great cast bullet cartridge because it could be loaded up to full velocities for the lead bullets at the full performance capacity of the case.
In view of what I have read elsewhere as concerns the desireability of booting Mr. Projectile as gently in the posterior as is possible in order to avoid deformation, flame cutting, leading and etc. as well as to obtain optimum accuracy, or to achieve higher velocities with softer lead (Whew, how's this for a run on sentence?) it would seem that a larger case with slower, bulkier powder (which is also easy to ignite consistently) would be advantageous. As such a smaller case is perhaps even a hindrance, or is this a special purpose type of loading?

[JFE]

What about the 30 Remington ? Brass is available and not too expensive. You also use standard loading dies. Capacity is the same as 30/30 but is rimless so better for bolt use. The head size is oddball (at 0.421") but with 6.8 SPC available (which based on shortened 30 Rem) then this would probably the least problematic way into such a project. You could always start with a 223 action and modify that.
Joe

[sundog]

What makes me scratch my head and go, "Huh?" is why so many .308s are shot in the CBA matches....

Gianni has the right idea for a bbl swap out to 358 Win, BUT is that bbl available at all AND with an appropriate twist, or do you have to just settle for what is available? If that's the case, then just build what you want and be done with it.

Now, as far as the .308 not..., well ignorance is bliss. I'm happier than a pig in ----. What Chargar said about the 308-165-SIL, and my testing with the Fat 30 with a full case of DP86 so far. And other stuff in between. Read Al's last comment above. sundog

so, how come the 30-30 isn't cleaning up at all the CBA matches?

[felix]

Corky, I don't read the CBA stuff; maybe I should, but you and Maven are the ones with that ready info anyway. Just what is the velocity and boolit they shoot and at what range? Is it 200 mostly? ... felix

[sundog]

I just went and reread the article. I do not know Tom Gray, but what he had to say say made some sense, and maybe some not about neck length, throat burning, and case inherent accuracy. I think I made a comment earlier that if you wear out a throat, set the bbl back or rebbl. It's just a bbl (albiet it needs to be a good bbl). Even he alluded to manufacturers, Savage in particular, making rifles in 30-30 with appropriate twist. So, the only way to know is for them, Savage, to offer it, or someone to custom build it, but then it wouldn't be a production gun, would it?

Felix, the matches are 100 and 200. From the looks of it powders of choice for .308 are 4227, 4198, 4895, and Varget. Also saw N130, N133, Benchmark, and 748. Charges are not enough to fill the case. Boolits appear to be in the 180-200 gr range.

Mr. Gray addressed two rifle models, the Savage 112V and the 700 VS, both fine factory guns as far as I'm concerned. It almost appear that his article is more wishful thinking than reality, or possibly a little prodding on his part to get Savage to build a factory 12 twist 30-30. Which on thinking, would not be a bad idear for cast boolit shooters. Might not be a good seller for them other wise, but I don't see why not. That's a little more prodding on my part. sundog