Lee Factory Crimp die for Handgun Cartridges and Cast Bullets

[robertbank]

Catshooter put it best:

"One should not say that the FCD WILL size down my boolits, one should say the die COULD size 'em down.


Big difference."

The reason such a large majority uses the handgun FCD, is that it promotes uniformity and that is a very good thing for semi-autos. If swaging is an issue, then open-up the FCD die. Larger cast bullets will bulge the case and if that is intended/good thing, then open-up the FCD die to exactly where you want/need it.

If it smooths out a bulge in the case then it WILL swage down the boolit. If the brass case diameter is reduced aka smoothing out the bulge then lead has to be displaced physics won't be denied. Two things can't occupy the same space at the same time. The only question is how much the swagging down effects accuracy in the gun you are using.

Simply measuring a pulled bullet will tell you how much it has been swagged down. Incidentally we talking about the FCD for pistol cartridges not the FCD Lee makes for rifle calibers. The two aren't the same.

Take Care

Bob

[jmort]

"Incidentally we talking about the FCD for pistol cartridges not the FCD Lee makes for rifle calibers. The two aren't the same."

Not sure if you take enough time reading what post actually say. For example, my post says this, quoted verbatium:

"The reason such a large majority uses the handgun FCD..."

[robertbank]

Yes and if you think it doesn't swage the bullet down when it eliminates a bulge you might enlighten us as to how you think the bullet that caused the bulge in the first place maintains it's original diameter.

Take Care

Bob

[groot nadine]

Run those loaded 9mm thru a 9mm Makarov FL sizing die. it will size the base area without touching the bullet area.

I had a similar problem with my Springfield Armory 1911-A1.

[hawgfan]

I use it with .40.

[jmort]

"Yes and if you think it doesn't swage the bullet down when it eliminates a bulge you might enlighten us as to how you think the bullet that caused the bulge in the first place maintains it's original diameter."

I wish you would take more time to read posts. If you did, you would see that I never said a handgun FCD that has a sizing ring that is smaller than the loaded case will not swage down the case to what ever size the ring is, bulge or no bulge.

[iflyskyhigh]

Sorry Bob, your are correct. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Only displaced. In the case of the LFCD, I didn't write what I was thinking very well. Yes, the LCFD will swage the boolit down. I acutally think you and I are saying the same thing, you just said it better. What I should have said, was I don't think it will swage the boolit down too far, or "overly swage" it.

I got the chance to get back to my man cave and play a little.

The measure diameter of the S&S LSWC 175gr boolits is .401. I have some 180gr LFN as well, same specs.

I had loaded up 50 of the 175gr in new Starline brass, and 10 of the 180gr in once fired brass (I know it's once fired because I fired it).

Upon further examination I noticed that the once fired brass had the slight "Glock Bulge" in them that was almost imperceptible to the naked eye. I tried an empty sized case (once fired) in my Dillon case gage and sure enough it wouldn't fit. This was sizing it with my Dillon sizing die. I thought I had run ALL 10 of the loaded rounds through the case gauge, but I guess I hadn't. Needless to say, I pulled all 10 of those rounds and found that the crimp I put on did in fact did cut into the boolit with a "roll" type crimp. No good.

Next looked at the 175gr in the new Starline brass. Upon further examination they looked okay. I wasn't happy with them, but I didn't think they would be dangerous. They were a starting load of 7gr's of AA#5. I took them to the range last night and fired them. The shot fine in the LW barrel, but the gun had a difficult feeding them as they were still a little tight and the powder charge was so light. I then tried them in the factory Glock barrel and they fed and shot fine. With such a light load I don't think they bulged at all even in the sloppy factory barrel. Accuracy was very good in both barrels with very little leading.

I also received the Lee .40/10mm 4 die set last night and Lee "Bulge Buster" kit. Cleaned the dies this morning (dripping with oil from the factory) and set them up. First thing I did was run some of the once fired brass through the "Bulge Buster", which is the LFCD used with a little push through kit from Lee. This was the brass I had already run through my Dillon sizing die, but still had the ever so slight bulge at the base. I checked it again before I ran it through the Bulge Buster, and it would not fit in the Dillon case gauge, and most certainly would not fit in the LW barrel. The Glock barrel it SO sloppy that it pretty much still dropped right in even with bulge. After running it though the Bulge Buster, it went into both barrels and the case gauge smooth as silk.

My next experiment was to run a piece of the once fired bulged brass through the Lee sizing die that came with the set and see if did a better job of sizing the case down to the base than my Dillon dies does. It does. The once fired piece of brass that would not fit in the case gauge when sized with the Dillon die will fit when sized with the Lee die. The Lee dies feel and look cheap when compared to the Dillon dies, but the Lee dies do in fact size "further down" than the Dillon dies. I forgot to measure the outside of the case after sizing. Sorry. The Lee 4 die set is about $40 (with the LFCD) and the Dillon 3 die set is about $65, and in terms of build quality it is apparent. I'm not gonna say one is better than the other for this or that, only that they do in fact size differently and Dillon's are built better.

Moving on to the LFCD which is the point of this thread, sorry for the diversion but I feel like it's all kind of intertwined. I used the Lee die to size, Dillon dies for powder drop and bullet seating, and the Dillon crimp die. The round still wouldn't drop into the LW barrel. Next I tried the Lee die to size, Dillon dies for powder drop and bullet seating, and LFCD. I set it for just barely take the bell out of the case. Round drops into the LW barrel no problem. Round measure .423 at the mouth and .425 at the base, which according to the manual it is supposed too. I am assuming this leaves the bullet at about .401. I haven't pulled one yet to check. Had to take the kids to the library. The same holds true even if I use the Dillon die to size. If I run it through the LFCD it will drop into the LW barrel.

So, the answer to the question is yes. The LFCD will make a round chamber even in the tightest barrel. Based on my earlier results I will assume since these rounds are a little "cleaner" then my first ones these will shoot as well or better with great accuracy (shooter dependent) and little to no leading.

I am very happy with the Lee 4 die set including the Lee Factory Crimp Die and Bulge Buster kit. For what it does and what it costs I am rating it a great value.

I forgot to mention that Lee advertises that you can run loaded ammo through the Bulge Buster. I tried this as well and it works as advertised. The Bulge Buster Kit is a great value at less than $20 if you are going to get the LFCD. You must have the correct LFCD for the Bulge Buster to work.

I am not going to say it is appropriate for every situation, and your results may vary. But if you are having similar problems I would say get it and try and it. You can pick up the LFCD by itself for less than $20. I purchased the 4 die set because I wanted the powder through expanding die as well, and in this case when you look at what these cost separately, the 4 die set is a great value.

Hope this helps someone else having the same problems out.

Ryan

[robertbank]

Ryan your experience mirrors mine as it relates to the Dillon dies vs the Lee. As a matter of interest what generation of Glock do you have. Since the Gen 3's the case support is pretty good and as much as most pistols I have run into.

Take Care

Bob

[iflyskyhigh]

Bob,

They are both late model Gen 3's.

The Glock 34 is about 2 years old. But there really doesn't seem to be a problem with 9MM.

The Glock 20 is only about a month old.

The newer barrel's are better, but there is still a little tiny area at the base of the entry to the throat for the cases to bulge. Like I said, my bugled cases were so slight, it was almost hard to see it, but it was there.

I was really surprised that the support on my LW barrel is exactly the same as my factory barrel. The only difference is the LW barrel is a lot tighter in down the the rest of the throat. There is still that little exposed exposed at the base though. I guess this is new to LW barrels. I saw some pictures and videos of older LW barrels where the was little to no exposed area at the entry to the base of the throat. I guess some of the other after market Glock barrels are still fully supported. I'm a little disappointed with the LW.

Ryan

[robertbank]

Ryan if I were you I would get hold of Lone Wolf. I don't think the chamber should be as tight as you are describing frankly. It serves no purpose. I have a Tanfoglio and two M&P's in .40cal and have never experienced the problems you are having. Most of my .40cal brass is from Glocks and even using Dillon Dies I have not has any problems chambering the cases. I size all my lead boolits .401 and even with the bulge they feed like hot butter.

Something to think about.

Take Care

Bob

[iflyskyhigh]

Ryan if I were you I would get hold of Lone Wolf. I don't think the chamber should be as tight as you are describing frankly. It serves no purpose. I have a Tanfoglio and two M&P's in .40cal and have never experienced the problems you are having. Most of my .40cal brass is from Glocks and even using Dillon Dies I have not has any problems chambering the cases. I size all my lead boolits .401 and even with the bulge they feed like hot butter.

Something to think about.

Take Care

Bob

I'm with you. I think I am going to send it back. I'm just not happy with it. Everything works, but like you said, there is no reason for it to be that tight. The Dillon case gauge is right in between the sloppy Glock barrel and way to tight LW barrel. I personally feel like if it fits in the Dillon case gauge it should fit in ANY barrel. It's going to back to LW.

I did a little more measuring. I'm having a difficult time getting consistent measurements with the set of digital calipers from Lowe's. They look and feel nice, but vary too much in measurements for my taste. Anyway, I'm getting .401-.402 on the boolits. Again, I'm pretty sure they are .401, it's just the calipers. I've been really happy with the S&S stuff.

I made a dummy round using the Dillon dies and the LFCD. Measure's to spec at 1.255 COAL, .423 at the mouth, and .425 at the base. I pulled the boolit and it still measures .401. What's your thoughts on that?

Thanks Bob

[robertbank]

I'm with you. I think I am going to send it back. I'm just not happy with it. Everything works, but like you said, there is no reason for it to be that tight. The Dillon case gauge is right in between the sloppy Glock barrel and way to tight LW barrel. I personally feel like if it fits in the Dillon case gauge it should fit in ANY barrel. It's going to back to LW.

I did a little more measuring. I'm having a difficult time getting consistent measurements with the set of digital calipers from Lowe's. They look and feel nice, but vary too much in measurements for my taste. Anyway, I'm getting .401-.402 on the boolits. Again, I'm pretty sure they are .401, it's just the calipers. I've been really happy with the S&S stuff.

I made a dummy round using the Dillon dies and the LFCD. Measure's to spec at 1.255 COAL, .423 at the mouth, and .425 at the base. I pulled the boolit and it still measures .401. What's your thoughts on that?

Thanks Bob

First 401 - 402 in practical terms really shouldn't make any difference. Is this as cast or after you run them through a sizing die?

If you want to test whether or not your FCD is having an effect on the bullet after you run a cartridge through the FCD, do this. Measure the diameter of a sized bullet Load a cartridge. Measure the outside diameter of the cartridge along three spots on the cartridge where the bullet bulge appears. Run the cartridge through the FCD and do the measurements again as close as you can to where you did the first. Calculate the difference in the diameter of the cartridge. Once that has been done pull the bullet and measure its diameter.

Using an unsized bullet may give you false reading as it may not be completely round.

If the case had a bulge in it before you run the cartridge through the FCD say by 3 thousandths and doesn't after you run the cartridge through the FCD then the bullet's diameter should have bee reduced by 3 thousandths. Either that or we are testing the laws of physics.

Good luck. Glad to see you are dealing with the LW barrel. The company has a very good reputation and I am sure they will correct the problem to your satisfaction.

All the Best

Bob

[iflyskyhigh]

First 401 - 402 in practical terms really shouldn't make any difference. Is this as cast or after you run them through a sizing die?

Using an unsized bullet may give you false reading as it may not be completely round.

If the case had a bulge in it before you run the cartridge through the FCD say by 3 thousandths and doesn't after you run the cartridge through the FCD then the bullet's diameter should have bee reduced by 3 thousandths. Either that or we are testing the laws of physics.

Good luck. Glad to see you are dealing with the LW barrel. The company has a very good reputation and I am sure they will correct the problem to your satisfaction.

All the Best

Bob

The are S&S hard cast, .401 from them. I don't have a sizer.

If you want to test whether or not your FCD is having an effect on the bullet after you run a cartridge through the FCD, do this. Measure the diameter of a sized bullet Load a cartridge. Measure the outside diameter of the cartridge along three spots on the cartridge where the bullet bulge appears. Run the cartridge through the FCD and do the measurements again as close as you can to where you did the first. Calculate the difference in the diameter of the cartridge. Once that has been done pull the bullet and measure its diameter.

I did, kind of I guess. I don't have a sizer. I measured a loaded cartridge and it was .423 to .424 at the bulge and .425 at the base before LFCD. After the LFCD still .423 to 424 around the bulge and .425 at the base which are all SAMI spec. Pulled the bullet after LFCD and was still .401. But like I said, fits in the LW barrel after LFCD. It must be a nat hair from fitting in the LW barrel before the LFCD. You got me. PFM I guess?

Not sure where the LFCD is magically touching the loaded load? Your guess is as good as mine at this point.

[robertbank]

Hi

Doesn't sound like the FCD smoothed out the bulge which is why the bullet diameter did not change. Are you running the cartridge through the die or just stopping at the case mouth?

Take Care

Bob

[iflyskyhigh]

Hi

Doesn't sound like the FCD smoothed out the bulge which is why the bullet diameter did not change. Are you running the cartridge through the die or just stopping at the case mouth?

Take Care

Bob

All the way up.

[robertbank]

By your measurements the case did not change in diameter. Is that right? If so the bullet would remain the same diameter and the cartridge retained the bulge ergo the FCD did nothing to the case.

Take Care

Bob

[ozo]

As a newcomber and trying to read thru half a million posts it's always
enlightening to see the way some speak to others........it's very helpful
[with my time]

[gunoil]

heres some 9mm info:

andy @ LEE

The 9mm Carbide factory crimp die, has a tapered carbide insert. The thru hole dimension is at the case maximum neck diameter, and the base dimension of the carbide is at the maximum base diameter of a 9mm brass cartridge. If a bullet is so oversize that it expands the OD of the brass cartridge, to excess of the SAAMI Maximum dimension, the neck diameter of the case will be sized, which in turn will reduce the bullet diameter to the largest allowable, so that it will fit in a standard SAAMI Maximum Chamber.

Thanks,

Andy

Lee Precision, Inc.


Some may wanta look a lee bulge buster kit also.

[1bluehorse]

[QUOTE=jmortimer;2391827]Catshooter put it best:

"One should not say that the FCD WILL size down my boolits, one should say the die COULD size 'em down.

Big difference."






Winner, winner, chicken dinner...... all thats needed to find if the die will swage your particular cast bullet is a set of pin gauges and calipers...measure the dia. of the carbide ring in the die, measure the thickness of your brass, (times two) and the dia. of your cast bullet...compare the two...if the carbide ring is larger in dia than the combination of brass and bullet..no swaging...if the bullet and brass are larger, then something is gonna happen...it may not swage the bullet (depending on how much difference) but I'm bettin' the case neck tension is gonna suffer...and probably the bullet is gonna be swaged somewhat...

[dj454]

I don't use them for revolvers but I have been for semi auto's. After seeing several cast bullet manufacturers saying to not use the FCD on cast bullets I am going to try some with just a taper crimp and see what happens.