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View Poll Results: Do you use the Lee factory Crimp Die when loading pistol cartridges withcast bullets

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  • Yes, I use the FCD for all my handgun cartridge loadings when using cast bullets.

    574 65.90%
  • No, I never use this die as it swages down my cast bullets

    297 34.10%
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Thread: Lee Factory Crimp die for Handgun Cartridges and Cast Bullets

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    I don't own one so I can't say it works or not. I have never needed a Lee Factory Crimp die.
    I use Dillon Precision dies for my pistol reloading with the exception of .45acp which I have a C&H taper crimp die.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master in Heaven's Range
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    Didn't complete poll. No appropriate answer available.

    The first time I saw an ad for the Lee FCD, I thought it was a solution for which there is no problem. If I recall, the ad photo showed a rifle case holding a bullet with no canalure, where the case mouth had been crimped into the side of the bullet. The claim was that the die would improve accuracy by providing a consistent crimp. Unless all the cases are trimmed to the same length, this is a bogus claim. If the cases are all the same length, any seating die will provide a consistent crimp, but not into a non-canalure bullet. Such bullets are not intended to be crimped. I also considered that mashing in the side of the bullet might cause voiding above and below the crimp, between the jacket and the core of the bullet. Regardless, the die deforms the bullet, which in my mind is not a good thing. Additionally, I don't know of any bench rest shooters who crimp. If crimping increased accuracy, the bench rest crowd would surely do it.

    Don't own one, probably never will.

    Regards,

    Stew
    Last edited by AZ-Stew; 03-05-2011 at 02:39 PM.
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  3. #23
    Boolit Master markinalpine's Avatar
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    The poll was asking about pistol, not rifle cartridge reloading. The Lee Rifle and Pistol cartridge FCDs are two different systems.
    Just a comment.
    Mark
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  4. #24
    Boolit Master in Heaven's Range
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    Yeah, Mark, I know. I didn't make the distinction, and since Lee hasn't shown the difference between their rifle and psitol FCDs in any advertising I've seen, to me, all the FCDs are the same. As I said, though, if all cases (pistol or rifle) are the same length, the standard seater die will provide adequate crimp when using bullets that will accept a crimp. I know some folks here swear by them, but I've never been dissatisfied enough with the crimp I get from my die sets to spend the extra money for the FCDs.

    Regards,

    Stew
    Sig file change:
    "Obi Wan Baloney"
    VOTE 2012! Throw them out! Every last one of them! (Feel free to add this to your sig. Spread the word!)

    "...Get a rope." Pace Picante Sauce commercial, ca. 1984

    "I (did, on several occasions) swear to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, against ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic, and to bear true faith and allegiance to the same." And when I left, they never asked me to recant.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    I voted no because of swaging cast bullets, because there was no alternative.
    I don't use Lee dies since I had bad experiences with their Lee 1000 progressive press.
    I use nearly all RCBS dies along with Redding for some calibers. I also use some Hornady specialty dies.
    I always look at the Lee dies when I am shopping for a new set of dies, because of the price...but I always end up buying other brands. There are some things more important than price.

    Having said all that, I am quite sure there are thousands of reloaders out there that are perfectly happy with their Lee dies and the ammunition that they make using them. I am just not interested in spending my reloading budget on tools that MIGHT work...I'll spend my money on tools that I know WILL work.

  6. #26
    Ive had the Lee 4 die set for a year and hadnt used the FCD until I got the new Lee Classic Turret press with the 4 hole turret.
    I figured since I had it all anyway, Id go ahead and start using it.
    I only wasnt before because I used the Lee Hand press and its enough work swapping three dies and the RamPrime in and out, so I was crimping with the bullet seating die, which does the job just fine for revolvers.
    Now I use the FCD for everything.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master Cowboy T's Avatar
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    The FCD isn't needed if you properly adjust your dies and size your boolits correctly, which is why Lee could design the Pro 1000 as a 3-station press instead of 4-station. I've made handgun ammo both with it and without it, and it all looks and performs the same. Even Lee Precision says that it doesn't provide a benefit "with modern Lee dies", and the same of course applies to any decent die set that's adjusted properly.

    The only times I've needed the FCD, and I can count them on one hand out of tens of thousands of rounds, is when I didn't size my boolits down properly. There have been five rounds, out of about 25,000, for which the boolit was too fat for the round to chamber in the gun. The FCD squeezed the boolit down so that I could chamber and fire the round at the next range session. But that was my fault, not the gun's, not the press's, not the mould's.

    I could also possibly see it for heavily compressed loads, say, packing a bunch of H-110 into a .45 Colt case ("Ruger-only" load, defintely).

    But other than that, it ain't necessary.
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  8. #28
    Boolit Master August's Avatar
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    LFCD is my QC program. If it goes through that die in the last station of my press, it will run through my guns on match day.
    That I could be wrong is an eventuality that has not escaped me. I just painted the pictures as I saw them. I do not know how to do anything else. (Saint Elmer, 1955)

  9. #29
    Boolit Master Sprue's Avatar
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    I use them for most of everything that I load. That also includes Jktd bullets. We're always hearing conflicts about the FCD. My answer is; most every has an adjustable sweet spot. The only one I don't like is the one for 45/70 rifle. It sux IMO
    Sprue ™

  10. #30
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    Its absolutly amazing that all those millions of accurate ammo has been loaded for years without a FCD for handgun calibers. Wasn't needed then and not needed now, and this is from someone who usually praises Lee products.

    LFCD is my QC program. If it goes through that die in the last station of my press, it will run through my guns on match day.
    But will you win the match and if so can you say irrevocably because of the FCD?

  11. #31
    Boolit Mold
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    I use the FCD on .45 Colt and .44 Special with absolutely no problems and like it. However, the FCD's and the hand primer are the only Lee equipment I use. The rest is Redding and RCBS

  12. #32
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    I read most of the above posts, I have to to tell you that the Lee Factory"taper" crimp die has one very specific and necessary use. It is used for push thru resizing of the .40S&W case.

    .40S&W cases usually get a bulge at the bottom of the case from being fired in most autoloading pistols, and especially in Glocks, and other Glock Clones.

    These cases start out from the factory at .420-421 for the full length of the case above the extractor groove.

    A normal Full Length Resizing /Decapping die will only resize the case down to about .125 above the groove because of the shell holder shielding the case from being completely resized. this leaves a noticable bulge in the case wall above the internal web of the case. this bulge gets worse each time the case is reloaded.

    The solution to this is to use the Lee Factory Taper Crimp die with the carbide insert and with the crimping sleeve and top cap removed first before you start to load the cartridge. The case is pushed completely thru the die and the bulge at the bottom is completely removed and the case should measure .421-422 full length at that point .

    The case WILL NOT go thru the regular resizing die, as the case head will not squeeze down to .418. Tried to do it. Don't need to try it for yourself.

    Then you can run the cases thru your progressive or other reloading process and use the factory crimp die reassembled, to taper crimp the case last, which should measure .418 at the very top of the case with a correct taper crimp installed. Keep in mind you still must use your normal resizing die in the beginning of the process, to resize the case for reloading, and removing the primer.

    The modified taper crimp die is only used to remove the bulge in the case wall, BEFORE you reload the cartridge, it will not remove the bulge when used at the end of the process as a crimp die, because the case is not pushed far enough into the die, due to the crimping function.

    This problem seems to be isolated to the .40S&W and 10MM cartridges.. The 9MM is much stronger case to begin with and the .45 ACP is a low pressure cartridge that doesn't work brass hardly at all.

    You can usually tell brass that has been reloaded that was shot in a Glock and not push thru sized by the very obvious bulge near the bottom of the case.

    If you reload these cases enough without push thru resizing or load them hot they will give up and can and do blow up guns. The bulge significantly weakens the case.

    Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you load .40S&W cases headstamped FC or FC10 They have very shallow webs and are very weak. All blown .40 S&W cases I have personally seen were FC cases. I could go into more detail why , but take my word for it! Also stick with Winchester, Starline and Remington cases and you'll be fine.

    You can buy a kit called the Lee Bulge Buster that has the Case pusher and a bottle to catch the done cases, but you still have to use the die from your 4 die deluxe carbide set. If you buy just the die make sure you get the one with the Carbide Sizing Ring , as they have one that doesn't have it and you have to lube all your cases, and it is much harder to use. Redding also makes a kit like this but it is $65 and worth about $10. I sent mine back with a note of disgust at their poor QC and poorer machine work. thought they would do better.

    I don't use any of the other Lee Factory Crimp dies with the collet crimper as all rifle and pistol dies have a very nice roll crimping feature in the seating die to begin with and I don't like the marks left by the Lee die. I will buy a second used set of dies just so I can take the bullet seater and use the crimp function on my 4 station C&H press. Seat first, Crimp later. Makes better Ammo.

    Here's some pics on this subject.
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 06-17-2011 at 11:43 PM.

  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master in Remembrance


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    Here's a good read for those thinking Federal Cartridge 40 S&W brass is no good.

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=582841

    Just to let you know, believe it if you wish, or not if you wish, makes me no difference.

  14. #34
    Boolit Buddy drklynoon's Avatar
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    Surprisingly enough my kimber does not need to be resized to chamber a .452 loaded round but my dads Rock Islland does so I just lightly run the round up a 8X57 die until it chambers. This is the only case were I Size a bullet once it's in the case.
    Nathan

    Casting and reloading novice

  15. #35
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    I use a LFC die for a *few* loads when the boolit is oversized and the cases bulge too much to chamber reliably. .357 Magnum and .41 Magnum are the only ones where I have this problem, and the die just kisses the bulge enough so that they'll chamber. It may swage the boolit down a little, but it does so less than running them through a bullet sizer.

    As a general rule I don't use them. I buy 3-die sets, and add a crimp die later if I have a problem. I really don't see ever using one on a tapered case like 9mm or .40SW or one with universally loose chambers like .45 Colt.

    So I can't vote in your poll cuz neither answer applies.

  16. #36
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    jcwit: I read some of the posts on the link you posted. I've seen and or heard virtually all of these arguements many times. The Federal brass I am referring to was made from 1990 to 1996 and has a very thin web area. Much thinner than any current mfg'd brass. I have seen several of these cases that were blown out. I show a picture of one above, which is currently sitting in front of me under my computer screen.

    There is so much BS, and heresay on the Web on Glock Kabooms it is hard to decipher what is real and what is BS.

    I ran a thread over at Trapshooters.com which has many knowledgable ISPC and other high volumn shooters that reload this ammo, the point about FC cases was made over and over along with pictures of the offending cases. I found my blown case during this time which pretty much confirmed it for me. Nothing like personal experience to make you wise.

    My experience tells me That if you don't over work the brass by loading it hot , (.40S&W is a 35,000psi cartridge) That you can get several loadings out of just about anything. However pushing this round while using brass that has been loaded several times is a recipe for disaster. Realisitically if you are going to hotrod this round you need Starline brass and only reload it once, after you size the case bulge out.

    A better idea is to NOT hotrod the round at all, as there is very little difference if you can't even hit what you're aiming at. If you want terminal performance you can buy any of the hot Personal Defense ammo on the market, rather than make your own, and save your reloads for the hundreds of rounds you need to be practicing with.

    Since all case blow outs I have personally seen, are with FC marked brass, I'm inclined to believe the warnings I've heard from High Volumn shooters. I was warned about this brass early on, and after finding the blown out one in one of my range sweeps, I knew exactly what they were talking about.

    I have picture of sectioned cases of different brands somewhere, and the FC cases the web stops about .020 above the rim of the case, which is about .060 below all the rest. This is the exact place that most current auto pistols do not support the case fully like a revolver would. The reason why .45LC cases could be Ballon Headed and survive is that the case is totally supported in the cylinder, there is nothing hanging out in the breeze like an autoloader does.

    Like I said these cases were made from 1990 to 96, and most have been scrapped by now, however after finding my blown out case, I then sorted thru my 3000+ empties and found 9 more of the offending cases, I know a few are still out there. That was 9 out of 3000+ to throw away, not much of a loss. It wouldn't have hurt me to toss 200 of them knowing they were dangerous. I don't even have 200 of any other brand than Winchester anyway as they are the most popular brand out there. (Walmart)

    Newer Federal Cases are marked "Federal" and have been brought up to industry standards, and are fine.

    Since I buy Winchester ammo from Walmart, I have more of those than any other brand, so I only push thru size and load Winchester brass.

    If you are loading for a revolver these cases won't effect you in any way, but they are dangerous in auto loaders and especially 1st gen Glocks which have much looser chambers with longer feed ramps than newer guns.

    The point of this post was to show the use of the Lee Factory Taper Crimp die as a push thru pre-sizing die to remove the notorious Glock Bulge which is no longer pecular to Glocks.

    There are several videos on Youtube about this proceedure, search "removing the Glock Bulge". Click on the picture of the ruptured case and it will come up bigger so you can clearly see there is nothing inside the case to stop it from blowing out.





    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 08-28-2011 at 06:49 PM.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by August
    LFCD is my QC program. If it goes through that die in the last station of my press, it will run through my guns on match day.
    But will you win the match and if so can you say irrevocably because of the FCD?
    He won't lose the match because of a misfeed, he'll win or lose the match on his own. Ideally, all the rounds will enter the die with little-or-no resistance and the die won't do anything except give a little peace of mind. But if any are too fat, it will catch them, and August can decide whether that round goes in the match pile or the plinking pile or the pull-the-bullet pile.

  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master in Remembrance


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    Well, I tried the LFCD and accuracy suffered. Nuff said

    Went back to my orginal way, and accuracy came back.

    My story, sticking to it, whether others like it or not.

    Still seems amazing all these years accurate ammo has been loaded without the use of a FCD. Absoluting amazing.

    Wonder if the ammo manufactures use a FCD, they might be missing out on something, suppose?

  19. #39
    Boolit Master

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    I agree that it's generally a solution in search of a problem. But it's handy for a few tasks (that could also be done differently without a special die, like by sizing your boolits a little smaller so they won't bulge)

    I've thought about using one with the crimper backed all the way out as a sizing die for .45 Colt, so it won't size the cases *quite* as small as a normal sizing die.

  20. #40
    Boolit Grand Master
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    If you gauge your ammo, the FCD is not needed. And everyone should gauge their ammo for a pistol.

    The use of the FCD is as a sort of half substitute for a gauge, in that it sizes the case, but does not tell if the rim is bent or peened, if the bullet is seated too long, etc.

    Only a gauge or chambering the round in the barrel can do that.

    If the FCD is sizing your ammo, it would be a good idea to ask oneself why and correct the problem instead of letting the sizer squash things back to a second rate substitute improvement.

    If the sizer is sizing noticeably as the bulleted section of the case passes the carbide ring, you have either:

    Crooked bullet seating or

    An oversized bullet

    I would suggest to match shooters and those that must have absolute reliability from their ammo to set aside any ammo that gets noticeably sized in the LFCD and use it for plinking or single loading it into the chamber.

    A crooked bullet or case with reduced bullet tension is not a good thing to take to either a match or a gunfight.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check