Lee Factory Crimp die for Handgun Cartridges and Cast Bullets

[jmort]

"After seeing several cast bullet manufacturers saying to not use the FCD on cast bullets I am going to try some with just a taper crimp and see what happens."

The semi-auto handgun FCD does apply a taper crimp. Only the revolver FCDs utilize a roll crimp.

Now when Moderator Bob was banging on me earlier in the thread,

What are "over spec cast bullets"
Take Care
Bob

when I used the term "over-spec" aka "oversized," I tried to explain, but Andy Lee did a fine job in post #178 above:

"If a bullet is so oversize that it expands the OD of the brass cartridge, to excess of the SAAMI Maximum dimension, the neck diameter of the case will be sized, which in turn will reduce the bullet diameter to the largest allowable, so that it will fit in a standard SAAMI Maximum Chamber."

That is a "specification." SAAMI specification.

Bottom line, it is no wonder that the large majority of poll participants use the handgun FCD. It promotes uniformity and function, and that is a good thing.

[robertbank]

"If a bullet is so oversize that it expands the OD of the brass cartridge, to excess of the SAAMI Maximum dimension, the neck diameter of the case will be sized, which in turn will reduce the bullet diameter to the largest allowable, so that it will fit in a standard SAAMI Maximum Chamber."

That is a "specification." SAAMI specification.

Bottom line, it is no wonder that the large majority of poll participants use the handgun FCD. It promotes uniformity and function, and that is a good thing.[/QUOTE]

Great if lead bullets were sized and shot based upon SAMMI specs but they aren't. The 9MM SAMMI spec is .355 vs .356/.357 and as large as .358 used by handloaders.
.38Spl/,357 mag SAMMI spec .357 vs .358 for handloaders
.45acp SAMMI spec .451 vs .452 used by handloaders

In using their die on .45acp lead bulelts sized .452 the Lee FCD swaged down the lead bullets as much as .002" which caused leading and less than ideal accuracy. The amount of swagging was dependent on the thickness of the brass.

I missed this but does Lee manufacturer a FCD for semi autos and another for revolvers? I shoot .45acp in my revolvers and I don't see two different dies listed by Lee for the cartridge.

If you think the die does a great job carry on.

Take Care

Bob

[jmort]

"I missed this but does Lee manufacturer a FCD for semi autos and another for revolvers?"

Yes, there are two different dies, one for revolver with roll crimp, and one for semi-autos with a taper crimp. From the Lee Precision web site:

"Revolver dies roll crimp with no limit as to the amount. A perfect taper crimp is applied to auto-loader rounds"

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-di...tory-crimp-die

Here is .45 ACP et al - with taper crimp

Lee 45 ACP/45 AUTO RIM/45 SCHOFIELD/45 WIN MAG/45 GAP Carbide Factory Crimp Die
http://leeprecision.com/carbide-fact...die-45acp.html

And here is .45 Colt/454 with roll crimp

Lee 45 Colt/454 Casull/455 WEB MARK 2 Carbide Factory Crimp Die
http://leeprecision.com/carbide-fact...e-45-colt.html

I actually don't think we are disagreeing about the "effect" of the handgun FCD. I just open mine up to the size I need/want, so there is no swaging. For any semi-auto with jacketed bullets, I still have the FCD "blueprinted" as the die may be under SAAMI spec.

[SEXYBEAST]

What a great ten page thread! It should be required reading for anyone loading with lead and especially anyone who thinks that loading lead and fmj are the same.
My answer would be "yes" I use the fcd for all my loading, but that may soon change. My 40 and 45 loads are accurate and so far problem free. These two things must go together, they don't for my 9mm loads so I will focus on them.
I know 9mm is tapered so you wouldn't think the bullets get swaged much if any but I'm having accuracy problems and this is the way I'm going to go about this: measure an unloaded bullet, measure a bullet loaded but not put through the fcd, and measure a loaded bullet that has been put through the fcd. And then I will see if its the fcd causing my problems. Then I'll move on to 40 and 45 and use my lessons learned.
I've also bought a Lyman M sizer/expander die to fully open up the case so just the act of pushing the bullet into the case will not size it down. I have an extra station on my press so it won't be any extra work [I hope]?
Instead of loading bullets I'm going to have to sit down, take everything apart and basically re-learn.
Some bullets I have bought are .357 sized. i ordered them before reading this, but no matter. If the fcd is swaging them down in diameter then whats the point!
Everyone who reads this should do these things if nothing else for "piece of mind" that you are loading lead bullets correctly. Many bullet manufacturers will actually post this type of information on their sites and it simply goes over the heads of us who never reallly had it explained this way: That our equipment may be damaging the bullets as we load them and it "may" cause terrible accuracy problems. Anyone can follow load data: How much powder, OAL, other sammi specs etc..... But if you wreck the bullet as you either put it into the case, or as you crimp, then you are setting yourself up for failure before you even get the the range. You have to find these things out!
I guess you can say I have just had an Epiphany! After years of loading I guess its about time!

[Gus McCrae]

I use one currently, but may need to look into something else.

[gunoil]

l ask one time:

andy @ LEE
The 9mm Carbide factory crimp die, has a tapered carbide insert. The thru hole dimension is at the case maximum neck diameter, and the base dimension of the carbide is at the maximum base diameter of a 9mm brass cartridge. If a bullet is so oversize that it expands the OD of the brass cartridge, to excess of the SAAMI Maximum dimension, the neck diameter of the case will be sized, which in turn will reduce the bullet diameter to the largest allowable, so that it will fit in a standard SAAMI Maximum Chamber.
Thanks,
Andy
Lee Precision, Inc.
4275 Highway U
Hartford, WI 53027
phone: 262-673-3075*
Ticket Details
Ticket ID: JRO-839-96259
Department: TechSupport
Type: Issue
Status: Closed
Priority: Normal
Support Center: http://www.leeprecision.net/support/index.php?

[glider]

I use one for 9mm and some of the brass I have I wouldn't be able to use without one. Really thin brass that gets a bulge when expanded, the LFCD takes the bulge out and doesn't touch the bullet. That bulge will keep the loaded round from chambering in a D.W. PM9, it has a pretty tight chamber. A lot of my 9mm brass wouldn't need it, Speer and starline brass and some others don't get the bulge but I see no reason to not use the LFCD on everything, does a great job. Again, IT DOESN'T TOUCH THE BULLET, it just produces very good rounds that will run in anything.

[robertbank]

I use one for 9mm and some of the brass I have I wouldn't be able to use without one. Really thin brass that gets a bulge when expanded, the LFCD takes the bulge out and doesn't touch the bullet. That bulge will keep the loaded round from chambering in a D.W. PM9, it has a pretty tight chamber. A lot of my 9mm brass wouldn't need it, Speer and starline brass and some others don't get the bulge but I see no reason to not use the LFCD on everything, does a great job. Again, IT DOESN'T TOUCH THE BULLET, it just produces very good rounds that will run in anything.

glider with all do respect if the FCD removes the bulge in the loaded case then it has to swage down the bullet. If it does one then it does the other. Simple physics.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

l ask one time:

andy @ LEE
The 9mm Carbide factory crimp die, has a tapered carbide insert. The thru hole dimension is at the case maximum neck diameter, and the base dimension of the carbide is at the maximum base diameter of a 9mm brass cartridge. If a bullet is so oversize that it expands the OD of the brass cartridge, to excess of the SAAMI Maximum dimension, the neck diameter of the case will be sized, which in turn will reduce the bullet diameter to the largest allowable, so that it will fit in a standard SAAMI Maximum Chamber.
Thanks,
Andy
Lee Precision, Inc.
4275 Highway U
Hartford, WI 53027
phone: 262-673-3075*
Ticket Details
Ticket ID: JRO-839-96259
Department: TechSupport
Type: Issue
Status: Closed
Priority: Normal
Support Center: http://www.leeprecision.net/support/index.php?

I guess most manufacturers ignore SAAMI max specs for 9MM chambers because the bulge in all my 9MM cases caused by .356 and .357 lead boolits all chamber in every one of my 9MM guns like butter. The bulge in question would be eliminated if I ran the loaded cases through the FCD and as Andy says the bullet would be swagged down to a smaller diameter. The FCD does a number on .356 plated bullets as well.

Take Care

Bob

[glider]

I beg to differ, I have pulled and measured, the only part of that die that contacts the bullet is the crimp portion and you adjust that for the crimp you want. 9MM is the only caliber I use it on because that's the only one I need to. If you took the crimping part of the die out it would only remove the bell, you've got 2 different things going on with that die. I usually load 125gr LSWCs from MBC sized at .356, last night I loaded some 115gr TMJRN sized at .355, on the cases with a bulge you can feel the die smooth the bulge out and then feel the crimp applied, 2 separate actions. The vast majority of the time the LFCD isn't needed but sometimes it's exactly what you need.

[357mags]

Set properly, the crimp die will not size down a loaded cartridge.

[glider]

Well sir, I realize we're not talking about the same thing. If the die did only 1 thing you would be right. The bulge I'm talking about isn't where the bullet is seated and it is created when expanding not when seating. Perhaps I just have one that does what it's supposed to but I can only comment on my experience. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[robertbank]

Ahyou are right if you are just talking about the belling you applied. After you seat the bullet you likely will see a slight bulge in your case from the mouth of the case down to the bottom where the bullet seated depth ends. If that bulge is removed from your case after you run it throughthe FCD then your bullet would be sized down. The 9MM cartridge only requires a taper crimp ie when you look at the case there should be no evidence of the bell you applied prior to seating the bullet. The case mouth is not crimped into the bullet like you might do for a rifle cartridge aka rolled crimp. If you are bulging your case on the down stroke of your press with the FCD then you have the die set to deep.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

Set properly, the crimp die will not size down a loaded cartridge.

The pistol FCD will and does. Don`t confuse the pistol FCD with the excellent FCD for rifles.

Take Care

Bob

[glider]

Bob , what's happening is I have some really thin brass, maybe 1/3 of my 9mm brass and it will bulge when expanded. The rest of my brass is fine, Speer, Starline, WWW, and some R.P. works fine. The dies are set properly, it's the brass. I am able to use the thin brass using the LFCD, if not for that die I'd have to pitch the thin stuff and I'm pretty cheap when it comes to brass. I expect that stuff will start splitting before many more reloads but as long as it's serviceable I'll use it. If someone said that there is no need for a LFCD unless something is wrong I would agree, in my case what's wrong is some marginal brass. That die allows me to use that brass. I've measured the case after sizing, I've measured and polished the expander. I've deburred the cases and I've lubed the cases inside and out, it's the brass!

[robertbank]

glider how many cases are like that. PM your address and I will send down an equal amount of once fired 9MM brass (Win). If that brass is expanding to much when you bell the case you run the risk of bullet set back if that is what the problem is. It sounds to me like you have the FCD to low causing the die to start a roll crimp. This action would loosen the brass as it bends outward. If this isnt the case and you really do have some thin brass I would sooner replace it for you on the provision you toss or recycle the brass. Bullet set back can cause significant damage if it drives the pressure to high or you were to compress a ball powder due to the set back.

Take Care

Bob

[glider]

I appreciate the offer. The bulge is usually about half way between where the base of the bullet would be and the base of the case. It is created when I expand and bell the case, not when I seat the bullet . Neck tension is fine. Since 9mm is a high pressure round I probably should pitch those cases . It's like you put them in a vise and squeezed them until a small bulge appeared, weird. I have thought of several things that could cause them to do that but have worked my way through all of them and the only explanation left is week/thin brass. I never have the problem with Speer or starline and a few others. The LFCD does eliminate the bulge and produces a round that looks factory with the amount of crimp I want. By the way, those rounds with the small bulge might chamber in another pistol, the Dan Wesson PM9 has a tight chamber and your ammo has to be right on.

[robertbank]

Interesting. How much belling do yo apply and with what? I have a Dillon 550 so I use the powder measure. For rifle I have the Lee Universal that works really well. I know if I set for to much belling the whole case gets opened up. I never have had a bulge occur. What make of brass are you finding to be to thin? Just curious but what bullets are you using and what diameter are they?

Take Care

Bob

[glider]

I only bell enough to seat without shaving , as little as possible. I load jacketed and lead, .355 and .356 but the bullet doesn't have anything to do with the problem. If I would bell and not expand, the bullet might cause the bulge, I'm using Lyman dies. I'll tell ya latter what brass is doing it but if it was something wrong with the dies or settings it would do it with all the brass. I really thought that I could clean the inside of the cases and lube them and solve the problem, didn't make any difference at all. Got some stuff to do, be back latter today.

[glider]

Most of the brass I've had problems with is stamped WIN . Another strange thing about this is that those cases are actually about 4 gr heavier than the good stuff, weird ! I really think it's just worn out, I don't have any other explanation.