Lee Factory Crimp die for Handgun Cartridges and Cast Bullets

[onelight]

The ONLY reason to use an FCD is to make sure handgun ammo chambers every time, all the time. A lot of that is controlled by how thick the case walls are and how fat the cast bullets are.
??

I use the for my auto pistol reloads because they make them work in my assortment of pistols.
But I also like them because of the way they adjust the crimp and the 4 die Lee set has a better price than most 3 die sets. I also want the Lee powder/expander die. All the same is true for my revolver loads but the carbide ring does nothing in those on my reloads but the 4 die set is still a good buy particularly if you use the Lee PM and want the bullet seating die and crimp die that does not need lock rings to adjust. They just have features that I like. Just personal preference .
If I have a situation where I need a different die if I don't already have one I will get it.

[robertbank]

When i bulge bust unknown brass i have to take the crimp apart and put in the part they sell for truing ( glocked brass) . Are you saying it swadges bullets under normal crimping? I wouldn't think it would do that. If it sizing brass to be true, and it is hitting your lead I would think your lead maybe over sized? Its late so maybe i misunderstand

Dan lead bullets are usually sized .001 or .002 over bore. For 9MM that would be either .356 or .357, Plated/FMJ are usually .355. When you load a cast bullet the case will show a slight bulge. This bulge is completely normal. I have at least 7 different 9MM pistols and they all feed my .357 bullets slightly bulged cases with ease.

When you see the bulge when you load 9MM and then apply a FCD to smooth out the case bulge it bullet gets swaged down. Depending upon the thickness of the brass I would end up with a cast bullet going from my preferred .357 to < .357. My experience has been the reduced bullet is closer to .355 which is not what you want if you want to ensure a solid seal to prevent gas cutting and the resulting leading in the barrel. It really galls to the physics observation that two things cannot occupy the same space at the same time. when you squeeze the case down you squeeze the lead bullet down in size.

You may not notice any difference in performance but you do set yourself up for leading issues if you 9MM pistol has a barrel with a .356 or .357 bore. I found I has a bit of leading but bullets that were not stable. Accuracy was about the same inside of five yards but at 20 yards accuracy for me deteriorated noticeably. I tossed my FCD for 9MM and 45acp that I had. I never had one for the 38spl/.357mag,

Fact: If you reduce the outside diameter of the case you reduce the bullet diameter by the same amount. Old man physics does not lie. All you have to do is measure a bullet before you lead it and pull one after you apply the FCD to eliminate the bulge.

One thing to remember as well all 9MM FCD's are not the same. Knowing Lee you could vary + or - .001. I had a Lee sizing die marked .357 that actually sized the bullets .356. I also had another die that read .356 and sized the bullets .356.

I know have my push through dies made by a guy out in Montana. His name escapes me. They are what they say they are.

Take Care

Bob

[iflyskyhigh]

Dan lead bullets are usually sized .001 or .002 over bore. For 9MM that would be either .356 or .357, Plated/FMJ are usually .355. When you load a cast bullet the case will show a slight bulge. This bulge is completely normal. I have at least 7 different 9MM pistols and they all feed my .357 bullets slightly bulged cases with ease.

When you see the bulge when you load 9MM and then apply a FCD to smooth out the case bulge it bullet gets swaged down. Depending upon the thickness of the brass I would end up with a cast bullet going from my preferred .357 to &lt; .357. My experience has been the reduced bullet is closer to .355 which is not what you want if you want to ensure a solid seal to prevent gas cutting and the resulting leading in the barrel. It really galls to the physics observation that two things cannot occupy the same space at the same time. when you squeeze the case down you squeeze the lead bullet down in size.

You may not notice any difference in performance but you do set yourself up for leading issues if you 9MM pistol has a barrel with a .356 or .357 bore. I found I has a bit of leading but bullets that were not stable. Accuracy was about the same inside of five yards but at 20 yards accuracy for me deteriorated noticeably. I tossed my FCD for 9MM and 45acp that I had. I never had one for the 38spl/.357mag,

Fact: If you reduce the outside diameter of the case you reduce the bullet diameter by the same amount. Old man physics does not lie. All you have to do is measure a bullet before you lead it and pull one after you apply the FCD to eliminate the bulge.

One thing to remember as well all 9MM FCD's are not the same. Knowing Lee you could vary + or - .001. I had a Lee sizing die marked .357 that actually sized the bullets .356. I also had another die that read .356 and sized the bullets .356.

I know have my push through dies made by a guy out in Montana. His name escapes me. They are what they say they are.

Take Care

Bob

This isn’t necessarily true. And certainly not in 9MM.

This is one of those wives tales that has persisted in the loading community much like “don’t load your own SD ammo”.

I actually just did an experiment the other day to put this to rest.

BTW I was actually ready to accept the fact that the LFCD did in fact swage the bullet down.

I took 3 types of different cast bullets that were loaded and crimped to .380”. Mixed brass was used so I had everything from the most problematic thick walled cases to the standard run of the mill stuff.

I then took a Lee FCD with the crimp plug removed and slowly ran each case into the FCD.

WITHOUT FAIL the FCD never touched the portion of the case with the bullet in it. The FCD never even made contact with the case until the bottom 1/3 of the case.

This is most likely due to the coke bottle shape of the 9MM case.

All crimps were still .380”

There is no way the FCD is swaging down bullets. At least in 9MM.

I also ran this experiment with 2 different LFCD’s. I have 2 dies that were purchased at separate times for different machines. Same exact result.

I wanted to rule out the “I got one of the over sized ones” arguments.

I also pulled several bullets and verified they were still .356”.

At least in 9MM the bullet would have to be so over sized to come in contact with the ring of the FCD that you’d have many other problems to contend with. Swaging would be the least of your concerns.

Now, that being said, I ran the same experiment in 40SW and my results were mixed at best. I found the ring of the FCD was coming in contact with the case much sooner. Maybe the the bottom 1/2.

The pressure needed to push past the contact point was minimal so I question whether or not any swaging would be taking place.

I guess it would depend on the length and size of your 40 cal bullet maybe?

I pulled several of the bullets and they were still .401” if that tells you anything, and again I did this with 2 40 SW FCD’s to rule out the same argument.

I haven’t done this experiment with 45 yet as I don’t have the need to load them right now. But I will when the time comes.

All that being said, I still use Dillon crimp dies with everything but SD rounds…just to show my unbiasedness.

[robertbank]

iflyskyhigh not so fast there padna. Whoa up. Did your case have a bulge in it caused by the bullet? If not your experiment means nothing. If it did and the FCD did not touch the side of the case where the bulge from the bullet was as you say, then you did not smooth out the bulge caused by the bullet. Try again with a 9MM case with a bulge caused by the bullet.

This is not rocket science. If the FCD smooths out the bulge in the case caused by the bullet it will size down the bullet. You can't do one without the other happening.

Glock bulge has been mentiined in this thread. The classic Glock bulge at the base of the case was a feature of the Gen 1 and Gen2 Glocks. Since part way through the Gen3's Glock began producing barrels that support the case as well as any do at the six o'clock position. I would suspect most of the Gen 1 and Gen2 Glocks have been retired and gone to polymer heaven by now but maybe not.

Take Care

Bob

[iflyskyhigh]

iflyskyhigh not so fast there padna. Whoa up. Did your case have a bulge in it caused by the bullet? If not your experiment means nothing. If it did and the FCD did not touch the side of the case where the bulge from the bullet was as you say, then you did not smooth out the bulge caused by the bullet. Try again with a 9MM case with a bulge caused by the bullet.

This is not rocket science. If the FCD smooths out the bulge in the case caused by the bullet it will size down the bullet. You can't do one without the other happening.

Glock bulge has been mentiined in this thread. The classic Glock bulge at the base of the case was a feature of the Gen 1 and Gen2 Glocks. Since part way through the Gen3's Glock began producing barrels that support the case as well as any do at the six o'clock position. I would suspect most of the Gen 1 and Gen2 Glocks have been retired and gone to polymer heaven by now but maybe not.

Take Care

Bob

Bob

I was very clear and concise tiger, and the experiment was pretty conclusive. Please go back and reread my post. Read it slowly. You’re correct. It’s not rocket science.

If there was going to be a “bulge” in the case caused by the bullet it would have been present in this experiment.

How do you get a “bulge” caused by the bullet? Other than the bullet being oversized.

I’ll entertain the fact that maybe I’m not understanding what your saying.

I’m not sure what could “induce” the bulge your looking for other than the bullet being oversized (.356 or larger)?

I loaded oversized cast bullets into mixed brass cases. Some thick walled. Some thin walled.

Crimped to .380 (leaving the crimp at max SAMI specs). That way I’d know if the carbide ring was making contact at the widest part of the area where the bullet is seated.

Spoiler alert. It did make contact. Not once. Ever.

I guess if your loading .358-.359 or larger bullets then maybe they’d bulge the case to point where it would come into contact with the carbide ring? But other than that, not happening.

[robertbank]

What size do you think we size our lead 9MM bullets? Nobody to my knowledge sizes them .355 like the plated or FMJ bullets are. We all size them either .356 or .357. Bullets sized as such cause a slight bulge in the 9MM case. Sized to either .356 or .357 they will run through every 9MM I own. The benefit sizing the bullets .356 ir .357 will ensure a tight fit of the bullet to the bore. When this occurs along with proper lube leading from gas cutting or tumbling from under sized bullets to bore is virtually eliminated. I do digress you probably already new that.

What folks use the FCD designed for pistol cartridges for is to run their bulged cases through the FCD to smooth out the bulged case. When they do that the reduce the size of the cast bullet. Properly resized the 9MM case will bulge out a bit when using lead bullets sized .356 or .357. If they don't in your universe you are indeed unique.

I am not sure you understand the issue.

Take Care

Bob

[iflyskyhigh]

What size do you think we size our lead 9MM bullets? Nobody to my knowledge sizes them .355 like the plated or FMJ bullets are. We all size them either .356 or .357. Bullets sized as such cause a slight bulge in the 9MM case. Sized to either .356 or .357 they will run through every 9MM I own. The benefit sizing the bullets .356 ir .357 will ensure a tight fit of the bullet to the bore. When this occurs along with proper lube leading from gas cutting or tumbling from under sized bullets to bore is virtually eliminated. I do digress you probably already new that.

What folks use the FCD designed for pistol cartridges for is to run their bulged cases through the FCD to smooth out the bulged case. When they do that the reduce the size of the cast bullet. Properly resized the 9MM case will bulge out a bit when using lead bullets sized .356 or .357. If they don't in your universe you are indeed unique.

I am not sure you understand the issue.

Take Care

Bob

Jesus Christ this is painful.

You obviously haven’t read my post. Or maybe you have? At this point not sure.


MY .356 AND .357 BULLETS GO THROUGH THE LFCD WITHOUT BEING TOUCHED.

Not sure how much simpler to make it.

I’m guessing you haven’t actually tried it and are just assuming it your hypothesis. I think you might have a predisposition and personal bias towards believing something is true without actually testing it out?

OR if you have and you bullets are getting swaged it’s one of two things.

1-you are unlucky and got the undersized LFCD.

2-Your terrible at reloading.

Good day sir.

For the rest of you. FCD will most likely not swage you bullet, at least in 9MM.

[iflyskyhigh]

Jesus Christ this is painful.

You obviously haven’t read my post. Or maybe you have? At this point not sure.

MY .356 AND .357 BULLETS GO THROUGH THE LFCD WITHOUT BEING TOUCHED.

Not sure how much simpler to make it.

I’m guessing you haven’t actually tried it and are just assuming it your hypothesis.

OR if you have and you bullets are getting swaged it’s one of two things.

1-you are unlucky and got the undersized LFCD.

2-Your terrible at reloading.

Good day sir.

For the rest of you. FCD will not swage you Bullet.

What I really should have said was run the experiment yourself and see.

[bruce381]

me they size down my .452 45 ACP bullets to 450-451. as such I will not use BUT it looks like maybe the 45 LC is few tho larger per SAMMI so I may buy of those to try for 45 ACP.

[iflyskyhigh]

me they size down my .452 45 ACP bullets to 450-451. as such I will not use BUT it looks like maybe the 45 LC is few tho larger per SAMMI so I may buy of those to try for 45 ACP.

I believe that.

My findings may only apply to 9MM.

Like I said, with the 40 S&W it didn’t have the same interaction with the carbide ring as it did with the 9MM. And as stated I believe this to be due to the shape of the 9MM case which is unique.

It didn’t swage the 401 bullet, but I can see how it may depending on the other factors described.

This would also probably hold true with 45 Auto.

[robertbank]

9MM Win Case after firing inside diameter..332384
9MM Win Case after sizing using a Dillion Sizing and Decapping Die .345 OD .374
9MM Win Case after loading a 356492 bullet sized .357 using a Magna sizing and lube die .379 at the mouth
9MM Win Case after loading a 356492 bullet sized .357 using a Magna sizing and lube die .377 below the bulge in the case
If you r FCD is .380 then it will as you say not touch the the case until it reaches near the bottom of the case. Just above the webbing the finished case measures .387. I assume your FCD does not go that far down in the tapered case. Any FCD for the 9MM made to .376 or less will remove the bulge in the case. A case that remains below SAMMI specs.

There is Christ happy now. Sizing lead bullets .356 or .357 will leave a slight bulge in the case which will be more or less pronounced depending on case wall thickness and the sizing dies you are using to size the bullets. I quit using Lee sizing dies because of there "acceptable factory tolerances".

The bulge is more pronounced in 38spl/40cal/44mag/45acp and 45 Colt cartridges in my experience.

Take Care

Bob
ps All measurements represent a sample of one.

[onelight]

What size do you think we size our lead 9MM bullets? Nobody to my knowledge sizes them .355 like the plated or FMJ bullets are. We all size them either .356 or .357. Bullets sized as such cause a slight bulge in the 9MM case. Sized to either .356 or .357 they will run through every 9MM I own. The benefit sizing the bullets .356 ir .357 will ensure a tight fit of the bullet to the bore. When this occurs along with proper lube leading from gas cutting or tumbling from under sized bullets to bore is virtually eliminated. I do digress you probably already new that.

What folks use the FCD designed for pistol cartridges for is to run their bulged cases through the FCD to smooth out the bulged case. When they do that the reduce the size of the cast bullet. Properly resized the 9MM case will bulge out a bit when using lead bullets sized .356 or .357. If they don't in your universe you are indeed unique.

I am not sure you understand the issue.

Take Care

Bob

I am one of the folks that use it and I don't get a bulge with .356 or .357 bullets . If you get a bulge or not also depends on your sizer die.

[iflyskyhigh]

9MM Win Case after firing inside diameter..332384
9MM Win Case after sizing using a Dillion Sizing and Decapping Die .345 OD .374
9MM Win Case after loading a 356492 bullet sized .357 using a Magna sizing and lube die .379 at the mouth
9MM Win Case after loading a 356492 bullet sized .357 using a Magna sizing and lube die .377 below the bulge in the case
If you r FCD is .380 then it will as you say not touch the the case until it reaches near the bottom of the case. Just above the webbing the finished case measures .387. I assume your FCD does not go that far down in the tapered case. Any FCD for the 9MM made to .376 or less will remove the bulge in the case. A case that remains below SAMMI specs.

There is Christ happy now. Sizing lead bullets .356 or .357 will leave a slight bulge in the case which will be more or less pronounced depending on case wall thickness and the sizing dies you are using to size the bullets. I quit using Lee sizing dies because of there "acceptable factory tolerances".

The bulge is more pronounced in 38spl/40cal/44mag/45acp and 45 Colt cartridges in my experience.

Take Care

Bob
ps All measurements represent a sample of one.

.355 bullets bulge a 9MM case, again because of the case design which is different from most other straight walled pistol cases.

It’s more than .380 because it never contacts the case until, as you and I have both now said, the bottom 1/3 of the case.

As I said you are either unlucky and have a undersized FCD (if it’s swaging the bullet down), or I am lucky and got an oversized one.

I doubt either of those previous statements is true. I’m guessing that no FCD are made to .376 or less. That’s a large manufacturing discrepancy. Could happen I guess.

Most importantly, who cares about “THE BULGE” if the FCD isn’t touching it as we have both now determined it isn’t.

Unless you used a grossly oversized bullet, which again would probably cause other issues, and bullet swaging would be the least of your concerns.

Thank you for admitting I was correct.

Disclaimers:

This so far only holds true with 9MM, and of course you may encounter a situation where it swaged the bullet, but it is unlikely.

You’re gonna have to test it for yourself if your curious.

[iflyskyhigh]

I am one of the folks that use it and I don't get a bulge with .356 or .357 bullets . If you get a bulge or not also depends on your sizer die.

This can also be true.

How you size, and what sizing die you use can have an impact on how oversized you final product is.

Also what you use to bell and how much you bell can have an impact on the size of your final product.

[iflyskyhigh]

My whole point in these last few posts is that reloaders in particular are very prone to “NEVER AND ALWAYS” statements.

I believe the saying goes always and never statements are always false and never true.

Aside from the literary inconsistencies in that statement it makes a good point.

Reloading is one of those things where there are very few variables and so many variables all at the same time.

I wasn’t trying to make the point that I was right and the other gentleman was wrong.

Just be open to the fact that you may not have all the information, and you could actually be wrong.

I’m wrong all the time.

Most things your just gonna have to try for yourself and see for yourself.

Stop saying never and always.

[iflyskyhigh]

BTW.

I asked Lee.

The FCD is not designed to as Bob said, “smooth out the bulge” in your case.

The bulge in the case, at least as it’s being discussed here, is for the most part unique to 9MM because its tapered so much more than other straight walled pistol case.

Hence you get that coke bottle effect.

You can still get it in most straight walled pistol cartridges.

9MM, 40 SW, and 45 auto (as well as their variants) are all tapered to some extent.

When you put a bullet in the case, at least with 45 and 40, an oversized bullet is going to bring the taper at the top of the case more inline with the taper at the bottom of the case.

This creates the coke bottle effect which is so much more pronounced on a 9MM because the taper is so much more pronounced.

And probably why my experiment only really worked on the 9MM FCD.

The carbide ring in the 9MM FCD is so much larger than the mouth of the case, no matter what sized bullet you put in there, it can for the most part pass right over the case mouth and bullet.

The 40 SW FCD carbide ring is closer to the top of case diameter because there is only about .001” difference between the top and bottom of the case as.

The LEE FCD are designed as a final sizing to the lower 1/3 of the case to bring it back to SAMI spec (or maybe less).

Fired cases grow at the back of the case even in supported barrels.

Failure to chamber can be caused by any number of things but Lee determined that often times failure to chamber is caused by the base of the case not being sized down enough.

This is also why they use it in their “press though” sizing mechanism. It’s designed to bring the base of the case back to spec where most sizing dies do not reach.

This is also why they came up with the U Die. Same concept.

Now if you stick a .401 or larger .40 cal bullet in the case, or a .452 or larger 45 cal bullet in the case there is a good chance (depending on lots of other variables) that it will cause the case at the top to grow to the size of the case at the bottom. Hence the reason many people are getting swaging with calibers other than 9MM.

But as I said I’ve had .40 cal lead bullets that still measure .401 after being seated and pulled. So there is the possibility that you can get away with it.

I don’t see the need. I use a Lee U die and Dillon crimp in most cases for lead projectiles. But I also build most of test loads with a standard Lee sizing die and Dillon crimp die and have very few issues.

I have a theory (with no way to test or prove) that the FCD and Lee U die may cause accuracy issues, albeit minor, precisely because it’s sizing or undersizing the base.

It’s not apples to apples, but much like a rifle benefits from fire formed brass, when you squeeze the base of the case down it creates a small area for pressure to escape while the case is re expanding during firing. Hence the small degradation on accuracy.

And often times this extra sizing at the base of the case is unnecessary (even though I do it).

I have found that my loads not run through the u die or FCD are often times a touch more accurate. The difference is minor, but it’s there and it’s consistent.

I think the LFCD is meant to make sure that when you must absolutely have a a round that will chamber it does. But most of the time it’s not necessary.

[robertbank]

iflyskyhigh if the 9MM FCD passes completely over the bullet and case then what function does it have? It certainly not putting a crimp on the bullet and I doubt the die would reach the base of the case where the diameter of the tapered case is the greatest. We rely on friction to hold the bullet in place with the 9MM. My measurements show a slight bulge in the case. A bulge in the example that was less than 380. This is not too surprising given we are using hobby equipment. I have yet to find a .45acp case that measured .898 including examining new Winchester brass.

Here are a few measurement of new factory loaded 9MM loaded cartridges.

Above the webbing Federal .385 Case Mouth .380
Win .387 .377
Rem .386 .375
Win Ranger .386 .378
ivi .386 .377

All meet the definition of a tapered case.

If I set my caliper at .380 all of the above factory rounds stick at about where the bullet base ends. At that point your .380 ring would begin to resize the cases leaving you with a straight walled cartridge back to as far as you set the depth of the die would it not?

What exactly does the .380 sized FCD do?

Take Care

Bob

[iflyskyhigh]

iflyskyhigh if the 9MM FCD passes completely over the bullet and case then what function does it have? It certainly not putting a crimp on the bullet and I doubt the die would reach the base of the case where the diameter of the tapered case is the greatest. We rely on friction to hold the bullet in place with the 9MM. My measurements show a slight bulge in the case. A bulge in the example that was less than 380. This is not too surprising given we are using hobby equipment. I have yet to find a .45acp case that measured .898 including examining new Winchester brass.

Here are a few measurement of new factory loaded 9MM loaded cartridges.

Above the webbing Federal .385 Case Mouth .380
Win .387 .377
Rem .386 .375
Win Ranger .386 .378
ivi .386 .377

All meet the definition of a tapered case.

If I set my caliper at .380 all of the above factory rounds stick at about where the bullet base ends. At that point your .380 ring would begin to resize the cases leaving you with a straight walled cartridge back to as far as you set the depth of the die would it not?

What exactly does the .380 sized FCD do?

Take Care

Bob

Please reread the post just above your last one.

It does touch the case, and it is making contact with more or less the base of the case. Which is what it’s designed to do.

In the case of the 9MM FCD the carbide ring is larger than .380. I don’t know exactly what it is. Haven’t measure it.

I didn’t say it was .380. I said my rounds were crimped to .380. The crimp mechanism was removed from the FCD and then the loaded crimped rounds were run into the FCD. The FCD didn’t make contact with the case until bottom 3rd.

I’m guessing the crimp ring (no matter which caliber) is what ever SAMI spec is for the base of the case (or maybe .001 to .002 under)

And it is a crimp die as well, just like a standard taper crimp die. That’s what the dial portion on top does. Do you have FCD’s?

Again please re read my post before your previous post. I put a lot of effort into it, and it answers all the questions posed in your last post.

[1hole]

If there was going to be a “bulge” in the case caused by the bullet it would have been present in this experiment.

How do you get a “bulge” caused by the bullet? Other than the bullet being oversized.

Good question.

A case bulge most often occurs when the sizer die has reduced the case diameter too small and/or the loader has jammed his cases in as far down as he can jam them. Even then, if the case walls aren't too thick and/or the bullet isn't too greatly oversize there will be little or no "bulge" in the completed cartridge.

The purpose of the FCD is not to smooth out a wasp-waist bulge. It's to insure that the loaded rounds will feed and chamber every time but, no matter about all that, big, sloppy chambers rarely need the FCD. In any event, the seated bullet's diameters won't be affected by an FCD's post seating size ring unless the loaded cartridges are much oversized and if that happens it won't matter if the bullets are cast or jacketed, they will be sized down.

Science tells us no two solid objects can occupy the same space at the same time so it's obvious that nothing can be gained by loading cast bullets more than maybe one thou larger than groove diameter. A barrel is a poor tool to reduce fat bullets to fit the bore like that.

[iflyskyhigh]

Good question.

A case bulge most often occurs when the sizer die has reduced the case diameter too small and/or the loader has jammed his cases in as far down as he can jam them. Even then, if the case walls aren't too thick and/or the bullet isn't too greatly oversize there will be little or no "bulge" in the completed cartridge.

The purpose of the FCD is not to smooth out a wasp-waist bulge. It's to insure that the loaded rounds will feed and chamber every time but, no matter about all that, big, sloppy chambers rarely need the FCD. In any event, the seated bullet's diameters won't be affected by an FCD's post seating size ring unless the loaded cartridges are much oversized and if that happens it won't matter if the bullets are cast or jacketed, they will be sized down.

Science tells us no two solid objects can occupy the same space at the same time so it's obvious that nothing can be gained by loading cast bullets more than maybe one thou larger than groove diameter. A barrel is a poor tool to reduce fat bullets to fit the bore like that.

I was being rhetorical.

I think that’s pretty much what I said?