45ACP Revolver Bullet Recommendations?

[Bret4207]

My 452423 is undersized, so were 2 others I've had. However, I have 2 6 cavity 45BD moulds from the original run. Outstanding design and they shoot very nicely in my Smith '17 and Ruger BH.

[Bass Ackward]

This is not a once in a lifetime target nor is it something I can do every time I shoot. However, these revolvers seem to give me more of these kinds of targets than anything else I use.

Ding!

And they point naturally for me if I ain't got time to use the sights. In other words, a handgun that actually works like a handgun.

[Lloyd Smale]

got to agree there. Nothing feels as good in my hands as a 4 inch n frame.

Ding!

And they point naturally for me if I ain't got time to use the sights. In other words, a handgun that actually works like a handgun.

[gcf]

I have used Magma Eng 45-200-RN-BB bullets for years in my 625 Model of 1988 (Very early). I have had excellent results with Bullseye and HP38 with minimal to no leading sized at .452". My standard load is 4.6gr of BE and has shown plenty enough for steel plates and IPSC poppers. This load and bullet also work well in my Kimber Custom II.

Interesting. Having recently acquired the 625-8 in question here, & this being the first S&W revolver I have loaded for in this particular chambering, most of the loads tried to date have been what has worked well for me - as TARGET LOADS in my 1911's. Mostly, they are commercial (Penn & Dardas) bevel base 200's & 230's loaded pretty light (TiteGroup 4.5 & 3.8 grains respectively).

I've never worked w/ BE at all, but looking at my Lee 2nd, I notice that they suggest 4.0 - 4.0 grns of BE, & 4.8 - 5.4 grns of TiteGroup, for 200 grain lead bullets.

Your standard (bevel base bullet) load of 4.6 grns BE is above book recommendation, but has been carefully (I'm sure) worked up, & functions well in BOTH your auto & revolver.

I'm a little slow, but it's beginning to occur to me that I may be loading a little light for optimum performance w/ these bullets - in my revolver, primarily because that load level works well in my 1911's.

Maybe I'd get better overall revolver performance - w/ less leading, by bumping my 200lswc / 4.5 Titegroup load up, to say... 5.0 - 5.5. Does that sound reasonable?

Out of curiousity, are the Magma Eng 45-200-RN-BB bullets you refer to, cast by you personally or purchased from a commercial caster? Any idea of the alloy / hardness, & lube?

[MGySgt]

FWIW - I have found that the 625-X will take a heavier load than a auto.

What I load for in my 625-5 I do not shoot in any of my autos. I feel the chamber pressure is too much.

Brian Pierce did an articale awhile ago about the different load levels for 45 colt and 45 ACP revolvers.

For the Smith the 45 ACP and 45 Colt were the same level loads, the Ruger BH was a higher chamber pressure.

Maybe someone saved that article and can post it or provide a link.

Just be careful of what you load and shoot. I keep my 45ACP for the revolver seperate. They actually have a crimp and will chamber too far to fire in an auto - I really like that!

Drew

[44man]

We just finished shooting my friends 625-B with the 255 gr Meister boolit and 5 gr of Unique. If you remember we were trying the SP primer and he bought cases.
We shot a lot and were even clanging the oxygen tank at 100, had many decent groups from the 1911 too with many having 3 shots in a ragged hole and a few a little out making 3/4" groups. Even in the 1911, groups were a tad smaller with the SP primer.
I then shot 3 of each primer at 25 and came up with this.

[Dale53]

My target loads for the 625's (by far the ones I shoot the most) are 4.0 grs of Bullseye or equivalent (I try to hit similar velocities with other fast burning powders). I have used 231, Clays, 5066 (obsolete), and PB with excellent results. Of course, I adjust the powder charge to arrive at the target velocity whichever powder I am currently using.

Right after I got my first 625 (625-8 JM Special with 4" barrel) I ran an experiment. I used two different bullets and three different powders for ten shots and they ALL went into the 10 ring on a 25 yard timed fire target. These revolvers (at least my two) are some of the most forgiving and easy to load for revolvers I own.

FWIW
Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

These revolvers (at least my two) are some of the most forgiving and easy to load for revolvers I own.

Darn you, Dale. I don't need to read things like this!

[Wally]

In my Ruger Blackhawk .45 ACP I use the Lee 200 RF bullet with Red Dot Powder ...works very well... In December I tried a Lyman 452389... 180 grain WC...it was superbly accurate but the mold is no longer made.

[35remington]

A general rule.....

The faster the bullet is going when it hits the ACP revolver's forcing cone, the more it overrides the rifling and makes the wide to doublewide rifling marks we see in recovered bullets that shoot well. Soft bullets have no rifling marks at all in the heavies as the whole surface is removed due to skidding. Such a bullet would drive a forensics investigator mad unless he had the gun to hand.

The heavier the bullet, the same.

The weaker the driving band width, the same.

I cannot say that shooting a bullet of any type slower will make it shoot best, as there is a range wherein the bullet will shoot just fine regardless of speed. But there is a point with every design, if weight does not become limiting, that accuracy is degraded if shot too fast in these shallow groove revolvers. I cannot say that is absolutely true of 255's as there are upper limits to pressure before that point is reached for some.

I also cannot say whether bumping a load up in speed will make it worse without knowing more particulars about the load, but if the bullet is soft and the driving bands weak, it will tend to be so.

I also cannot say at just what hardness of metal accuracy is improved, as I tend to shoot only two hardnesses; BHN 12 for ACWW's for the lighter bullets, and oven quenched at more like BHN 27. But I can tell you with the heavies it's better at 27 than 12, and the bullets clearly show it.

But trust me, even an accurately shooting 27 BHN 255 at 900-950 fps will not win any awards for clean and crisp rifling marks, no matter how well it shoots from an ACP/Auto Rim revolver. It still skids a bunch.

Rifling marks, at minimum, are doublewide. All the way to the base of the bullet. Which is why a good soft lube holds down leading and maintains accuracy longer with this type of gun.

[Mavrick]

Thanks, Artful, for the posting.
I, too am playing with steel, using a revolver. Mine's not an M625, tho', but the same main problem, is there. You need to get the moon-clips to feed as quickly as possible. Artful posted the drawings from a group-buy that is goin' on now.
I've been using a TC boolit to get the speed-loader in as quickly as possible. I'm in on the GB for the pointy-boolits, and I'm sure they'll work. The TC I'm using now was a BB when I bought it, but I had issues. I used a Dremel to fix the mold, and I've been putting as many as I can to the steel. If you don't want to try THAT, send your mold to one of the modifiers on the forum, I use Buckshot, and they'll take the BB out with precision.
If you'd like to get in on the GB, and use a heavy boolit, take the GC-step out and water-quench your WWs. They'll be hard enough to work at the velocity you need. (...I think, lol)
Otherwise, I would say try one of the TC molds in the 185-200gr range. I load mine down, not up, depending on what I'm trying to do. Plates aren't hard to driop, but poppers sometimes need to be struck with authority.
Have fun,
Gene

[Dale53]

Al;
Just to rattle your cage a bit (but NOTHING but the truth) I guarantee that you will LOVE a 625-6 or 625-8. I DO fancy the JM Special just a tiny bit more but BOTH of mine are absolutely superb!! I have some VERY nice revolvers in a variety of calibers to choose from but frankly, the .45 ACP 625's work SO-O-O well that I just naturally seem to reach for them more than all of the others. Mind you, on any given day I may reach for one of my .44 Specials or .45 Colt's (not to forget the .32's and .38/.357 Specials) but the .45 ACP works SO well for me that it has become my all time favorite.

When you can get the targets that I regularly see at my age (75) you just NATURALLY learn to quickly appreciate the all around balance of the .45 ACP and .45 Auto Rim cartridges for target, field, and self defense.

I admit that all of my deer have been taken with the .44 Magnums I have but that is because I had them before my 625's. When I was but a lad, my father (who encouraged me in this madness) had an S&W Model 1950 Target and shortly thereafter the 1955 Target so I early on got to experience the value of a really good target revolver. I learned to shoot NRA Bullseye with revolvers ("mastering" the Timed and Rapid Fire stages) and later PPC with my Model 14 S&W Masterpiece with a self installed Bomar Rib (Master class) so I have a good back ground in excellent revolvers. When I lost the vision in my right eye, I had to quit National Level Competition with rifles. You might say with more than a little truth, that I found a great deal of support in dealing with my vision problems with my 625's. They "came along" at just the right time (I quickly learned to shoot right handed with my left eyes.

I know that one of your skill level will truly appreciate a good, late Model 625 (my choice would be the 625-8 but the 625-6 series Model of 1989 is just as good by any reasonable standard. Both of them (I have personally checked several samples of each) have proper cylinder throat dimensions and really work WITH you to shoot well.

Hey, pair them up with a good Mihec or NOE mould and you cannot go wrong!!!

Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

Yer killin' me here, Dale.

Just when I figure that a P-220R or the upgraded stainless Colt Commander are the greatest things since sliced bread.......this sort of thread/post/text appears. The JM just plain CALLS TO ME. No brass chasing, either--though I lean heavily toward Auto Rim cases over the clips-n-ACP mode.

Since you have thoroughly divided my attention here......have you ran any of the 45 Colt boolits like #454424 through the 625s? I was wondering how well the 250s would run at 850-900 FPS. Those velocities don't seem excessive in the platform, unless skidding takes place as some posters have indicated.

[44man]

My 452423 is undersized, so were 2 others I've had. However, I have 2 6 cavity 45BD moulds from the original run. Outstanding design and they shoot very nicely in my Smith '17 and Ruger BH.

Bret, you sound like the guy to ask. My friend just picked up the S&W 1917 in ACP. He is concerned about the pressure it can take. He is using 5 gr of Unique with a 255 gr boolit. How much Unique would you say is safe?

[Dale53]

Al;
I have the NOE clone of the Lyman 454424. I run 7.0 grs of Unique behind it in the 625's. This load is on the "not necessarily recommended" list, and I would NEVER run it in revolvers made before 1950 (the 1917's do not have heat treated cylinders and there have been reports of split cylinders - Skeeter Skelton, for one, reported this in his 1917. However, Skeeters was running loads in excess of my load. At any rate, 7.0 grs of Unique behind the NOE 454424 bullet (250 gr Keith) gives a chronographed velocity of 900+ fps. I feel comfortable with this load in my 625's. Further, I would go deer hunting with this load in a "New York Minute". This is at the level of power of the original black powder .45 Colt - the U.S. Army tests, prior to adopting it in 1873, required it to shoot through a horse at 100 yards. It will do likewise on deer, I am sure. The wide meplat should make for excellent terminal performance, too:

Here is what it looks like in .45 Auto Rim Cases:



By the way, Brian Pearce, in an excellent article on the .45 Auto Rim in the August-September issue of the Handloader even showed loads for the RCBS 45-270-SAA bullet (280 grs in his alloy) that gave him 897 fps. I have that bullet from a MiHec mould (for my .45 Colts) but consider that treading a bit "close to the line" due to the small case capacity of the .45 Auto Rim. As a further bit of information, Elmer Keith ran 7.5 grs of Unique behind the 454424 and it is published in the Original Lyman "Handbook of Cast Bullets" (the one that is Reader's Digest size with white plastic binding). The Pearce article is ten pages but I can send it to you by attachment if you are interested (I would need your Email address).

Dale53

[MtGun44]

My 1937 (S&W 1917 model made for Brazil) has large throats and would not shoot at all
accurately until I got up to .455 and pretty hot Unique loads. I stopped at 7.0
even though Keith recommended higher. He is known to have blown up more than a
few guns, but I did find that th best accy and closest to the POA was with 7.0 Unique
and 452423 at .455 diameter.

I have a new to me Colt 1917 that has similar throats, darn it. I will work up a load for
it following the same path when I can find the time.

Bill

[35remington]

For contrast, FWIW:

6.8 grains Unique, 452423 of 246 grains, 970 fps, five inch 625-3.

It will lengthwise a good size deer, results obtained from personal experience. I have a fondness for Unique in such a role, and Herco may be even a little bit better in equivalent speed loads due to a little more loading density.....but neither produces anything but small extreme spreads when charges are accurately metered or weighed.

Further, Unique shows less position sensitivity than Universal at equivalent velocities. Even in the stubby Auto Rim case.

[44man]

Thanks guys, sounds like he will be OK. Have to slug the gun when he comes out.

[9.3X62AL]

Dale--

Thanks for the kind offer, I have that issue of HL in the "stacks". THAT ARTICLE is what started all my cogitating concerning the "bottom-feeder vs. rollerpistol" question surrounding a pending 45 ACP purchase. Long, off-topic story--of about a year's duration.

In the distant past, I had a Model 1955 variant (25-2) that had a superb trigger and overall finish, but throats were at least .456" into a .451" groove diameter. It actually shot OK with castings, and very well with #454490. It went down the road in the mid-1980s, and though its dimensioning was whacked I enjoyed the critter. Soon afterward, my agency converted to autopistols, and my attention was more focused in that direction for the next 20 years or so. In retirement, the need for uber-tacticool sideiron is greatly diminished--if the need ever existed at all--so a nice, sedate, ACCURATE roller has a lotta draw for me. The Plain-Jane Glock 23 does so well as a CCW, I can (almost) do without another 45 ACP bottom-feeder.

Then again, I might be an N-frame addict chasing his first rush.

[Dale53]

Al;
I have personally examined several 625-8 JM Specials (after I got mine) and they all had .4525" cylinder throats (as does my 625-6 Model of 1989. I give them EXTREMELY high marks for accuracy. When you seat a cartridge with a full size .452" band ahead of the cartridge case, you can feel the band entering the throat. I believe that is one of the reasons they shoot so well (proper throats that perfectly center the bullet).

I installed a Jerry Miculek spring set and set the double action trigger pull to 9.0 lbs and the single action to 3.0 lbs (my preference). I also installed Apex Tactical Extra Length firing pins (I first installed Cylinder and Slide pins and one of them broke after very little use). C&S replaced it but people on the Forums reported the same thing. Apex does NOT caution against dry firing. Apparently, they are the choice of serious competitors. Frankly, I had no problems with my original firing pins in the 625's but did have misfires with a Performance Center 629 - I added the extra length firing pin and a JM Spring kit and now NO MORE PROBLEMS with the 629. So, I added the pins to the 625's as a precautionary thing.

John Taffin reports, in a revolver test, of the 625-2 that the cylinder throats were too tight for the 454424 bullet. That wouldn't especially bother me as I would just borrow my shooting buddies reamer set and ream it to .4525" like I had to do with my recently acquired Ruger SS Bisley .45 Colt/.45 ACP convertible. He didn't state, but it may have also worked with bullets sized just a bit smaller (say .451"?).

http://web.archive.org/web/200302170...nge/sw6252.htm

Here is some more of John Taffin:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n24941588/

At any rate, I mention these details to help you get the "right one" (I just KNOW that is what you NEED to do).

Oh, and here is a bit more "eye candy":



Dale53