My homemade black powder

[DoubleBuck]

I use a two piece die. Recently, I do use a plastic milk jug spacer at the bottom of the die, like LAGS; but never had a problem with powder loss, before. Something is not square or flat, or plumb, for it to be able to push powder out the bottom of the die. A deflecting backing plate might cause it. I use a two inch thick steel plate for a backing plate. An inverse beveled bottom on the die might cause it, as well. My first suspect would be the ram of the press not pushing square against the die piston.
Nobade; it's one of those pesky physics things. I can't explain it, it just doesn't. Or at least, it isn't supposed to.

[HamGunner]

I use a 3" wide X 2.46" tall Woody's pucking die with a 20 ton press. I never get anything squeezing out of the top nor from around the bottom of the die as I sit the die on top of a piece of flat steel that I lay on top of the two pressure plates.

My die set up only consists of the round stainless steel die itself, the tight fitting solid aluminum mandrel punch, and an aluminum collar that I slip under the die to allow removal of the pucks. Of course I also have the Delrin plastic spacers.

Early on, I did get a slight amount of moisture seep out before I realized just how small amount of water is needed for pucking. Now I only find a small amount of moisture under the bottom puck after I remove the die when pressing is complete.

I use five .10" thick x 3" wide tight fitting Delrin plastic spacers to give me six pucks per compression. No spacer on the bottom and no spacer on the top. The pucks come out at right around 1/8" thick, which being thin, promotes easy busting up and grinding.

[2TM101]

I use five .10" thick x 3" wide tight fitting Delrin plastic spacers to give me six pucks per compression. No spacer on the bottom and no spacer on the top. The pucks come out at right around 1/8" thick, which being thin, promotes easy busting up and grinding.

Mine only came with two, but my press is not heavy enough to use them with real black powder anyway, at least on the first go around. I can use it to re-puck fines or make alternate powders. I don't have the ability to make anything to the tolerances needed for this purpose. I suppose Woodys sells spares.

Thinking about it though - the ones in the middle do not have to fit perfectly. I can probably trace the ones have on a plastic milk jug and cut them out of that.

[LAGS]

One thing that I am looking into is Marking my BP.
I make so many powders with different types of charcoal. That I am thinking about some way I can add something colored to the powder to identify which charcoal was used.
Sort of like smokeless powders like Red Dot, Green Dot , or Blue Dot.
Yes, I do mark my containers with the composition.
But once I put the powder into a powder horn or flask , the information is gone.
Just a thought,
Does anybody have any suggestions ?

[Trapper-Jack]

We have had a really nice day here, perfect for shooting. I took the opportunity to compare some of my powder against Goex 2F. The chrono results weren't exactly what I expected. I used my Lyman GPR with a flint ignition. I used a patched round ball with a spit patch, the patch being a .020 pillow ticking from JoAnne's. The powder measure was set on 60 grains. After the powder measure was set, it wasn't moved for the remainder of the shooting. I filled the measure each time by putting a reloading funnel over the measure, filled the funnel and tapped the side of the measure 12 times. After tapping the side the funnel was removed and the measure was struck off level. The results are as follows.
Goex
Average - 1345 fps
Extreme spread - 40 fps
Standard Deviation - 19

All of my home brew powder has been milled for about 24 hours, with the same ingredients. green house grade potassium nitrate 99.9%, garden sulfur of 90% and slow cooked hybrid willow.
78/12/10
Average - 1362 fps
Extreme spread - 41 fps
Standard deviation - 16

77/13/10
Average - 1364 fps
Extreme spread - 25 fps
Standard deviation - 11

The last batch of powder is the blend that I've been shooting for the last year of so.
75/15/10
Average velocity - 1416 fps
Extreme Spread - 36 fps
Standard Deviation - 15

I'm beginning to think that the blend between the charcoal and potassium is dependent on what kind of charcoal you are using. Kind of like a carburetor on those old pickup motors. It could be running fine and then you changed the octane or brand of gas or elevation and you had to adjust the air jets to get the most out of it. Change the charcoal and you need to adjust the potassium nitrate to get the most out of it. Just one of the rabbit holes my mind goes down.

[Brimstone]

That's a cool idea. It would have to be something inert to the powder with a similar density to the powder to not separate or be so fine and light as to not be separated.
First thing that comes to mind is dyed cotton fiber shredded to a lint like size, should be relatively inert for you only need about a cotton ball size quantity in your flask to clearly see the short dyed fiber.

The fine cotton fiber should stay suspended in the mix fairly well without too much separation.

[Nobade]

One thing that I am looking into is Marking my BP.
I make so many powders with different types of charcoal. That I am thinking about some way I can add something colored to the powder to identify which charcoal was used.
Sort of like smokeless powders like Red Dot, Green Dot , or Blue Dot.
Yes, I do mark my containers with the composition.
But once I put the powder into a powder horn or flask , the information is gone.
Just a thought,
Does anybody have any suggestions ?

Well, they make things that change the smell of gasoline. I wonder if there's something that could change the smell of gunpowder?

Or more seriously, some masking tape and a sharpie to make a label to stick on your flask? That's what I do.

[DoubleBuck]

TrapperJack;
I think you are exactly right on the charcoal and I think our method of making the powder may make it require different ratios to perfect.
Every time I have deviated from 75-15-10, I have had lesser velocities.
Those are good numbers you are putting up! The tests I've made more recently, with 60 grains, in my .50 TC Renegade, with PRB were:
Willow Brown (The best powder I've shot) <24 >50 7 shots average - 1562. The velocities were not my highest, but was clean and accurate.
Mimosa <12 >20 10 shot average - 1455
Mimosa <24 >50 5 shot average - 1547 ES-9
Mimosa <24 >50 17 shot average - 1510 (Different day) ES- 33
Tree of Heaven <24 >50 10 shot average -1430 ES - 68 (several blown patches)
Tree of Heaven <24 >50 75 grain Average -1565
Tree of Heaven (different day) 10 shot average - 1446. Same day 75 grain 5 shot average - 1617. Same day 90 grain 3 shot ave. - 1703
Charmin 3ff 60 grain (<20 >50) 10 shot average -1283 spread 62. Same day 75 grains 10 shot average -1419 spread 56. I think this powder was actually a bit over cooked.
I just threw these out, so you could see what my basic comparison to yours is. It's too much trouble to figure the spreads on all of them, and I don't have them written down; but I know yours are tighter than mine and the Charmin was higher than my normal spreads are.
Good luck TJ, it sounds like you are making very good powder. Please continue to post any results you come up with!

[2TM101]

Well, they make things that change the smell of gasoline.

There used to be three different colors of Gasoline when I was flying. It all smelled the same though.

I would think that if you have only one powder horn it shouldn't be to difficult to keep track. However you store your powder arrange it so that the bottle you filled it from is in front. There are no dire consequences t making a mistake either - its black powder or Equivalent. You only need to remember if you are going to pour it back out of the flask into the original container. And even then no disaster will happen if you get it wrong even then.

Now if you forget what smokeless powder is in your powder measure and pour THAT back in to the wrong can, thats an expensive mistake. That could potentially be REALLY expensive.

[Trapper-Jack]

DoubleBuck
Were those velocity numbers you put up measured or weighed? All mine today were measured. Being that my are compared at 92 to 93% of Goex, if I weigh mine it will be about 6-8% more volume and it will be quite a bit higher velocity than the Goex. I'm using a 20 ton jack and a 2 inch mold and 93% is all I can get. I re-read the booklet on the Swiss production and noted that they are using up to 30 metric tons to press their powder.

[DoubleBuck]

Yes, T-J. All weighed. I weigh everything and put them in individual lidded vials, before shooting. I'm using the same setup as you and 93% is actually pretty good density. I usually shoot for 1.6 density, for the grain size I use. I have pressed a 1.8 density puck, but of the ones I have measured, that was the heaviest. And that was Black Willow Brown cooked. The toilet paper I tried to press 1.7, but 1.65 was as heavy as I was capable. I think if we can get some 1.7 density toilet paper, it may be good stuff.
ETA: Trap, if you add 6% to your last number of 1416 and it increased velocity by 6%, it would bring that number to 1501 fps. That is an efficiency of 25.02 feet per second per grain and THAT is a good number.

[HamGunner]

I think my best densities lately have been right around the 92-94% mark compared to Goex. My first few attempts were down in the upper 80's until I managed better techniques. At times, I was all over the place trying to figure the densities, but then I figured out a better way to get the best accurate average volume measurements to weigh for comparison and my densities have continually given me the 92-94%.

At one time I did try polishing my screened powder a bit and re-screen, and could actually see a small amount of increase in density, but I have not bothered doing further polishing as the time spent and the extra effort to re-screen did not seem important enough for the little gain. I imagine a bit more serious polishing would probably have given me some reasonable increase in density and it might be worth the effort for cartridge shooters.

Ever since I started making BP, the enjoyment of making and testing exceeded my actual needs for shooting as I have been steadily building up a decent surplus of various different types of powder. I have some early Black Willow, Buckthorn, Sassafras, and a few others. I have it all bottled up in my old metal Goex cans and thought I would just keep the individual cans labeled, but then I finally thought that I had settled on Sassafras and since I had a larger amount of it made up, I decided to just dump all the cans into a big plastic tub on one hot sunny day and let the sun evenly dry it all out while I blended it together into one single batch. TP is the only thing I have now that is of a separate "Batch".

I do not shoot for competition, nor for any other reason that would actually require any specific powder, so my Heinz 57 mix suites me just fine. I will eventually get it used up perhaps, and I am planning on getting a .45 cal rifle soon that will eat a bit more than my smaller calibers, but in the mean time, I will experiment a bit more with TP.

[indian joe]

Ok heres a test I have been wanting to do for ages --triggered by the to and fro ing on density

So My commercial comparison is Moosic Pa Goex 5FA -----38 grains in a 44/40 shell with a single juice box wad over powder

Compared to my Ctg No3 (FFFg) -----38 grains in a same brand 44/40 case both being fire formed in the same chamber and not resized, again single juice box wad over powder

So the homebrew in a measure is right about 92% weight of the identical measure of GoEx 5FA

The poured loads ? (38 grains weighed) Goex sat a little lower in the case (as expected) than the homebrew - there is 8% to 10% different in measure density and thats pretty much what it looked

Both were compresed to give a seating depth in the case of .280" - using a single action (non compound leverage) simplex loading press, and pulling on the handle with a digital luggage scale

Heres the kicker --- Both registered on my luggage scale at 20pounds give or take about an ounce - both are what I would call moderate to heavy compression - if I took it to 30pounds proly would get less than another 1/16" depth

Yeah coulda been more scientific I guess but this little test has reinforced what the press handle has been telling me for ages ----that although we are lacking a little in density in our finished powder, at the same time it will take more depth of compression in the case to arrive at the same place - identical density in the completed load and identical (or close) force applied to get it ..........................many of you not gonna believe this --thats ok ------ do an appropriate test and prove me wrong

[DoubleBuck]

Ham, oddly enough, I'm doing the same thing. I just finished drying and re-milling about a pound of fines left over after the last run of several batches. Combined them all, and already had 4% moisture added, when I decided to dry it and re-mill. Milled it all for 8 hours and am ready to add moisture and try for my Jr. Puckmaster badge, tomorrow. Then, I'm taking my four best powder reserves and going to tumble them all together and polish them at the same time. It will take a couple of days, but I should have a great reserve of all 3fff powder. It won't be all the best, but the least good powder is still viable, for me and my uses. And, once I get my .58 sighted in with it, I'm going for that illusive 600 yard gong, I have back there waiting to be rung. I would consider my powder making ability complete, at that point. Maybe...
ALL HAIL TO THE HEINZ 57 !!!
indianjoe;
Sounds like a good test, to me! You didn't say, but I'm assuming your HM powder also out shot the old GOEX?

[2TM101]

Ever since I started making BP, the enjoyment of making and testing exceeded my actual needs for shooting as I have been steadily building up a decent surplus of various different types of powder. I have some early Black Willow, Buckthorn, Sassafras, and a few others. I have it all bottled up in my old metal Goex cans and thought I would just keep the individual cans labeled, but then I finally thought that I had settled on Sassafras and since I had a larger amount of it made up, I decided to just dump all the cans into a big plastic tub on one hot sunny day and let the sun evenly dry it all out while I blended it together into one single batch. TP is the only thing I have now that is of a separate "Batch".

I do not shoot for competition, nor for any other reason that would actually require any specific powder, so my Heinz 57 mix suites me just fine. I will eventually get it used up perhaps, and I am planning on getting a .45 cal rifle soon that will eat a bit more than my smaller calibers, but in the mean time, I will experiment a bit more with TP.

I had been so hesitant to say I did the same thing.

I have settled on my formula for both black and non-black powder. I now make either 77-13-10 BP using Skylighter charcoal (I have a lot of it) or the Manganese "grey" powder you came up with, (that actually DID need the SGRS, thank you Steve), Neither of which I will have to do for some time now though.

I took all my other experimental stuff and poured all of it in a 5 gallon ice cream tub - which it almost filled. Poured it back & forth into another one a few times and then re-screened it all. Put the stuff that stayed on the 10 mesh into a coffee grinder and screened again. Then took all of the resulting fines and are-pucked & screened that. STILL had some cannon powder (2FA) which is now loaded in about a dozen 45-70 rounds.

I almost wish I had recorded exactly what this combination was as it works really well. Not super clean though, probably because of the starch "white" powder thats in there. But I have enough of it to load my .36 revolver three thousand times.

I may not be making powder again for a bit.

[HamGunner]

No way of knowing exactly what percentage of anything that my Heinz 57 powder is now, except it is mostly Sassafras and a good bit of Black Willow with both made at 75-15-10, the remaining quantities were of the same formula, but some showed slightly more ash. I think all powders that I made any volume amount of had less than 2% ash for sure as any tests that came out higher got burned up just to watch the smoke roll.

So for the most part, the ash levels are decent enough that Ole 57 will be fair enough powder. Certainly will beat the two cans of Elephant that I got years ago when the supply was tight from a prior Goex fire. But I have read, that Elephant later improved their powder and it was much better, but Goex was back in business by then and I never bought any more Elephant. Still use the cans though.

[HamGunner]

----that although we are lacking a little in density in our finished powder, at the same time it will take more depth of compression in the case to arrive at the same place - identical density in the completed load and identical (or close) force applied to get it ..........................many of you not gonna believe this --thats ok ------ do an appropriate test and prove me wrong

I think your test proves about what I have noticed in my revolver cylinders during compression. And the resulting velocity comparisons to Goex shows it as well. Our powders are not all that bad. Likely much better than what was available in many parts of the world over the centuries. Plenty of hunters and even soldiers probably wished they had powder that was at least equal to our homemade.

[Sandro_ventania]

I had been so hesitant to say I did the same thing.

I have settled on my formula for both black and non-black powder. I now make either 77-13-10 BP using Skylighter charcoal (I have a lot of it) or the Manganese "grey" powder you came up with, (that actually DID need the SGRS, thank you Steve), Neither of which I will have to do for some time now though.

I took all my other experimental stuff and poured all of it in a 5 gallon ice cream tub - which it almost filled. Poured it back & forth into another one a few times and then re-screened it all. Put the stuff that stayed on the 10 mesh into a coffee grinder and screened again. Then took all of the resulting fines and are-pucked & screened that. STILL had some cannon powder (2FA) which is now loaded in about a dozen 45-70 rounds.

I almost wish I had recorded exactly what this combination was as it works really well. Not super clean though, probably because of the starch "white" powder thats in there. But I have enough of it to load my .36 revolver three thousand times.

I may not be making powder again for a bit.

The solution to this is to make a hole in the garden at night, add 9/10 of all the powder and light it! Okay, now you have reasons to make more powder again! Jokes aside... testing and perfecting your homemade powder sometimes brings more joy than shooting. Do you agree that shooting, reloading, building and making gunpowder are part of the hobby and make it more interesting!

[indian joe]

Mine only came with two, but my press is not heavy enough to use them with real black powder anyway, at least on the first go around. I can use it to re-puck fines or make alternate powders. I don't have the ability to make anything to the tolerances needed for this purpose. I suppose Woodys sells spares.

Thinking about it though - the ones in the middle do not have to fit perfectly. I can probably trace the ones have on a plastic milk jug and cut them out of that.

yes do that! or plastic ice creame container - all it needs is a division between the thin layers of puck.

I made a fiberboard bottom and top for my die (masonite like goes down on floors under vinyl tiles) - made those two a really neat fit so nothing can squeeze past
my stuff is all scrap heap / repurposed

[indian joe]

I think your test proves about what I have noticed in my revolver cylinders during compression. And the resulting velocity comparisons to Goex shows it as well. Our powders are not all that bad. Likely much better than what was available in many parts of the world over the centuries. Plenty of hunters and even soldiers probably wished they had powder that was at least equal to our homemade.

yep ! we doin ok
one more step on the revolvers
I use screened powder there - just fill the cylinder flush to the top, ram it with the loading lever, then add the ball, makes a nice load towards the top end of recommended - easy loading procedure - and (for me) screened powder so much easier to make. That screened stuff will take a heap of compression and still perform nice - I have managed to get 40 grains weught of it into a 44/40 shell (PITA though, three compressions to do it) with good performance - velocity and ES both.
components cost around 2 bucks a pound ...........................