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Thread: My homemade black powder

  1. #7021
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    Low temperature 'brown' black willow tests

    12 days less than a year ago, I made the first test of Almar's brown low temperature Black Willow charcoal to compare his results with mine.
    Before completing the full tests, weather, life, and other irons in the fire put the powder tests on the back burner for a minute, or nearly a year.
    I finished testing it, today, and all I can say is his charcoal, in my opinion, is better than the best I have tested, to date. Burn rate; accuracy; muzzle velocity and cleanliness were all superior to all my previous powder tests.

    On 4-22-2022, I tested 75-15-10 1.5ff (<12 >18 mesh) 1.587 Density. I think the numbers quoted by Waltham Abbey, on their rifle powder was holding on a 20 mesh, but I only had an 18 mesh. So, those grains were pretty large, compared to anything I had tested before or since and for what ever the reason; my rifles did not like it.
    Both the .58 and .50 had very low muzzle velocities with my normal 60 grain heads up tests. Accuracy and cleanliness were great. However; the .570 PRB averaged a mere 1040 fps MV. But the deviation was only 8fps on 5 shots, after tossing 1 weird velocity.
    The .490 PRB averaged 1164 fps on 5 shots, and only deviated 15 fps. Again, the accuracy was great.
    I have not figured out why the low velocities; because the exact same powder batch in my normal 3fff (<24 >50 mesh) was a much different story. It averaged 1399 fps with the same 60 grain charge, in the .58. While the .50 produced 1618 fps average for 7 shots, with a deviation of 24 fps, and efficiency came in at 26.97 fps/grain. Accuracy and cleanliness were superb, for my place.

    Today I finally tested the 76-14-10 recipe that was the main focus of a comparative test. Today's test was only on the .50 caliber because I was getting limited on powder. Which has been stored for a year and looked great, but I question the year long storage for the actual loss of performance; if it was not all due to the recipe change. Temperature was 11° warmer and humidity 6% higher today, versus a year ago. If that made any difference.
    Starting with the 1.5f powder with a density of 1.62, once again; the large grain showed an actual loss of velocity over the test of last year. 10 shots averaged 1080 fps MV. That was not only low, but 84 fps slower than the 75-15-10 1.5f from last year.
    This raises the question for me, was it a loss of performance from powder quality deterioration, due to a year of storage; possibly too great density; or was it simply a combination of recipe change and Atmosphere changes? Or, was it both? The variables are too numerous to lay blame on a certain thing, but once again; my rifle did not want to perform well, with the combination.
    I had 8 shots of the 1.5f 75 grain loads made up and shot them, to see if they made much difference in the velocities or accuracy. Accuracy improved and of course the velocities increased, but not what I expected. The 8 shots averaged 1372 fps and I was expecting it to be much higher.
    An interesting side note: the efficiency of the 60 grain charges averaged 18 fps/grain. The 75 grain charges efficiency averaged 18.29 fps/grain. I expected those numbers not only to be higher; but to have a wider margin.
    Lastly, to keep it heads up, I tested 10- 60 grain loads of the 3fff 76-14-10. They averaged 1570 fps with a deviation 37 fps.
    While much higher velocity than the 2ff; the average was still 48 fps MV slower than the 75-15-10 3fff, a year ago. with an efficiency of 26.16 fps/grain.

    Almar, if you see this, I think the last we talked about it, you were liking the 76-14-10 recipe. Since you have a new rifle, you probably have tested your powder more thoroughly than I was able, and have drawn your own conclusions.
    If you have seen a drastic difference in the 1.5f powder than what I experienced, I would like to hear your input on it.
    My 3fff seems to perform at or above the stats I've read by Thompson Center, for my rifle with their stated velocities of 60 grain charges of commercial 2ff recommendations. But, my 2ff and especially the '1.5f' of Waltham Abbey lore just isn't performing well, in my rifles.
    This could be the storage deterioration we've read about recently; possibly too much density, or even an indication of inefficient milling, though I saw no evidence of it, in the fowling.
    It did do better in the .58 with the 42 inch long barrel. But the 3fff still blew it away and I'm not sure why. Maybe increasing the loads more may make it do differently, but going from 60 grain charges to 75 grain didn't show a significant difference.
    Bottom line though is; the 60 grain 3fff from your charcoal has set my benchmark of all my tests. I think had I had more powder to play with, I would have got 1700 fps MV with 75 grains.
    I tried my best to duplicate your charcoal, with my last batch of Sassafras and it looks really good. I hope to test it very soon. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to play with your charcoal.
    One last thing I noticed, the year old powder showed less fowling than any powder I have shot. Even the same powder from a year ago. I swabbed after every shot, to keep the tests as heads up as I could, but I could have ran each of the 24 consecutive balls without swabbing, with no problem. I love the way it performs.
    Buck

  2. #7022
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    Buck, thanks for the update.

    With the weather being much nicer now and things starting to bloom really well, I will soon go out and burn up a good amount of Black Powder. Been a bit since I have had the time or inclination. I guess I will go down to the farm to shoot and to gather up a good supply of Sassafras, with the sap coming up really well now. At my latitude, the Sassafras is just now beginning to bloom out a bit.

    I can find Black Willow, but I have had such great results with Sassafras. It gave me really low ash and seemed to be the fastest and cleanest burning of anything that I have made so far. It is certainly much easier to gather up. It grows everywhere around here.

    I will debark the Sassafras and lay it up for later use as I have plenty of powder to burn up in the mean time. With all the fine tuning of my procedures, thanks to everyone's constant input of their progressions and suggestions, I hope to later make up some really first class Black. I do not need to hurry to produce any powder so I am not going to cut any corners when I do brew up another batch.

    Put my Humming bird feeders out. Spring has sprung.
    73 de n0ubx, Rick
    NRA Benefactor Life Member/VFW Life Member

  3. #7023
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    Ham;
    I'm with you on the Sassafras. I made a batch a couple of months ago and told myself I wasn't going to shoot anything else, until I had finished that test.
    Since I started testing and comparing, I have made adjustments that really no longer make all the tests heads up equal. I've changed screens and procedures, set my chronograph differently; started making the charcoal lower temp and using different pressing techniques. Plus, the first tests, for a couple of years, I had no chrono, so I used different parameters, for the tests.
    But I have pretty much settled on Sassafras, with it being less than 50 yards from the back door and in different places all over the farm.
    Yes, Spring has sprung. We had a fire three days or so, ago, and in another two weeks, we'll be running the air conditioner..... Life in the Ozarks. haha

  4. #7024
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    Buck
    I dont reckon time in storage is your problem

    lemme qualify that a bit
    IF the powder was proper dried when you stored it and it keeps its grain structure with no clumping in storage

    the disqualifier ? ....(dont believe this applies to you - hope not!) IF alcohol is involved in the making process - then yes expect deterioration in performance over time - well thats what happened to me early days the one time I tried it, dunno the exact of it but soon after making I could smell the metho in the can -- months down the track and no smell and a distinct reduction in FPS of the same load - assuming the trace alky accellerated the burn rate - never used it again - got soft grain structure from it as well as then change in velocity.

  5. #7025
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    There is other things in metho than two alcohols..........my other comment as to melting the nitrate .......KNO3 melts at around 750degF ......so you wont be mixing powder at that temperature.........Id suggest ,the sugar is melting ,which it does.........but it melts in a complex fashion as is well known by candy makers.

  6. #7026
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    [QUOTE=indian joe;5562694]Buck
    I dont reckon time in storage is your problem.

    Joe: I quit using alcohol some time ago. And your thoughts on it were the reason I did. And, thank you, by the way.
    I don't think it was time in storage, either. However, the powder was in sealed vials, by the charge and not in a can. But, the grains looked excellent. I put a couple of grains (not by weight) on the table and smashed them with a spoon and they were HARD. There was no evidence of absorbed moisture. I looked it over pretty good before shooting it; and even more so, as I started shooting it, when I saw velocities slower than I expected.
    I thought I may have messed up the batch, in some way; yet, the 3fff was still a bunch faster and was from the exact same batch. It was 40 something feet slower than the 75-15-10 batch from a year earlier, but the recipe was also different.
    I have not had good success with large grain powder, in my rifles; and I'm wondering if the reason may be, I'm shooting patched round balls and not a heavy bullet. Maybe the heavier projectile gives time for the powder to build energy and the ball is light enough, it does not. The .490 balls weigh 177 grains and I think some of the pure lead bullets are 500 grains and more. Just a few grains less than three times the weight of the ball.
    I'm thinking the light balls just prefer a fast burning, small grain powder. But, I'm open to other opinions, too.

  7. #7027
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    The Mad Monk files referenced here a while back made mention of longterm deterioration due to bad water used in the initial manufacturing process - and - possible overheating when drying the powder after puck and grind (IIRC, it was 170 degrees F).

  8. #7028
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    Quote Originally Posted by HWooldridge View Post
    The Mad Monk files referenced here a while back made mention of longterm deterioration due to bad water used in the initial manufacturing process - and - possible overheating when drying the powder after puck and grind (IIRC, it was 170 degrees F).
    HW;
    Yes and since I first started making powder, I have only used distilled water. Up until a couple of years ago, I did make it with a 50/50% of pure alcohol and distilled water, but only for awhile. (Joe convinced me of the shortfalls).
    The over heating of the powder when drying pucks, I have been guilty of. But, not on this particular charcoal. I used my dehydrator on it, at 145°. Some powder I have dried at 200°+, until the Sulfur started to smell. That was my notice that the powder was dry, and the scale backed it up.
    The Monk files were excellent to show me the <170° drying of powder and pucks. Among many other great information. Thanks for the reply. Hope you are still making and testing your powder! Did you get my muller made yet? LOL

  9. #7029
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    DB, LOL - I am still working on your muller - and when I do finish it, you will be the first one to find out if it works.

  10. #7030
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    HI DB.

    I'm sorry to hear that you have seen a reduction in velocity. I have not seen a reduction on my end. I typically use 75-15-10 now. Remember that the brown charcoal is a bit more hydroscopic so it needs to be kept in a dry environment. With my tests, both the 3 f and 1.5 f performed very strongly. Ninety five grains of 1.5 F (in one of those powder measures, actually 81gr by weight) sent a 543 grain projectile 1335 FPS in a 45-90 1874 sharps for 2149 FT-lbs. I don't know what the typical velocity is anymore but it seems to have impressed me based on how i marked it. I'm still waiting on my shiloh sharps in 45-110...was told 2 more months back in october!
    Last edited by almar; 04-11-2023 at 07:14 PM.
    “It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.”
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  11. #7031
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    Almar;
    That's what I'm talking about! See, that is even over my ball speed, on a .50. I bet if I had shot my .58 and compared that heavy bullet, from both powders, that it would have done better. I've gave it a lot of thought, and am leaning on that light ball versus a heavy bullet. And, the powder Waltham Abbey perfected for the Enfield probably had a projectile up there over 500 grains of weight. Two of my balls only weigh 354 grains. I could shoot two balls in one shot and probably shoot them faster, than one, by itself. I'm not going to do that, but just sayin'. I don't have any more of the powder, but I bet a heavy bullet would have shown all the much better. I'm thinking the light ball is just moving too fast to give the large grain powder time to build proper pressure. I could be wrong, but the 3fff just did so much better, it stands to reason, in my mind.
    None the less, I had zero problem with your charcoal, and if you want to send more, I'll shoot hell out of it!!!! It made a believer out of me!
    Good luck on your new rifle delivery. I know that would be like a kid waiting for Christmas.

  12. #7032
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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    There is other things in metho than two alcohols..........my other comment as to melting the nitrate .......KNO3 melts at around 750degF ......so you wont be mixing powder at that temperature.........Id suggest ,the sugar is melting ,which it does.........but it melts in a complex fashion as is well known by candy makers.
    yeah they put something in metho to deter people from drinking it - no idea what and it didnt always work

  13. #7033
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    [QUOTE=DoubleBuck;5562890]
    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Buck
    I dont reckon time in storage is your problem.

    Joe: I quit using alcohol some time ago. And your thoughts on it were the reason I did. And, thank you, by the way.
    I don't think it was time in storage, either. However, the powder was in sealed vials, by the charge and not in a can. But, the grains looked excellent. I put a couple of grains (not by weight) on the table and smashed them with a spoon and they were HARD. There was no evidence of absorbed moisture. I looked it over pretty good before shooting it; and even more so, as I started shooting it, when I saw velocities slower than I expected.
    I thought I may have messed up the batch, in some way; yet, the 3fff was still a bunch faster and was from the exact same batch. It was 40 something feet slower than the 75-15-10 batch from a year earlier, but the recipe was also different.


    I have not had good success with large grain powder, in my rifles; and I'm wondering if the reason may be, I'm shooting patched round balls and not a heavy bullet. Maybe the heavier projectile gives time for the powder to build energy and the ball is light enough, it does not. The .490 balls weigh 177 grains and I think some of the pure lead bullets are 500 grains and more. Just a few grains less than three times the weight of the ball.
    I'm thinking the light balls just prefer a fast burning, small grain powder. But, I'm open to other opinions, too.
    I have no proof but I would agree with your surmise until somebody proved otherwise

    The individual vials .......no matter how well sealed - way more exposure to atmosphere than bulk powder in a can ---could be a factor?

    I dry mine on the loungeroom floor (while mrs joe is away at work!) not over 100F - good in storage - some been 3 years no clumps at all + very little grain deterioration

    Water ? we use good rainwater - I've travelled a lot and good rainwater has less mineral in it than any well /underground supply I have seen yet (or townwater taken from rivers and "treated") - never thought it would make a difference the tiny amount we use?

    Long barrel guns, big bore guns, elongated projectiles - all favours coarser powder

  14. #7034
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    I hope it wasn't one of you guys that make powder on here.
    A couple days ago in the news there was a house that blew up during a fire, big explosion that sent lumber flying all over the place with a lot of white smoke.
    They thought it was caused from home made fireworks...............

  15. #7035
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    There are more than a few people out there who make fireworks as a hobby. Could certainly have been one of them.

    I keep my BP outside in an old greenhouse so it's nowhere near the house.

  16. #7036
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    In that part of the country, I would think Meth Lab quicker than fireworks. Only thing worse could be a Meth lab/fireworks joint venture project. That could be interesting. Sounds like something Brandon would come up with. He's probably got a story about when he did it.... With Cornpop.
    Last edited by DoubleBuck; 04-13-2023 at 01:28 AM.

  17. #7037
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleBuck View Post
    In that part of the country, I would think Meth Lab quicker than fireworks. Only thing worse could be a Meth lab/fireworks joint venture project. That could be interesting. Sounds like something Brandon would come up with. He's probably got a story about when he did it.... With Cornpop.
    We had one of those questionable house explosions on the south side of San Antonio a few months ago. The official story was a propane tank but some of our company employees live nearby and they said it was a known meth lab. There were underground living quarters with an older house at ground level. The explosion completely destroyed everything above ground and killed a couple of people. Aerial photos looked like it had been hit with a cruise missile.

  18. #7038
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    Quote Originally Posted by HWooldridge View Post
    We had one of those questionable house explosions on the south side of San Antonio a few months ago. The official story was a propane tank but some of our company employees live nearby and they said it was a known meth lab. There were underground living quarters with an older house at ground level. The explosion completely destroyed everything above ground and killed a couple of people. Aerial photos looked like it had been hit with a cruise missile.
    fireworks components will do that too - dont think its the blackpowder so much as some of the "other" stuff

  19. #7039
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    fireworks components will do that too - dont think its the blackpowder so much as some of the "other" stuff
    Aluminum and magnesium powders can be very energetic!

  20. #7040
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    fireworks components will do that too - dont think its the blackpowder so much as some of the "other" stuff
    Yes, fireworks components including blackpowder will do that, but it takes a lot. A lot more than a hobbyist would be making at one time. Could a couple pounds of flash powder blow up a house?

    Tim
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check