My homemade black powder

[Brimstone]

Thank you DoubleBuck, I'm glad I got Mr Knight's work out to those he intended it to reach.

I too dehydrate my materials, I use my Cerakote oven and put my dehydrator in the bottom. Funny enough it also serves to dry stock blanks too. 150F is good for a lot of things. Good for drying freshly glazed powder.

I'm currently assaying a 40 gram batch of Spruce. I'm keen to compare it to Red and White Cedar and Black Willow.

[DoubleBuck]

Brimstone;
You're very welcome and actually, no, thank you! That was some hours of interesting reading.
Keep your notes on the woods and post the results if don't mind. We need all the good and bad points tabulated. Maybe at one point we can have it in a certain place we can use as a 'master reference'.

Hammgunner;
I usually grind my charcoal as soon as it cools off. After chasing the rabbit a bit, I have concluded the greatest moisture adsorbed takes place when it is cooling down. Especially in a high relative humidity. First, the lower the char temperature, the less it adsorbs and I guess after the temperature stabilizes, it's adsorption rate slows down.
This makes me think maybe we need to take the finished charcoal as soon as possible, and put it in some sort of sealed container (glass canning jar?) and let it cool down, before even grinding it. And then, maybe try to do the grinding when Relative Humidity is as low as possible. Or, just grind it and not worry about it; then heat it before weighing for milling, which seems the easiest. I have not read that the moisture hurts the charcoal itself in any way. As long as we know its true dry weight for the recipe.
Yes, Spring has sprung. I'll be mowing in two weeks or less. We've got peach trees blooming. I think they may get taught a brutal lesson. Our biggest snows of the last 20 years have been in March. haha

A little something further on the process differences between what we do and what Bill Knight wrote on.
He states that at the beginning of a new wheel mill batch, the moisture content was generally around 10%. But on our process, about the highest moisture the meal sees is somewhere around 4% give or take, added moisture; before pressing. Which is about the same moisture content of the commercial powder coming off the wheel mills, before being pressed.
They need the extra moisture and the last thing we need is moisture, until prepping for pressing.

[DoubleBuck]

DB,

I also read all of the MM files and found some of the same nuggets - Bill Knight was certainly an authority on the subject.

I don't have ready access to any of the "magic woods" for charcoal but have been doing pretty well with red cedar fence pickets. Cedar seems to have some creosote and has that greasy feel if the temperature is maintained properly during the charring process.

I started using distilled water but also add a bit of nitrate to the water so it's more like the nitrate "liquor" that Bill Knight mentioned in the old commercial mills. I haven't shot enough of that batch over a chronograph to know whether it makes a difference. Bill wrote that anything over 76 parts starts to be detrimental so it's a fine line of what works the best.

With regard to the wheel method, I've mentioned a couple times in this thread that I believe a sand muller design as intended for foundry work would work to make BP but the effort to produce one may be difficult to justify when ball milling seems to work quite well. Drying the components does make a difference in clumping so maybe ball milling is simply the best method for an individual. I've been threatening to build a muller for about ten years but have never moved forward with actual construction.

HW

HW;
I scratched my head when I read about the left over charged nitrate liquor they used in milling. I don't know if they adjusted for the increased amount, or considered it a small enough amount to not matter. I think it was the Waltham Abbey book that said the amount of retained Nitrate was very small in the liquor as it was near boiling as used and when cooled it shed almost all of the nitrate.
The sand muller is very interesting. I don't have the equipment or ability to build one, but if you build me one, I'll use it!
Reading the Monk files, when he breaks down what the wheel mill actually does, I can see where it would be superior. He said the shearing action of the rollers made minute sharp Nitrate crystals help grind the Charcoal and Sulfur more and more fine. One test chart showed 2 micron to 10 micron charcoal grain sizes. We might be able to get that, I just don't know. That is a mighty small grain of charcoal.

[HWooldridge]

DB,

The other thing about the wheel is that a flat face running in a circle around an axle produces that smearing effect which is so desirable in the finished product. The muller designs out there simply spring load a small wheel rather than requiring a big heavy one. Just another way to skin the cat.

HW

[Brimstone]

Cedar seems to have some creosote and has that greasy feel if the temperature is maintained properly during the charring process.

HW

That was my first experience with creosote. I was using a Pedersoli 1863 Sharps paper cartridge rifle. It would bind up badly with Goex even though it has an O ring behind the breech plate.

I found that the rifle would function indefinitely with the Red Cedar powder, the moist fouling kept the breech block from binding.

Also, bore fouling stayed soft for the duration of session. No need to wipe after so many shots as with Goex.

That greasy feel of the fouling, immediately after firing. Regardless of humidity. Humidity doesn't play a role here or the Goex wouldn't have suffered as it did.

[Vettepilot]

Thank you DoubleBuck, I'm glad I got Mr Knight's work out to those he intended it to reach.

I too dehydrate my materials, I use my Cerakote oven and put my dehydrator in the bottom. Funny enough it also serves to dry stock blanks too. 150F is good for a lot of things. Good for drying freshly glazed powder.

I'm currently assaying a 40 gram batch of Spruce. I'm keen to compare it to Red and White Cedar and Black Willow.

I've read that glazing and/or graphiting can seal in moisture, so I would do the drying before the glazing. Just a thought.

Yep, there's a reason for the age-old, famous saying; "Keep yer powder dry!"

Vettepilot

[Brimstone]

I don't glaze dried powder anymore, it extends the tumbling time, I find it takes a superior polish faster while retaining the 4% pressing moisture.
I've not had any issues drying in the drying cabinet. I wait until after drying to dust it.

I'm tempted to just toss in some hemmed cloth strips for a few minutes when I'm done glazing to dust it. That's one thing I've not done yet. I'm not sure the cloth will grab dust off of damp grains but it's worth a try.

[DoubleBuck]

Bill Knight said the procedure some companies use is to dry and glaze in one operation; while others dry first and then glaze.
I always dry my pucks completely, before breaking them up and have never polished it. Glazing damp makes a plus for breaking pucks up straight out of the press. I'll have to think on that some.
Something interesting that Bill barely mentioned was density. He talked some about raising loading density through glazing but hardly anything that I recall on density from pressing. He mentioned powder losing about 40% of it's volume, and that was about it.
From what I got from the Files makes me interested in glazing my powder, but graphite really doesn't interest me. It speeds sieving and pouring, and acts as a grain separator in long term storage and also 'moderates' burn rate, which can be an accuracy enhancer. But it is nearly 100% fixed carbon and adds to hard fouling, and makes powder much harder to light, initially. I don't have a pouring or sieving speed need and so far, no storage problem. And, burn rate 'moderation' can be done in several different ways.

[Brimstone]

CVA brass powder measure set to 70gr.

1F powder, White Cedar, 1.8g/cc press density.
Unglazed as F noted. Measure set to 70gr.
From measure to Hornady digital scale=60.1gr.
White Cedar 1FG 1.8g/cc pressed density, glazed as FG noted. Not graphite coated, tumbler glazed only.
Measure setting unchanged.
From measure to digital scale= 66.1gr.

[Brimstone]

White Spruce Assay (2x4x8 lumber). This was retort cooked at 590F over a year ago.

I could have screwed this assay up. At any point a mistake or oversight may have been made.

How I tested. Steel tube set in a lump charcoal fire, vented with 1/8" hole with floating giggler (shortened nail), think pressure cooker giggler weight. It is loose, very loose. Gas vents in a lazy way yet the nail head keeps wind from allowing oxygen in.

My 40 grams batch was off. Moisture. Had to dehydrate 24 hours.

New batch dehydrated. Starting weight 10.815 grams powdered Spruce. I would have tested more but hadn't thrown more in the dehydrator. Meh.
Took 20 minutes to quit venting creosote stinking smoke, pulled from the fire and allowed to cool to ambient.

New balance 7.335 grams.

Content placed in a tin and ashed. Ash weight is 0.155 grams (suspect).

If I didn't totally screw up my math or balances..

66.39% carbon
32.177% creosote/volatile content
1.433% ash content

Tomorrow is Red Cedar if all goes well. I know a lot of you use that. Let's see what I find.

Edited math. I subtracted the ash content from the carbon content (post burnout) value rather than the pre-test starting value of 10.815 grams. I suspect 1.433% isn't correct and I may have lost some material in the ashing process. This is most likely the case.

1.4% ash content seems too good to be true even with 32% creosote/volatile offset. Sorry I don't buy it.

I triple checked my weights. No air moving in the shop while scales were in use. Removed and returned as well as calibrating with the supplied weight.
I'm confident in my weights of the pre and post burn. Just not the ash assay.

I'm performing another test to verify this. I'll use a taller walled container to ash test. I'm also suspicious as my last Spruce ash assay came in at 3.4% and that seems more reasonable.

[LAGS]

Thank you for going to test the Red Cedar.
It just happened that I bought Two bags of the Red Cedar bedding today.
It has been a few years since I used the cedar.
And this looks like a better quality of bedding wood than I had used before.
I will wait to see your results before I make this latest batch of charcoal.

[DoubleBuck]

Brimstone;
Excellent! Keep 'em coming!
Just a note to the earlier discussion...

Mad Monk Complete part 5 page 1.
Drying, an overview.
After the powder has been “grained” in the coming mill the moisture content of the powder grains will vary from roughly 1.5% up to 2.5%.
Removal of this moisture is simply a matter of passing heated air over the grains of powder.

So, between the wheel mill, the pressing, the 'curing', and the corning, their powder went from around 10% moisture, to around 2%, when ready for glazing. After drying and ready for packaging, about .5% moisture.

[LAGS]

Thank you for going to test the Red Cedar.
It just happened that I bought Two bags of the Red Cedar bedding today.
It has been a few years since I used the cedar.
And this looks like a better quality of bedding wood than I had used before.
I will wait to see your results before I make this latest batch of charcoal.

[Brimstone]

Ok this took a turn I was not expecting.

I re-assayed Spruce. This fell perfectly in line with previous assay I hadn't listed.

Spruce:
65.033% carbon
32.368% volatiles
2.599% ash. This ash content matches within range of a previous assay. I believe this to be accurate.

Now for something unexpected.

Southern Red Cedar. It grows native to Florida and I harvested this from across the street.
This is not bedding material. It's from an 8" diameter log. It is 100% heartwood, when harvested only had a thin 1/8" thick sapwood layer under the bark.
Funny I intended to make my wife a jewelry cabinet out of it but some sort of resilient bug ate bore holes through it. So, black powder it will be.

I charred it at 590F and has brown char intermixed with black char.

Oh boy...
Red Cedar:
56.086% carbon
43.138% volatile
0.777% ash content

I thought this was a mistake. Another goof.

I ran strictly an ash assay again. 0.759% ash.

I don't know what to say. I don't know if this is a one off tree or if Florida red cedar is usually like this.
I guess I need to keep the next one I drop too

[LAGS]

Thank you.
I will have to give the Red Cedar a try.
I think that the cedar shavings that I had used before might not have been Red Cedar.
Compared to the stuff I bought yesterday it was really light colored wood that almost looked like pine with little strips of red stuff in it and some stuff that looked like bark.
This Red Cedar bedding looks so much better and does have a strong cedar smell to it.

[DoubleBuck]

Brimstone;
Those are some great numbers.
Almar and I both got around a 1% ash assay on some of my Sassafras wood some time back.
I know there are several types of cedar, but I wonder if what you call Southern Red Cedar is the same as the Eastern Red Cedar which I have many of, on my place. I made a batch of powder with it a few years ago, and even though good powder, it did not perform the best, for me. I was really hoping it would, but I may not have used the right part of the tree, and I am convinced that back then, I was probably over cooking all my charcoal. At that time, I stopped the cook when the vent flame nearly went out and cooked it in a hot fire. So, my powder not being up to snuff could have all been my lack of knowledge to make it better.
If and when you make and test this Red Cedar, please post your results and any comparisons you have.
Good luck with it and great posts on your results!

[Brimstone]

DoubleBuck, I will reference University of Florida here and say that they reference one botanist who ran a full test, chemistry and such between "Eastern" and "Southern" and found absolutely No difference.

Might as well say it's geographic naming.

Oh, this stuff is extremely hard in non-shredded form. Takes a hammer to bust up. I have refused to mill it merely because I will have to pre-process it quite heavily prior to use in the ball mill.
I guess I need to. The low ash screams sporting blend. I'm betting this stuff can be made in a super lean 77/12/10 ratio and not suffer from hard deposition or glassing the barrel.

Edit: That is actually 77/13/10 ratio not 77/12/10.

Given the shavings mill so readily, I've only ever used that form. The fouling as stated in a previous post was plenty soft and kept a very stubborn Pedersoli 1863 paper cartridge Sharps going when Goex wouldn't. Honestly I abandoned the Red Cedar too quickly, I didn't really try to perfect it with a suitable blend ratio.

Starting to think I ought to buy another bag and revisit it.

[DoubleBuck]

Brimstone;
I may have to revisit it, as well. At the time when I tested it, I didn't know about the dry versus wet fouling, and would have been comparing that to Schuetzen. I may have thought the greasy fouling was a bad thing. I just don't remember and checking my notes, I didn't say.

[Brimstone]

All woods listed cooked in 1 gallon paint cans at 590F until smoking from exhaust subsidized. Time was not kept. Only temperature.

Spruce (2x4)
65.033% carbon
32.368% volatiles
2.599% ash


Red Cedar (pure heartwood from local tree).
56.085% carbon
43.138% volatiles
0.777% ash

White Cedar (untreated house shingles)
66.299% carbon
32.366% volatiles
1.335% ash

I'm adding Black Willow, Western Red Alder, Southern Red Maple (Goex clone) and Sycamore to the list soon.

[indian joe]

Cedar ???
30 - 40 years ago we used to see plenty of western red cedar downunder as joinery timber and weatherboards but then the japanese woke up to its value - I visited vancouver island in 2005 and again 2012 and both trips they were loading sawlogs for japan also saw a couple of ships moored just outside the 12 mile zone that were mobile sawmills (some kind of customs dodge) - one local told me the japanese were sinking the logs in bays around their shoreline for later use? This stuff is the premier termite resistant wood - better even than our aussie cypress pine (which also is exported to japan while aussies build with pressure treated plantation radiata)

ooops sidetrack there - there is a lot of cedar growing through the nebraska sandhills (a pest there due to it encouraging blowout erosion) is this the same stuff you guys are getting in the pet bedding ? some of the locals call this "salt cedar" I think - has a strong cedar smell and its pretty wood - contrasting colours from the red heart to creamy sapwood.