My homemade black powder

[Vettepilot]

Also remember that the time under pressure, and very importantly the moisture content, all figure into it as well.

In old times it was done with screw presses, with apparently less pressure than we're using I think, but probably longer times and multiple applications.

Vettepilot

[FrankJD]

HF has a 12 ton press for a buck seventy, and Woody's 2.5" puck making tool is over a hundred. This "sport" can get Xpensive, at least from my perspective.

[HWooldridge]

A screw press would work but I have trouble comprehending how big armies were supplied with many thousands of pounds of high quality gunpowder using a “puck” method. The amount of time it takes in a home shop to make one pound of BP is unreasonable on a production scale. Napoleon and Wellington would have been reduced to throwing rocks and launching arrows pretty quickly if they had relied on me for supply.

I’m speculating here with no personal basis in historical knowledge but I’m thinking they used technology similar to flour milling. The ingredients were milled, probably with some amount of water to reduce the dust, and possibly to create the “cake”. The cake was then dried and broken prior to coarse milling, then the powder was sifted through some type of sieve.

I’d love to see some pictures of old powder making equipment. Does anyone have a source?

[FrankJD]

Also remember that the time under pressure, and very importantly the moisture content, all figure into it as well.

In old times it was done with screw presses, with apparently less pressure than we're using I think, but probably longer times and multiple applications.

Vettepilot

I've got access to a 1 ton press and a 1" diameter s/s pucking tool. Would that setup allow for good puck compression, where the sulfur "plasticizes" as the binder?

[FrankJD]

VettePilot;
I didn't say he could get 2,500 pounds on a 2" die. I said he could get over 2,500 pounds PER SQUARE INCH on a 1/2" die. With a 500 pound press. The formula is Pounds per square inch of pressure, (he said he has a 1/4 ton press, so that is 500 pounds) 500 pounds divided by Pi x Radius squared. So .250" times .250" = .0625" That is the radius squared of a 1/2 inch INSIDE DIAMETER MIND YOU pipe.
Times 3.1416=.19635 500 PSI divided by .19635 = 2546.47313 pounds PER SQUARE INCH on a 1/2 inch die. Not a 2 inch nor a 2 and 1/2 inch die. A 1/2 inch die. Sorry I had to explain what I already said. I thought I plainly said he could get OVER 2,500 pounds PER SQUARE INCH of pressure from a 500 pound PER SQUARE INCH press, on a 1/2 inch die. I didn't say anything about a 2 inch die, nor a 2 and 1/2 inch die. I guess if I have to go to this extent to explain myself every time I post something, maybe I need to just shut the hell up.

Would a 1 ton press and a 1-1/8" s/s puck die allow the necessary compression to form a viable BP puck where the sulfur would "plasticize" as the binder?

[indian joe]

HF has a 12 ton press for a buck seventy, and Woody's 2.5" puck making tool is over a hundred. This "sport" can get Xpensive, at least from my perspective.

Frank you dont need to make pucks for the guns you shoot (the muzzleloaders you told us about) screened powder will do just fine

[indian joe]

A screw press would work but I have trouble comprehending how big armies were supplied with many thousands of pounds of high quality gunpowder using a “puck” method. The amount of time it takes in a home shop to make one pound of BP is unreasonable on a production scale. Napoleon and Wellington would have been reduced to throwing rocks and launching arrows pretty quickly if they had relied on me for supply.

I’m speculating here with no personal basis in historical knowledge but I’m thinking they used technology similar to flour milling. The ingredients were milled, probably with some amount of water to reduce the dust, and possibly to create the “cake”. The cake was then dried and broken prior to coarse milling, then the powder was sifted through some type of sieve.

I’d love to see some pictures of old powder making equipment. Does anyone have a source?

huge big wheels that circled around on a hard base and a guy there continually shovelling the loose meal back under

[FrankJD]

Frank you dont need to make pucks for the guns you shoot (the muzzleloaders you told us about) screened powder will do just fine

I'm just thinking ahead for my cartridge requirements.

[DoubleBuck]

Ummm... it's pounds per square inch; "psi"

So to get 3000 psi on a two inch puck, you need 9,420 pounds of total force on the puck.

That's why we say that with the more common, larger 2.5" dies, you need a 12 ton jack. (Because a 2.5" die needs 14,719 pounds to reach 3000 psi, or 17,172 pounds to reach the more often stated spec of 3500 psi.) A 12 ton jack can do that reliably, with a safety margin. (24,000 pounds)

Sorry Buck...

Vettepilot

VettePilot;
I didn't say he could get 2,500 pounds on a 2" die. I said he could get over 2,500 pounds PER SQUARE INCH on a 1/2" die. With a 500 pound press. The formula is Pounds per square inch of pressure, (he said he has a 1/4 ton press, so that is 500 pounds) 500 pounds divided by Pi x Radius squared. So .250" times .250" = .0625" That is the radius squared of a 1/2 inch INSIDE DIAMETER MIND YOU pipe.
Times 3.1416=.19635 500 PSI divided by .19635 = 2546.47313 pounds PER SQUARE INCH on a 1/2 inch die. Not a 2 inch nor a 2 and 1/2 inch die. A 1/2 inch die. Sorry I had to explain what I already said. I thought I plainly said he could get OVER 2,500 pounds PER SQUARE INCH of pressure from a 500 pound PER SQUARE INCH press, on a 1/2 inch die.
You are correct that a 3 ton jack is not enough on a 2" die to get 3000 pounds per square inch on a puck.
My point was, that 3 ton jack will still get 1909.84 PSI on a 2" puck. Which is a lot more than a 500 pound press will do.
But, that 1/2" die (which I agree is ridiculously small) will still get 1.5 grams per CC density VERY SMALL pucks, with a 500 PSI press.
That 3 ton floor jack will put 3395.7 PSI on a 1 and 1/2 inch puck. And, that will get you 1.7 density pucks all day if you do it right.
Do I recommend using a 1/2" die? Only if you are limited to a press with a maximum pressure of 500 PSI and you want to make pucks with it. It can be done. You may only have 3 gram pucks, but a puck is a puck....

[HWooldridge]

huge big wheels that circled around on a hard base and a guy there continually shovelling the loose meal back under

Like a big muller. And a modern small muller would probably work just as well.

[indian joe]

I'm just thinking ahead for my cartridge requirements.

yeah cool! The farm scrap heap has been kind to me, that and habit ingrained from my grandma of accumulating stuff "that might come in handy one day"

I bought a decent sealed motor for my ball mill = cost about a hundred
the rest of my kit I doubt would owe me another fifty in actual cash cost - made my press and dies , cobbled up screens , made frame for the puck grinder - two of us been shooting this stuff since 2015

[DoubleBuck]

A screw press would work but I have trouble comprehending how big armies were supplied with many thousands of pounds of high quality gunpowder using a “puck” method. The amount of time it takes in a home shop to make one pound of BP is unreasonable on a production scale. Napoleon and Wellington would have been reduced to throwing rocks and launching arrows pretty quickly if they had relied on me for supply.

I’m speculating here with no personal basis in historical knowledge but I’m thinking they used technology similar to flour milling. The ingredients were milled, probably with some amount of water to reduce the dust, and possibly to create the “cake”. The cake was then dried and broken prior to coarse milling, then the powder was sifted through some type of sieve.

I’d love to see some pictures of old powder making equipment. Does anyone have a source?

HW;
If you go to Amazon Kindle, there is a book you can purchase. Either a hard copy, or on Kindle, you can buy and keep it for a small fee.
The name of it is "Like Fire And Powder: Black Powder For The Modern Shooter."
That Book is a synopsis of Waltham Abbey Powder Works, in England, from the 1800's. They were considered the best in the world at the time, at the height of black powder making.
It shows with illustrations, how they made powder step by step. From the wood, to the charcoal, to the milling process. They used 3.5-4 ton bronze capped Iron Mill wheels, to roll the powder. Then, they broke it up and sifted it through a series of screens. Then tumbled it to polish it.
The whole process is explained in great detail.
There are other links on this site, but that has been a year and a half back, or more, where there was a lot of interest in the density process and the grinding and polishing processes. I'll try to help you find a few links when I have time to do some serious searching.
The book is well worth the read.

[HWooldridge]

HW;
If you go to Amazon Kindle, there is a book you can purchase. Either a hard copy, or on Kindle, you can buy and keep it for a small fee.
The name of it is "Like Fire And Powder: Black Powder For The Modern Shooter."
That Book is a synopsis of Waltham Abbey Powder Works, in England, from the 1800's. They were considered the best in the world at the time, at the height of black powder making.
It shows with illustrations, how they made powder step by step. From the wood, to the charcoal, to the milling process. They used 3.5-4 ton bronze capped Iron Mill wheels, to roll the powder. Then, they broke it up and sifted it through a series of screens. Then tumbled it to polish it.
The whole process is explained in great detail.
There are other links on this site, but that has been a year and a half back, or more, where there was a lot of interest in the density process and the grinding and polishing processes. I'll try to help you find a few links when I have time to do some serious searching.
The book is well worth the read.

Thanks DB, I’ll go have a look for it.

Much obliged…HW

[DoubleBuck]

Would a 1 ton press and a 1-1/8" s/s puck die allow the necessary compression to form a viable BP puck where the sulfur would "plasticize" as the binder?

Frank;
A 1-1/8 inch die and 1 ton press would theoretically put 2012 PSI on your pucks. I don't know what that density would make, but I would estimate about 1.2 to 1.3 grams per CC. Still pretty light, but better than nothing. A one inch die with your 1 ton press would get you 2,546 PSI, which again, would be up around 1.5 Grams per CC. A 3/4 inch die would get you 4527 PSI with 1 ton press, which is more than you need, if you could live with a 3/4 inch puck.

[DoubleBuck]

HWooldridge;
I forgot to say the author of that book is named Brett Gibbons.

[FrankJD]

Frank;
A 1-1/8 inch die and 1 ton press would theoretically put 2012 PSI on your pucks. I don't know what that density would make, but I would estimate about 1.2 to 1.3 grams per CC. Still pretty light, but better than nothing. A one inch die with your 1 ton press would get you 2,546 PSI, which again, would be up around 1.5 Grams per CC. A 3/4 inch die would get you 4527 PSI with 1 ton press, which is more than you need, if you could live with a 3/4 inch puck.

Interesting, thanx for the input. A ratchet 3 ton press should get me more in the ballpark with that 1-1/8" puck die, I think.

[DoubleBuck]

Frank;
6,036 PSI theoretically, for 3 tons on a 1-1/8" die. That should make you good pucks.

[FrankJD]

Frank;
6,036 PSI theoretically, for 3 tons on a 1-1/8" die. That should make you good pucks.

Found it cheaper to get a Harbor Freight 12 ton shop press for $172 out the door ... guess I'm good to go for 2-1/2" pucks if need be

[Brimstone]

A screw press would work but I have trouble comprehending how big armies were supplied with many thousands of pounds of high quality gunpowder using a “puck” method. The amount of time it takes in a home shop to make one pound of BP is unreasonable on a production scale. Napoleon and Wellington would have been reduced to throwing rocks and launching arrows pretty quickly if they had relied on me for supply.

I’m speculating here with no personal basis in historical knowledge but I’m thinking they used technology similar to flour milling. The ingredients were milled, probably with some amount of water to reduce the dust, and possibly to create the “cake”. The cake was then dried and broken prior to coarse milling, then the powder was sifted through some type of sieve.

I’d love to see some pictures of old powder making equipment. Does anyone have a source?

They stockpiled. Production of black powder was slow.
Generally around 25lb per batch on the mills as the more you add to the pan the less effective the grinding and incorporation becomes. Means dirty less energetic powder.

The pressing was via hydraulic press. Yes modern hydraulic press as we use today.

The box the powder was pressed in was of Oak with brass reinforcement and the cake divided with copper plates to make thin easily broken sheets of hard pressed powder.

Corning was done on a very rightfully terrifying machine with steel rollers set closely together and gear driven.
This thing has a tendency to come apart in spectacular fashion as so many gears, bearings and such are wonderful devices for initiating black powder dust and this thing creates a **** ton of dust.

Everyone gets their rocks off talking about wheel mill explosions but writings show the corning machines went up more often. Thing is, they don't need babysitting like the wheel mill so fewer fatalities resulted. The corning machines were fed remotely via conveyor this saving lives.

Typical reporters, they could care less about accidents unless someone died.

One thing to note: Powder went through Three eras.
Serpentine powder as a dry mix. Quite crude. This is what they used in the old monster hoop and stave siege guns of olde.

Second was stamp milled, wet caked powder. The loaves were dried and broken up. This was low density powder of significantly greater performance. Still fairly weak grains that broke down to dust fairly quickly in transit.

Finally we have modern Congreve powder, invented around 1780 ish by William Congreve 2nd Baron of something England.
This is the modern wheel milled, high density glazed powder we're acclimated to today.

[HWooldridge]

HWooldridge;
I forgot to say the author of that book is named Brett Gibbons.

DB,

My wife downloaded that little gem onto my Ipad and I finished the chapter on final incorporation, just prior to pressing and corning. Great read, I think everyone on this thread should get a copy if you don’t already have it. He confirmed they used edge roller grinding mills that look like oversized sand mullers, which was my earlier thought. He also talks about binary mixtures, i.e., less dangerous blends of two components, something I thought about but hadn’t tried yet. Many thanks for the lead - definitely worth the four bucks.