My homemade black powder

[Brimstone]

HWooldridge;
You may be familiar with some people in your area who are into rock polishing? I have a brother in law who is into it big time. They have clubs with people who gather from all over and associate. They have some top notch rock tumblers, which are what the Harbor Freight 'ball mills' actually are. I ask my BIL about it and he said he could get me a good tumbler any time and some times pretty reasonably.
I myself bought a HF double drum tumbler/polisher about five years ago for $50 and have had really good luck with it. I think I have made close to 20 pounds of powder with it. I don't use both drums at one time, but with 50 lead balls of 60 caliber, it will do a half pound in each drum, in 8 hours.
If you do decide to get a tumbler of some sort, or make one, I have one suggestion. If you use lead balls, you will get a certain amount of wear off them, into your powder. I am in the process of replacing them with high tin content lead balls, quenched in water. Hopefully that will cut down on the wear. HighUintas posted about a year ago, that he had researched and was using a certain type of Stainless balls. 304 if my memory serves and it probably doesn't. ha. Others have tried ceramic but they are light and I'm not sure of the success of using them. I think lead is the best, because it is so heavy, but the wear concerns me. More so for the contamination of the powder.
Should you try a HF tumbler, there are a couple of mods you can make on them, to make them more efficient. And you can fill copper tubes with lead and use them as a mill media. Not sure if they wear well, or not, but someone here will know. Copper jacketed bullets have also been suggested.
VettePilot's suggestion on the tread mill is a good one, as well, if you can make your own mill jar. I have a friend right now who has offered me a free tread mill, to get it out of his living room. It would carry your three or five pound jar for years.

Unhardened 304 stainless steel shot. I got stainless too because I'd read others use it and Skylighter the pyro supply house has a page talking about media choices and unhardened 304 stainless is among the viable options but outrageous in price. Indeed it is expensive.

[HWooldridge]

Unhardened 304 stainless steel shot. I got stainless too because I'd read others use it and Skylighter the pyro supply house has a page talking about media choices and unhardened 304 stainless is among the viable options but outrageous in price. Indeed it is expensive.

I can probably get 303 SS bar drops - but 304 is a bit more difficult to find around here.

[Brimstone]

Stainless is steep in price for starting up. Probably better to start with lead and optimize your mill before splurging on pricey media.
A custom drive unit for the drum(s) comes to mind. I did that before going to alternative media. I found that my base drive for the Rebel 17 couldn't cope with a drum half full of lead shot (1,400 ish). I had to build a proper drive unit. The base unit ran ok with 1/4 drum of shot but milling time was up to 12 hours.

That expense was worth every penny. It vastly improved my efficiency, 1 hour to mill 500 grams of comp to the edge of clumping.

[HWooldridge]

So I weighed a sample of my pucked, crushed and screen graded powder against a Goex control sample. 40 grs. on my volume charger weighed 39.2 on the scale for the Goex, while my home made product weighed 20.4 grs. Since the nitrate is the heaviest component, I’m assuming a good portion was lost during the initial process - or my pressing method might be suspect. Any other thoughts on this discrepancy?

[LAGS]

That means your powder is about 50%of factory density.
I usually do the 100 grain by volume to compare it to the weight of my powder.
That right off the bat gives you the exact percentage ratio.
Your density is not from the weight of the chemicals or if they got washed away.
Most of my Screener powder is about 65 to 70 %
My pucked powder runs from 70 to 85%
The density of my corned powder varies from how I press it and the amount of water.
The Screened powder density is also related to your Binder and amount of moisture.
I did try binder in corned powder.
It raised the density.
But it made the powder in my testing , burn slower.

[Vettepilot]

Increase the time under pressure, and press, hold, apply more pressure again.

Almar on here has gotten to 1.8 ~ density I believe. (Factory is 1.7g/cc.) But denser can be slower, and as mentioned, getting good density requires all other preps/steps be perfect.

Vettepilot

[LAGS]

The denser powder that burned slower was because of the binder.
Not the density.

[DoubleBuck]

So I weighed a sample of my pucked, crushed and screen graded powder against a Goex control sample. 40 grs. on my volume charger weighed 39.2 on the scale for the Goex, while my home made product weighed 20.4 grs. Since the nitrate is the heaviest component, I’m assuming a good portion was lost during the initial process - or my pressing method might be suspect. Any other thoughts on this discrepancy?

HW;
First, my screened powder has 1/3 more volume than the same weight of pressed. That is not unusual. If you pucked it with 30 tons, that is unusual.
If you think you lost a substantial amount of Nitrate in the process, you might try a different recipe, or that dry ice you spoke of. If it did lose a lot of nitrate, that would definitely make each grain light.
You might try burning a small mound on a typing or notebook paper. If it flashes and just tinges the paper, it is fast and close to correct. If it burns holes in the paper, it is slow and you either have an incorporation problem, weak charcoal, or not enough nitrate.
If you feel you are stuck with the wet method, which makes perfectly good powder, then you might think about dropping the CIA method and going with the way I mentioned yesterday. That will at least eliminate the loss of nitrate.
If you want high density, in my opinion, you need a mill. Even with the wet methods, the finer you get the ingredients, the better the final results will be. My biggest jump in density came from Brown charcoal. Cooked at under 600°F, it will have much higher initial density than black charcoal, which is very likely over cooked. At least pull your charcoal when it is still smoking heavily. If center pieces will break easily, and it has a brown sheen to it, that is what you're looking for.
My suggestion would be to get a mill and make SURE you get your charcoal air floated very well. I grind my charcoal to air float, and then mill it by itself for at least 2 hours before adding the other ingredients.
Pulverize your KNO3 and Sulfur to face powder consistency. Then, until you get a good sample, mill it for at least 8 hours. Afterwards, if you want to cut back the milling time, experiment with it. Most guys say even with a good mill, it should mill for at least 4 hours.
If you want to go with pressed powder there is one more thing which is very easily overlooked, and is critical to density. Moisture content.
Press your pucks and then dry them dry dry dry. If you can, weigh them until you are positive you have them completely dry. A hot plate or slow cooker on low, or a dehydrator at 140°F., or another known method of raising their temp high enough to drive off the moisture is a good thing. Moist powder grains are soft, and give false weights. If they are moist when broken up, they lose the density you pressed into them. Think of each grain being like a sponge. Dry, it is big and very light, but damp it is big and very heavy. So, if you have moist grains, you will have far less grains telling you they weigh say that 40 grains on your volume charger. The same grains dry may add a third to your volume, to weigh the same 40 grains.
I hope I haven't confused you and helped you in some respect. Don't get discouraged and good luck!

[indian joe]

Increase the time under pressure, and press, hold, apply more pressure again.

Almar on here has gotten to 1.8 ~ density I believe. (Factory is 1.7g/cc.) But denser can be slower, and as mentioned, getting good density requires all other preps/steps be perfect.

Vettepilot

But Almar is doin calculated density on the solid pucks - whats his measure of density for finished powder ? after breaking up, screening ?

[indian joe]

HW;
First, my screened powder has 1/3 more volume than the same weight of pressed.

Did you do a typo here ??? my screened is always lighter (less dense) than pressed pucked

I get about 65% density for screened and 87 to 90 % for pressed pucked. thats compared to commercial Goex from last century


That is not unusual. If you pucked it with 30 tons, that is unusual.
If you think you lost a substantial amount of Nitrate in the process, you might try a different recipe, or that dry ice you spoke of. If it did lose a lot of nitrate, that would definitely make each grain light.
You might try burning a small mound on a typing or notebook paper. If it flashes and just tinges the paper, it is fast and close to correct. If it burns holes in the paper, it is slow and you either have an incorporation problem, weak charcoal, or not enough nitrate.
If you feel you are stuck with the wet method, which makes perfectly good powder, then you might think about dropping the CIA method and going with the way I mentioned yesterday. That will at least eliminate the loss of nitrate.
If you want high density, in my opinion, you need a mill. Even with the wet methods, the finer you get the ingredients, the better the final results will be. My biggest jump in density came from Brown charcoal. Cooked at under 600°F, it will have much higher initial density than black charcoal, which is very likely over cooked. At least pull your charcoal when it is still smoking heavily. If center pieces will break easily, and it has a brown sheen to it, that is what you're looking for.
My suggestion would be to get a mill and make SURE you get your charcoal air floated very well. I grind my charcoal to air float, and then mill it by itself for at least 2 hours before adding the other ingredients.
yeah - mine goes through a meat grinder then milled for two hours before i store it for use later on


Pulverize your KNO3 and Sulfur to face powder consistency. Then, until you get a good sample, mill it for at least 8 hours. Afterwards, if you want to cut back the milling time, experiment with it. Most guys say even with a good mill, it should mill for at least 4 hours.
If you want to go with pressed powder there is one more thing which is very easily overlooked, and is critical to density. Moisture content.
Press your pucks and then dry them dry dry dry. If you can, weigh them until you are positive you have them completely dry. A hot plate or slow cooker on low, or a dehydrator at 140°F., or another known method of raising their temp high enough to drive off the moisture is a good thing. Moist powder grains are soft, and give false weights. If they are moist when broken up, they lose the density you pressed into them. Think of each grain being like a sponge. Dry, it is big and very light, but damp it is big and very heavy. So, if you have moist grains, you will have far less grains telling you they weigh say that 40 grains on your volume charger. The same grains dry may add a third to your volume, to weigh the same 40 grains.
I hope I haven't confused you and helped you in some respect. Don't get discouraged and good luck!

......

[indian joe]

That means your powder is about 50%of factory density.
I usually do the 100 grain by volume to compare it to the weight of my powder.
That right off the bat gives you the exact percentage ratio.
Your density is not from the weight of the chemicals or if they got washed away.
Most of my Screener powder is about 65 to 70 %
My pucked powder runs from 70 to 85%
The density of my corned powder varies from how I press it and the amount of water.
The Screened powder density is also related to your Binder and amount of moisture.
I did try binder in corned powder.
It raised the density.
But it made the powder in my testing , burn slower.

mine has binder in the corned
ist decent batch I made I used 5% Dextrin in screened powder
2nd batch (a year or so later) started out the same idea but with a new lot of dextrin - which I aparently cooked a lot better than the first batch - had a decent amount of meal ground before I went to process any and oooooopsie my screened mix was like black GLUE - that stuff was obnoxiously sticky. only way out of that mess was grind a heap more meal with no dex, mix em to dilute the dextrin down to 2% - by the time thats done we had about 35lb of stuff with 2% dextrin - so I pressed about half of it - screened the rest . Its about all gone now and shot fine - didnt have any no dex to compare to but happy with the velocity - bit better than Goex

[HWooldridge]

All good info - I did some offsite net reading last night and noticed a few slight recipe tweaks from other sources but I plan to stick with my original ratios until I figure out the variables. Since I’m only shooting centerfire cartridges, the blends with little to no sulfur look interesting if they will yield good velocities.

The forecast is for rain the entire weekend so I may load a few 44-40 shells and see how much of this batch will compress in the case. I am fortunate that I can basically shoot out of my back door so it’s easy to test a few loads and adjust.

We have a Harbor Freight in town so I’ll go see if they have a tumbler. I also remembered this morning that I’ve got several hundred pounds of bronze scrap and I’ll pick through that to see what might make good grinding media.

Thanks to everyone for the brainstorming. It is very helpful to bounce ideas off experienced makers.

[HWooldridge]

I did a burn test on a piece of notebook paper. The sample flashed immediately but burned quite a few holes. This batch will likely shoot but I expect performance won’t be optimal.

My gut instinct here is that I lost some nitrate in the initial process, and my charcoal may still be too large. I ground it in a pepper grinder and it is very fine, but I believe ball milling will reduce it even further.

[LAGS]

HW.
A coffee grinder will grind your chemicals very well.
But they still feel course like a very find sand.
The ball mill will make them even finer.
In fact like fine dust.
The finer , The Better.
It gives everything more surface to mix with each other.
If you find a ball mill , just use some lead balls to start off as your media.
Then you are making batches , then you have time to look at investing time or money in another type of media like lead filled copper tubes or lead filled handgun cases.

[HWooldridge]

I bought an HF tumbler; price is now $60…woohoo!

Will probably mill a batch today - I have plenty of ingredients and some lead balls for media.

[LAGS]

Question for you.
Are you going to take that first batch and run it thru the ball mill and then re press it to see if it increases your density or performance ?

[HWooldridge]

Question for you.
Are you going to take that first batch and run it thru the ball mill and then re press it to see if it increases your density or performance ?

I could certainly do that but still suspect I’ve lost some nitrate. Of course, it doesn’t hurt to try it and see what happens. Will be a good experiment to see if the burn time improves.

[LAGS]

This is just a longshot and not really worth it.
Re Grind that batch.
Then re press it and see if it improves.
If it doesn't, then regrind it again and add a little more nitrate to your third try.
That is more something you would do in a last call for powder situation.
But you can play that game just to experiment with powder you are not happy with.

[DoubleBuck]

indian joe;
"Did you do a typo here ??? my screened is always lighter (less dense) than pressed pucked"
No, LOL and I don't know how I always confuse you, when I say that. Like you, my screened is always lighter (less dense) than pressed pucked, as well.
I weighed two 60 grain charges and put them in a 100 grain container. My pressed powder went to the 60 grain mark, and the screened powder went just short of the 90 grain mark. They both weighed the same, but the screened had more volume. That is why I said, "First, my screened powder has a third more volume than the same weight of pressed."
Almar and I both calculate our densities on dried pucks. So when I say 1.7 grams per CC density, that is the DRY puck. After processing, the GRAIN density remains the same, but the VOLUME changes, because it is no longer a solid. I think that may be how I'm confusing you. The finished powder density is NOT 1.7 grams per CC, any longer, but the grains themselves are. Another way to say it would be, the grains are as hard as the puck was, but breaking the puck up changed it's volume.
Joe, I promise I'm not here to intentionally confuse you. haha

[HWooldridge]

This is just a longshot and not really worth it.
Re Grind that batch.
Then re press it and see if it improves.
If it doesn't, then regrind it again and add a little more nitrate to your third try.
That is more something you would do in a last call for powder situation.
But you can play that game just to experiment with powder you are not happy with.

I set up the tumbler and am grinding that last batch. Figured I’d give it four hours then check it. I threw in a box of old .41 caliber Speer half jackets from the loading shelf for media.