They have been Granulating powder for around 400 years.
I would think that if shooting just ungranulated powder and fines worked better , they would have stopped wasting time Granulating it.
This is something from the past that has been improver with things like switching to Smokeless powder along with the guns.
But why try to totally Re invent the wheel or build a better Mouse Trap.
I think they tried that with inventing BP subs.
That Works , but not that great. IMO
I understand the 1200 years part. My question is why do grained powders work better than fines, if fines burn so fast? I'm not trying to build a better anything. The original post question was asked why didn't we use smaller grain powders if 3F was faster than 2f, which was faster than 1f. If it is not faster, then I understand. If fines are faster, I do not understand.
I made two videos of powder I made a couple of weeks ago. The fines burned four feet of my burn rate test stand in about one second. 30 frames to be exact. The finished powder (3f) burned the same four feet in 18 frames. So why? Either fines are not faster than grained powder, or they are faster. And if they are faster, why do we use grained powder? My explanation made more confusion than had I not made it. So, I'm asking the same question, to those who say fines are faster. Are they? And, if they are, why do we not use them?
Last edited by DoubleBuck; 10-17-2022 at 02:33 PM. Reason: To tear down the wall of confusion. That's what the world needs, today.
As i understand it, finer grains combust themselves faster but a column of fines has a poorer ignition than a column of larger grains.
This is an exerpt from the waltham abbey book chapter 10.
As an example, the relatively short case of a 45 colt compared to the 45-120 can use fffg quite well and will show much better velocity than 1fg in that case because the grains will burn up quickly and the ignition is over a short column of powder. However, in the 45-120 the column is much longer and the ignition is over a longer distance, the larger grains allow for the flames to travel easier and improve ignition so in this cartridge larger granules would be more suitable. So if you thrown in there barrel length, projectile weight, compression and granule density AND add not only what gives you the highest average velocity but also what gives the most consistent velocity, then it becomes a soup of variables that can only be optimized by testing. So that means more fun generally, but not always as i am experiencing now with the most frustrating cartridge i ever loaded, the 22 hornet with a 1:16 twist pencil thin barrel. As someone once described it, "when she is happy, she is wonderful, when she is not, she is horrid".
Last edited by almar; 10-17-2022 at 03:29 PM.
“It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.”
― Winston S. Churchill
Thanks Almar. I've proved to myself over the last few years, if to no one else; that green meal is the slowest, fines the next slowest, and 3f faster than 2f, in a linear burn rate. I have more than 20 videos of each and it has been the same on every powder I've tested. Fines are not faster than 3f. Not even close. In open air, in a linear burn rate tester, nor in my rifle.
They may go poof and they may be easier to light, but they do not go poof faster than 3f.
Sir you have not confused me And this is the answer I was looking for Please dont withdraw from this discussion as some of us need the help .I fired my first homemade powder yesterday And was very happy with it I am learning as I go It burned clean and fast I may try one of my flintlocks with it soon And was curious about what size to try first in the pan and sounds like I should try 3 or 4 f THX for your helpOriginally Posted by DoubleBuck
One thing that I have not noticed being mentioned concerning the fines vs coarse BP discussion, unless I missed it, is PRESSURE. Now I am fairly well schooled on much of the reactions of smokeless powders and their pressure characteristics, at least to my satisfaction. But as for BP pressure characteristics, doesn't the finer grade black powders produce a faster or quicker pressure if observed on a pressure curve chart? That would be similar to how smokeless acts when comparing faster burning vs slower burning powders. Thus the necessity to use slower burning powders when pushing a much heavier projectile if one wants to achieve any decent velocity within the maximum pressure range of the individual firearm.
73 de n0ubx, Rick
NRA Benefactor Life Member/VFW Life Member
On another note, I think there was a discussion on this thread many months ago about Wild Bill Hickok's reported shot on the Springfield, Mo. square when he killed Dave Tutt. I was there last Saturday and took this picture of a plaque located on the edge of the street on the spot where Hickok stood. This plague was placed on the reported spot 47 years ago. There is also an identical one on the spot where Dave Tutt stood, before he fell from a shot through the heart. I have read from several sources that Hickok was using an 1851 Colt Navy .36 cal., but whatever he used, I can tell you that it looked like a long shot as I stood looking from one plague to the other across the square.
73 de n0ubx, Rick
NRA Benefactor Life Member/VFW Life Member
I read that Hickok used a 44 Colt Dragoon for the shot fired at Tutt. Regardless, quite an impressive display of marksmanship, especially under fire.On another note, I think there was a discussion on this thread many months ago about Wild Bill Hickok's reported shot on the Springfield, Mo. square when he killed Dave Tutt. I was there last Saturday and took this picture of a plaque located on the edge of the street on the spot where Hickok stood. This plague was placed on the reported spot 47 years ago. There is also an identical one on the spot where Dave Tutt stood, before he fell from a shot through the heart. I have read from several sources that Hickok was using an 1851 Colt Navy .36 cal., but whatever he used, I can tell you that it looked like a long shot as I stood looking from one plague to the other across the square
Joe;
thanks for the explanation, and it was less confusing than mine. Probably more right, too. Yours was not the only confusion of what I said, in the deleted post. After re reading it several times, I could see the confusion I caused, and that is not what I'm here for. The question was asked and I didn't give the proper answer. You did. And, I trust your opinion.
That aside, I welcome your upcoming test. I hope you share the results and that they explain a question asked and discussed on this forum more than once.
I've made and shot black powder mainly for three rifles. 1861 Springfield repop by Chiapa .58, and a Colt 1861 Springfield reissue and a recently acquired .50 Thompson Center Renegade. No pistols or other weapons.
I had made powder before, but I read probably 5 years of posts here, before coming current, about five years ago. I've been an actual member, for 2 years. In that time I've probably made around 20 pounds of powder. I've used just over 15 pounds of Nitrate, since I started. So, I'm no where near an experienced black powder shooter, or maker, that you and several other guys on here are.
Nearly every batch of powder I've made has been from different wood. I've burn rate tested and videoed every batch I have made; of green meal; of fines, and of actual finished powder, in either 2f or 3f grains. I do that so I can watch the video frame by frame and see what it is actually doing, how much smoke and what color and how fast the powder burns. Then between the linear burn tester and a one gram pile, I figure out how dirty it is.
I know at one point you mentioned that burn rate testing was not much more than a fireworks show and didn't give much information, on what it does in the barrel of a rifle. The rifle part I'm in 100% agreement. The information gained I totally disagree with you on. When comparing different charcoal on nearly every batch, and adding all the other variables you are perfectly familiar with together, seeing the burn rate corelated to what DOES happen in the rifle is all I have cared about. And, I've drawn a few pretty solid conclusions from that.
Number one: I have never had a green meal test that is faster than the powder made from it, nor the fines from that powder. Even though a few have been surprisingly close.
Number two: I have never had the fines from powder burn at a higher linear rate than the finished powder (of which, I only make either 2f or 3f). Again, a few have been surprisingly close. Especially Balsa. Without a camera I don't believe you could accurately time it, even with a stop watch.
Number three: 2f powder is nearly always 5-10 frames (30 frames per second shutter speed) slower than 3f, for the duration of the average 'quick' burn of less than two seconds per four feet. I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say two seconds and five frames; so, 5 frames divided by 60 total frames is 8% faster.
To quote my last test, which was the Mimosa you and I discussed and the difference in the fines and the finished 3f powder was one second on the fines (30 frames) and 18 frames on the 3f divided by 30 frames (one second); which is a difference of 40% Even though the fines burned a quarter inch line (3 grams) four feet in length in exactly one second, the 3f did it in barely over one half second. That is a substantial difference.
Number four: Of every powder I have tested in my rifle's, they all three love 3f powder, versus 2f, or <12 >18 grain sized (1f?) That is on a 60 grain weighed charge, which is all I use on the heads up tests to keep things equal. And the single test of the fines from that same Mimosa powder from last week in the .50 was the slowest ball I shot that day. 1422 feet per second. The fastest 2f at 1491 fps and the fastest 3f was 1539 fps. That was fines from my 3f powder (<24 >50). Those were all shot in the Thompson Renegade, with a patched .490" round ball and, again, a weighed 60 grain charge of each.
So, for me; I'm saying in my tests, which haven't been scientific nor definitive, I have video to back up my statement many times, that my fines have tested faster than any green meal I have made and my fines are both slower and also have slower ball speeds than their mother powders of 2f and especially 3f. Those chronograph tests have only went back 1 1/2 years, since I owned it. The linear burn rates go back to the first batch I made, with information from this forum.
And, I am not audacious enough to believe that your tests will absolutely jive with mine.
I look forward to your test and it's results.
Last edited by DoubleBuck; 10-18-2022 at 03:51 AM. Reason: Tearing down he wall of confusion again.
HamGunner;
Seventy five yards with a six inch barreled pistol, and the shot entered Dave at the right fifth rib and EXITED at the left fifth rib? What in the world kind of powder was he using? LOL After going through a 'duster' a shirt, and maybe an undershirt? Good Grief!!!!! I would be surprised if a modern hand gun would do more than that.
Hickok might have been using locally manufactured Sassafras gunpowder perhaps.
In any event, yes I read somewhere along the line that same Coroner's report. I think it was evidence in Hickok's trial, actually. Makes me wonder if the reported .36 Cal. Colt Navy revolvers that he often carried could do that much penetration even if loaded with the heavy conical bullets, so I too, like HWooldridge, would rather think that Hickok was shooting a .44 on that day. I likely would be packing heavy too if I was expecting a gunfight, which he certainly was.
I think I might just stick to Sassafras as I have not convinced myself that Black Willow is any better. Even after I finally got to make a batch using the proper Willow, I was not convinced that it was any better than my Sassafras powder. Maybe one more test with the correct Black Willow charcoal and then I will decide. But I am very happy with the Sassafras.
Plus Sassafras grows in just about any fence row in this part of the State of Missouri and I love pulling it up just to smell the aroma of the roots.
Last edited by HamGunner; 10-18-2022 at 10:00 PM.
73 de n0ubx, Rick
NRA Benefactor Life Member/VFW Life Member
Indian Joe;
It's all good. I respect your opinion on about everything that has been discussed. I have no doubt that you do know what you're talking about, and sometimes I wonder if I do. haha I certainly don't want to steer anyone the wrong direction. But if I've seen it for myself, I am also pretty hard headed. Thanks for the comeback!
Last edited by DoubleBuck; 10-18-2022 at 10:33 PM.
HamGunner;Hickok might have been using locally manufactured Sassafras gunpowder perhaps.
In any event, yes I read somewhere along the line that same Coroner's report. I think it was evidence in Hickok's trial, actually. Makes me wonder if the reported .36 Cal. Colt Navy revolvers that he often carried could do that much penetration even if loaded with the heavy conical bullets, so I too, like HWooldridge, would rather think that Hickok was shooting a .44 on that day. I likely would be packing heavy too if I was expecting a gunfight, which he certainly was.
I think I might just stick to Sassafras as I have not convinced myself that Black Willow is any better. Even after I finally got to make a batch using the proper Willow, I was not convinced that it was any better than my Sassafras powder. Maybe one more test with the correct Black Willow charcoal and then I will decide. But I am very happy with the Sassafras.
Plus Sassafras grows in just about any fence row in this part of the State of Missouri and I love pulling it up just to smell the aroma of the roots.
I'm with you on the Sassafras. I have probably twenty trees 50 yards behind my house. I usually dig some roots for people in February. They do smell so good and the tea tastes like crap. ha. But my grandfather told me the old wife's tale was that if you drank fresh Sassafras tea in February, you wouldn't have to see a doctor all year. Digging roots can be a challenge, in February with six inches of frost, like this year was. I didn't dig any but have some stashed.
Sassafras is still my best powder of all the woods. I have a large amount I cut when the buds were swelled and leaves fixing to pop, this Spring. My next batch is coming up any day now as I lit the first fire in the stove, yesterday. I like making charcoal in it.
I share your indecision on the Black Willow. It made good powder, nearly identical to Sassafras, but no better. And, I think the Sassafras was actually more clean.
My wife came in a few days ago (she's a plant and tree freak) and told me where there is some Tree of Heaven she found. She's been looking for it since I told her I would really like to have some to test. So, even though I swore I was done with testing different woods, If these trees are really TOH, they are just three miles from me and there is a thriving whole field of them. So, I may test just ONE more wood. That field will be gone to the progress of Man, in the very near future. Bentonville has grown to just about having it completely surrounded with businesses and housing. And it is for sale and zoned Commercial.
This is a GREAT thread and I've been following it for a yr or so. A few months ago I made some black powder using Oak charcoal for my Green Egg. The stuff turned out "pretty" good, but not what I'd like. I ordered a lb of "Charcoal Eastern Red Cedar Ground" from "fireworkscookbook.com" place. From reading I understand this is ground pretty fine, but I might need to grind some more.
I wish to do better this time and use the 16 ton Hydraulic press I've got. I would like a bit of info on the pucks used to hold the powder while pressing. Does this Red Cedar Charcoal sound ok? OR - do I really "need" Black Willow or Sassafras? If so, I'm sure open to purchasing some from anybody who might have a bit available. Heck, even a cup would be more than enough for making a small batch. I don't expect to be making all that much, I just wish to do it
I've got some Aluminum rod I can use to turn out a "socket" part, and also the "plug" part to press. How is the socket part made? Is there a way for the liquid to be pressed out? Holes in bottom? I've read in the past how the socket 'n plug where made, but that's 300 pages to search thru. If somebody could help me out I'd sure appreciate it.
Ken H>
Red Cedar charcoal works pretty good.
That Oak charcoal you used will burn slower and dirtier.
Now the charcoal has to be ground to a Air Fly consistantly.
Or it will not mix properly with the other two chemicals.
Red Cedar is fine. Makes a good propellant. Easily capable of anything you could ask of it.
You're in Alabama. You can also find Southern Red Maple. It makes a near perfect Goex clone if you're inclined to clone that.
You'll have Black and Carolina Willow in your area too. Great options as well.
Last edited by Brimstone; 10-19-2022 at 07:07 PM.
I'm blessed with lots of good wood, but I hear that its not about the wood you have it's how you use it. You have to be selective with the wood you use, the old hard core of the truck is not the best. The willow for example, will have softer outer layers that are better. 4 inch diameter and under are best. A light wood low in ash content is better than a hardwood. But overall, i would choose a wood i can harvest easily where i live.
Last edited by almar; 10-19-2022 at 07:20 PM.
“It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.”
― Winston S. Churchill
KenH;
I agree with LAGS on the Oak.
You don't need Black Willow, or Sassafras, unless it is readily available to you.
If you look around creeks and ponds etc., your area should have lots of Black Willow, if you are interested.
You don't want water to actually squeeze out of your meal. The book says 4% max moisture. In your area, you have high Relative Humidity all year. So go very easy on the moisture and make sure it is very evenly distributed through your meal. If you don't have enough moisture, the puck will fall apart when you punch it out of the die. If it has too much, water droplets will squeeze out underneath the die. That water is rich in your KNO3 and will leach out too much, if you get carried away. Plus, it makes weak pucks and if you dry it above 200°F, it will 'blister' the pucks. I like mine to just leave a moist haze on the backing plate of the press, when the die is removed. It is actually perfect when I can't even tell it was there.
If I dry my meal very dry, I use from 1/2 CC (gram or ML) of water per ounce of powder, to 3/4 gram per ounce; (1.8%-2.7%) when the Relative Humidity is above 45%, which it nearly always is, here. I start with 1/2 and go from there, if I'm not satisfied how it looks. And again, the relative humidity can make a big difference. I made pucks without added water, one time, when the RH here was up over 70%. They sat in the open for a day, absorbing moisture and worked great.
Good luck with your new hobby and if you find you actually do need different wood and want to try the Sassafras or Black Willow, I can ship you either one. The wood, not the charcoal. No charge, other than just the shipping. I'm thinking you'll like the Red Cedar pretty well.
Post your results and if you have problems, let us know.
Last edited by DoubleBuck; 10-20-2022 at 02:53 PM. Reason: That dang wall of confusion again.
For those "Wood Challenged", I understand. I am in Lake Havasu City, Az., and truly, I have seen pictures of the Mars landscape that look more lush.
So I tried "Red Cedar pet bedding" from Walmart. A few bucks for a bag that will make a bunch of powder. Nice curly cue chips that cook up and grind down super easily, and it makes very good powder. When you get it, you might think it's not all that much, but it's tightly packed in there, and you'll find it makes several pounds of powder.
A ways back, someone mentioned cooking containers. I'm super happy with my Dutch Oven for that. It holds a more even temp than tin cans, works great and lasts forever. I don't "double wrap" (can within can) when using it.
Grain size? Small is supposed to be faster and create more (peak) pressure from everything I've read in my extensive studying, so I'll be very interested in any tests of that. Everyone here seems to want fast, Fast, FASTER! Heavier projectiles and/or longer barrels do better with slightly slower powders, usually...
Fun stuff!!
Cedar wood for charcoal:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Vibrant-L...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
My charcoal cooker: (I added the thermometer and two screw in vent plugs.)
Vettepilot
EDIT TO ADD:
I do get slightly better results when I wrap Kaowool insulation around the sides of the oven. The process for a full batch goes quite quickly though. About 20 minutes from dead cold to done deal with a clear full batch of cedar chips.
Last edited by Vettepilot; 10-19-2022 at 08:14 PM.
"Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)
This is Woody's puck dies that I have been using. His shop is just 10 miles from my house. I have the 3" and have done just fine with a 12 ton press and I have at least four layers of the delrin plastic disks to separate the pucks into five layers so that they are fairly thin once compressed. Thinner is so much easier to dry, bust up, and grind down to a proper size for screening.
If you have the equipment and the ability, you can make something similar to what Woody's shows here in this link. Or purchase from him if you wish. He mostly makes the tooling for fireworks making. He does not make fireworks himself, but from the short visit I had with him, he did seem to know a bit about making Black Powder and certainly has a nice shop for making all sorts of tools.
https://www.woodysrocks.com/store/p2...k_Press.html#/
Comment: Like others posted, after milling the meal (and mill it well) and you are ready to make pucks, you do not want to dampen your meal to be wet to the point that moisture is forced out of the compression die. Try a small amount of meal with your first compression to make sure it is not too damp. Like others have suggested in earlier postings, use a spray bottle to more evenly moisten the meal with water and just give it a few sprays of water and mix well before spraying further if needed. It really does not have to be wet, but just damp enough so that when you squeeze a fist full of the meal, it wants to stay in a clump. Not a wet clump, but yet it compacts with just clinched fist pressure.
I have found that after drying the pucks a few days and grinding and screening, the screened powder will burn quite well even though it actually is still slightly damp. It seems to be dry, but dry it out more in the sun or a dehydrator, etc. for a few hours and it will really make some good BP. I like to take my screened and dried powder outside during a mild breezy day and let the light wind separate the dust from the screened granules. I try to catch the dust on a tarp spread out downwind so I can save it along with any remaining fines for the next batch of powder that I make.
Last edited by HamGunner; 10-19-2022 at 10:23 PM. Reason: Extra Comment
73 de n0ubx, Rick
NRA Benefactor Life Member/VFW Life Member
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