My homemade black powder

[mmb617]

Are these CVA's converted from percussion to flint ?

No they are Traditions flintlock rifles. I would guess that their preference for the finer powder is related to their patent breech design and the way fouling accumulates perhaps blocking all but the finest granules from fully filling the firing chamber. The two rifles I mentioned will work well with 3f for the first few shots but after that I get a lot of pan flashes if I don't switch to 4f.

I generally shoot 20-30 shots at a session and don't do any swabbing between shots. I do pick the vent hole before every shot to make sure it's clear.

I have two other Traditions flintlock rifles with the same patent breech design and I thought they both worked well with 3f as charge, but looking through my records the Hawken had 37 flashes out of 521 shots for 7% failure and the Deerhunter had 40 flashes out of 399 shots for 10% failure. I'd be willing to bet they'd both do better with 4f charges.

With all this in mind I'd be happy if I could grind my powder so that I'd yield as much 4f as possible. I did a little experimentation yesterday by taking some of the 3f I already had made and running it through my grinder on it's finest setting. I ended up with about 50% of the 3f turned into 4f and 50% into fines. That's more fines than I'd like to have to reprocess but maybe that's as good as it's going to get. The next time I make a fresh batch of powder I'll play with the settings on both the mill and the grinder to see if I can get more 4f without too many fines.

While I'm talking about reprocessing fines I have another question for you guys. I've noticed that when I reprocess my fines I get harder pucks than those that are made from fresh meal. This is just a seat of the pants observation, I'll have to check some weight to volume samples to say for sure. Another project for this winter. Has anyone else noticed or verified this? To my mind the reprocessed fines have been run through the press twice so it could make sense if they are more dense. But I will need to check this out more.

[DoubleBuck]

mmb617;
I have noticed a difference in the repucked fines. Like you, I don't know for sure what it is.
I have wondered if fines retain the recipe numbers. I can get equal density, but wonder if the grains change from being twice pressed. For that reason, I mix my re processed fines back in with the powder, in case they are heavy or light in one ingredient or other. It may not make a difference, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it does. I have checked weight to volume and didn't notice a difference, but that may not mean anything, too. And, have chronographed a few shots, of reprocessed fines but never on the same day. And, that seems to make a difference in itself. One thing I have noticed from playing; reprocessed fines have a slower burn rate than finished first run powder. For that reason, I have thought of re milling the fines, before pucking, but never have. If you come up with answers, please share. Buck

[LAGS]

I have had good performance from the Reprocessed fines with the Corned Powder.
But I do re tumble the fines to make sure that all the powder is all the same ground up powder again.
On Screened powder , I found that on the recycled stuff I had to add back a little more binder.

[DoubleBuck]

That re milling of the fines may be the key.

[mmb617]

soon as I drop my powder charge I give that gun three or four solid claps with open hand right close to the lock area to settle the powder, never had that problem again but I see it on the range most shoots. If youre not doin the same with your patent breech gun ya should start (its a way worse problem with FFpowder and worse again with homemade because the ungraphited just dont flow like commercial)

That makes a lot of sense. I'll have to try it. Often someone makes a suggestion that after hearing it seems so obvious you wonder why you didn't think of it yourself.

At one time I was filling my powder measure and just dumping it down the barrel all at once till I read that pouring it slower helped keep the powder from bridging before it filled the chamber. So I started pouring slower and by George that did seem to help. I can understand how a few slaps on the breech area after filling and before ramming might also help fill the chamber.

I save my fines and blend it back through the mill with new stuff - just tryin to remove one more variable.

When I make a fresh batch of meal I take the fines from the previous batch and dump them in before I do the pre-press wetting, but I haven't run those fines back through the mill. My whole powder making process undergoes continuous changes that are hopefully for the better. I think most of the main points are worked out now but there's always a little something that could use more tweaking.

[HWooldridge]

A friend of mine shot flinters for a long time; his habit was to tilt the frizzen to the side after priming the pan and closing the lock, so the 4F falls away from the flash hole. He felt that habit yielded less hang fires and pan flashes.

[Richard66]

Earlier in this post some were talking about the homemade powder not being as powerful as factory ie lower velocity so they were increasing the powder charge of homemade to get same velocity as factory so since a finer powder usually requires less to achieve the same velocity why not just use a finer powder with the same volume as the factory powder. Has anyone tried this just wondering

[DoubleBuck]

Richard66;
My testing and playing has shown me that I can get more difference in velocity from smaller grain size than from a moderate increase of weight in larger grains.
For example, one test with a .50 cal., 60 grains of <12 >24 grain homemade averaged about 1460 fps. While 75 grains of the same powder averaged 1562 fps. But, when I switched to <24 >50 grain powder of the same batch, 60 grains averaged 1509 fps and 75 grains averaged 1607 fps.
I've read that if you switch from 2f to 3f, you should drop 10% of weight of charge. However, that same recommendation was of powders of maximum charges of 110 to 125 grains. I don't worry about it, keeping my charges at or under 75 grains.
Maybe somebody else can shed more light for you.

[LAGS]

I have found,
That if you are loading by Volume.
The finer the powder , the more it weighs per the same volume.
That and maybe the finer powder does burn faster because there is actually more surface area .

[HWooldridge]

I have found,
That if you are loading by Volume.
The finer the powder , the more it weighs per the same volume.
That and maybe the finer powder does burn faster because there is actually more surface area .

Agreed - all solid fuels burn only on the grain surface so all else being equal, the smaller particles should burn up faster. No different from a pile of sticks in a fireplace vs one big log. This is also one of the reasons blacksmiths liked smaller pieces of coal or charcoal in the forge - more surface area to burn = hotter fire.

And the finer granulations should theoretically also throw heavier due to less air space between the grains. Of course, the amount of compression, or lack thereof - will also affect weight.

[Richard66]

Richard66;
My testing and playing has shown me that I can get more difference in velocity from smaller grain size than from a moderate increase of weight in larger grains.
For example, one test with a .50 cal., 60 grains of <12 >24 grain homemade averaged about 1460 fps. While 75 grains of the same powder averaged 1562 fps. But, when I switched to <24 >50 grain powder of the same batch, 60 grains averaged 1509 fps and 75 grains averaged 1607 fps.
I've read that if you switch from 2f to 3f, you should drop 10% of weight of charge. However, that same recommendation was of powders of maximum charges of 110 to 125 grains. I don't worry about it, keeping my charges at or under 75 grains.
Maybe somebody else can shed more light for you.

So I see when you went to smaller grain your velocity was increased by about 50 fps with the same grain by volume over the larger grain which is what I was asking about so seems if people would use a finer grain of homemade you could just use the same measure you would use for factory powder. Also I dont understand about your saying about velocity difference in your example you had a 100 fps increase in both powders when you increased powder from 60 to 75 grains So am I missing something?

[DoubleBuck]

Richard66;
Yes, that was my point. When using 60 grains the 2f averaged 1460 and the 3f average was 1509. Basically the same thing happened with 75 grains. They both increased about the same relative amount of velocity, but one increase was from just going from 2f to 3f, with the same weight. Sorry for the confusion. I should have just listed one weight instead of both.

[Richard66]

Here's something to help (possibly) on the grain size to weight variation.
If you have a container which is exactly one cubic foot inside dimension, and you saw out exactly a cubic foot of granite, that granite will exactly fit that container, right?
Now, if you beat that cubic foot of granite into sand, and pour it in the same cubic foot container, it will not all fit. There will be left over sand and the container will be full. The sand has the same density as the cube, but there are air spaces around every grain of sand. The only way that sand will ever exactly fill that container again is if you compressed it back to the same density as the original cube of granite. That is how it works with our powder. Or at least, with corned powder.
This picture is two five gram or CC vials which each have exactly 60 grains of powder. The one on the left is fines from the 3f powder on the right.
Attachment 305638

OK THX I am sure the pictures are by weight not volume

[almar]

Most of the oxygen for the combustion of BP is taken from the KN03 not surrounding air i believe, Kno3 is the oxidizer. The small granules burn up quickly but the flame has less room to propagate between the granules in the 3f than with the 2f. So after a certain amount of powder height stack up, there is a point of diminishing returns for smaller granules.

[DoubleBuck]

Almar;
As far as I know, you're absolutely right. My point was on the air deal, the two powders are exactly the same, except for the extra air. Which is caused by finer grains. The air itself is basically not a factor. The fines do burn just like a lean mixture. The oxidizer is still there, it just can't be put to it's most efficient use. Thanks for the input.

[almar]

Ah i see. Makes sense.

[Richard66]

Yesterday I went to the range with my Goex FF powder and my homemade FF for the first time to compare . I was shooting 50 cal inline with 250 grain lead bullet with T/C yellow sabot . With 60 gr volume goex velocity was 1300fps with homemade it was 1100 so I increased homemade to 70 gr and velocity was 1200 I was not able to test other charges but will try to later I guess this is about average for homemade compared to factory

[DoubleBuck]

To save any further confusion, I deleted my post entirely. And will just say this. The smaller the grains of powder, the larger the volume. Sorry for the confusion. I thought it might help, but I guess not.
Indian Joe;
I agree with your estimation of small grains burning faster. Now, tell us why everybody doesn't just use fines for charges, instead of 3f, or 2f or 1f, which the original post question asked. Maybe you can 'splain it where I was not able to.

[LAGS]

I tried shooting off some fines in a cannon that I use to have.
The fines worked more like flash powder and not as consistant as granular stuff.
Plus.
Being so fine , there better not be any wind blowing when you reload.
The fines had a lot of Air Fly dust.
So it would blow all over the place when you tried to fill the powder measure or pour the fines into the bore.

[DoubleBuck]

Fines burn so fast, it would seem like everyone would just grind their powder to dust and use that. I don't understand why grain sizes were ever brought into play. The experts say one gram of fines has exactly the same energy as any of the grain sizes. It would certainly take a lot of work out of making powder.