My homemade black powder

[ChrisPer]

Similar for me; my '15' is a kitchen sieve and what stays on it gets reground. Then
20
40
60
100
Fitted pan for fines.
I am getting apparently good density in pucks of 1.77-1.80.
But bulk density of my powder is 88 to 90 grains in a measure set to 100 grains. Swiss 3F gave me 102 grains in that 100gn measure.
I believe that the overlapping sieve size range (ie 15-30# for FF, 20-50# for FFF, 40-100# FFFF) would increase bulk density. Also that rounding the grains and graphiting them would reduce friction in their flow and settle them more easily which again would increase bulk density.
Charges in my muzzleloaders are doing a great job so I am pretty satisfied. The guys at my club have tested it and compare it to Swiss!
The only reason for doing more work to get high density is for cartridge BP.

mmb617, I too am having to reprocess 4F to get more 2F as I just don't use 4F much.

[maillemaker]

I find the main charge works fine for priming. Even 2F works great in my Brown Bess. So anything finer than 3F goes back to the ball mill.

Steve

[mmb617]

mmb617 could you give some more details of your vibratory sifter setup? Where did you get your screens? How did you make the vibratory setup? Are the screens attached to the table somehow? Does your bottom "screen" have a solid bottom?

I was looking for a way to mechanically shake the screen stack rather than shaking by hand as I felt that would do a better job. I found some vibrating tables for sale but most of them were very expensive, as in $300 and up. I thought I could modify the vibrator I used for cleaning brass prior to reloading and as it turned out it was quite simple to do that. The spindle that goes through the tub threaded into the base so by removing that spindle I was able to find a bolt that fit the threads and used that to attach a square of plywood. I then added a piece of non-slip rubber and called it done. It works really well.



I got my screens from Amazon and they were expensive, but well made and should last forever. The bottom one is a pan with a flat bottom and came with a lid. The stack is not attached to the table I simply hold my hand on top of it while I run it. This allows me to monitor the progress of the powder through the screens and it only takes a minute or two. I start with the lid on top to keep dust out of the air but then remove it after the initial 15 seconds or so. I can then watch the granules dance around and see when all the pieces small enough to fall through a screen have done so. I then remove the screens one at a time checking each level to make sure the smaller particles have been filtered out. I usually run the vibrator again for a few seconds at each level till I'm sure it's done. This sounds more time consuming than it is, it really doesn't take long at all.

The whole screen stack nests together tightly. Here's a link for them, but as I warned you the price is pretty high!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TP2BHJQ...roduct_details

mmb617, I too am having to reprocess 4F to get more 2F as I just don't use 4F much.

I was getting more 4f than I'll ever need for priming which is what prompted me to try using the excess 4f as charge powder rather than having to reprocess it. I haven't seen any problems shooting it in my guns and in fact I think it's working better than some of the bigger sizes.

[maillemaker]

Thanks mmb617 for the write-up on your vibratory sifter.

I like that set because it comes with a lid and a solid-bottom pan, but you are right, those are expensive at $55 a pop.

I'm using some smaller sifters with about a 6" diameter. I'd like some bigger ones for more screen surface area. But, I think I'll try what I have first. It will force me to smaller batches anyway, which is good from a safety perspective. I just wish they made a solid-bottom one and a lid. Guess I'll have to manufacture some.

[Nobade]

I've been getting my screens on Ebay for pretty cheap. Make sure you get the normal height 8 inch ones, sometimes they will fool you. Recently there was somebody selling some with a make an offer button. I offered half of what he was asking and he took it.

[almar]

I was looking for a way to mechanically shake the screen stack rather than shaking by hand as I felt that would do a better job. I found some vibrating tables for sale but most of them were very expensive, as in $300 and up. I thought I could modify the vibrator I used for cleaning brass prior to reloading and as it turned out it was quite simple to do that. The spindle that goes through the tub threaded into the base so by removing that spindle I was able to find a bolt that fit the threads and used that to attach a square of plywood. I then added a piece of non-slip rubber and called it done. It works really well.



I got my screens from Amazon and they were expensive, but well made and should last forever. The bottom one is a pan with a flat bottom and came with a lid. The stack is not attached to the table I simply hold my hand on top of it while I run it. This allows me to monitor the progress of the powder through the screens and it only takes a minute or two. I start with the lid on top to keep dust out of the air but then remove it after the initial 15 seconds or so. I can then watch the granules dance around and see when all the pieces small enough to fall through a screen have done so. I then remove the screens one at a time checking each level to make sure the smaller particles have been filtered out. I usually run the vibrator again for a few seconds at each level till I'm sure it's done. This sounds more time consuming than it is, it really doesn't take long at all.

The whole screen stack nests together tightly. Here's a link for them, but as I warned you the price is pretty high!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TP2BHJQ...roduct_details



I was getting more 4f than I'll ever need for priming which is what prompted me to try using the excess 4f as charge powder rather than having to reprocess it. I haven't seen any problems shooting it in my guns and in fact I think it's working better than some of the bigger sizes.

i wonder if that polishes the powder as well and removes the dust at the same time. Say if you run it for 20 minutes of so. The screens would have to contain the dust.

[Vettepilot]

mmb617: When you first made your "power screener", I thought; "Nice idea, but I don't think I'll go there." It just didn't seem necessary for me.

But on further pondering, making our own powder is rather time consuming, and anything that makes it quicker-easier-more efficient probably is worth it. So, I'm going to make a similar setup. I already have the vibrating tumbler, so why the hell not, heh?

We had a death in the family, (Covid), and a lot of other things going on, but I finally got back to the little HF tumbler project and finished it. Works great!

Edit to add: That higher power motor (by a factor of 3) that I used went way up in price on Amazon, but so far it's still available cheaper elsewhere if you do a search.
(Broan 99080599 Bath Fan Motor, 120 V)

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

In other items today, here's a suggestion for better/easier splitting of wood to char. Go to Harbor Freight and get one of their cheap machetes. Set the blade where you want to split the wood, then raise the wood and the machete up together, then bring down sharply against the floor to get the blade just started cutting into the wood. Then grab your mallet for knocking boolit mold sprue plates, and whack on the back of the machete blade until the wood is split.

Fast, easy, safer, and much better than using a hatchet like I see most people do...

Just my .02 cents.
Vettepilot

[Nobade]

In other items today, here's a suggestion for better/easier splitting of wood to char. Go to Harbor Freight and get one of their cheap machetes. Set the blade where you want to split the wood, then raise the wood and the machete up together, then bring down sharply against the floor to get the blade just started cutting into the wood. Then grab your mallet for knocking boolit mold sprue plates, and whack on the back of the machete blade until the wood is split.

Fast, easy, safer, and much better than using a hatchet like I see most people do...

Just my .02 cents.
Vettepilot

And even better if you can find or make a froe. That's what they're for (splitting shingles).

[Vettepilot]

Been re-reading from this series: http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/...powder-ii.html

Here's a quote regarding our burn testing:

"If good quality black powder is ignited over a sheet of white paper, it will burn rapidly and leave no residue on the paper. If black spots are found, then this indicates that either the mixture contains too much charcoal or the powder is badly mixed. The same can be said for sulfur if yellow spots are left behind. If unburned grains are found, this indicates that the saltpeter is impure. The powder should not burn holes into the paper, as only moist or otherwise bad black powder does so".

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

Then another from the same source, regarding temperature induced combustion, which at some point we had discussed here:

"The third method (heating it beyond a certain temperature) has some interesting effects. Black powder may be ignited when heated rapidly above a certain temperature, even without the presence of an open flame. The temperature at which this happens depends on the nature of the powder and the proportions of its ingredients and grain size. An experiment by Horsley in the 1800s showed that black powder could be ignited by heating it to around 600 °F (about 315 °C) by heating a saucer in an oil-bath, with the temperature of the oil being taken by a thermometer dipped into it. Experiments by Leygue and Champion in 1871 used a more precise method to determine ignition temperatures and the found that a common sporting powder ignited around 550 °F (about 288 °C), while cannon powder ignited around 563 °F (about 295 °C). However, note that we said that the powder should be heated rapidly for it to ignite. What if it is heated slowly?? Leygue and Champion detail some interesting issues here: They discovered that the grains of corned black powder cake together on account of the sulfur they contain. However, note that black powder before ignition is a mixture, which means it retains many of the physical properties of its separate ingredients. When the temperature of black powder is slowly increased beyond 212 °F (about 100 °C, the temperature of boiling water), the sulfur begins to volatilize and turn into vapor. The volatilization of sulfur rapidly increases with temperature and if the temperature is slowly increased upwards, but kept below the boiling point of sulfur, then the sulfur can be completely driven out of the powder without any ignition taking place. When the sulfur is completely eliminated from the mixture, the temperature can be further increased, so that even the saltpeter melts, and the charcoal ends up floating on top of it, thereby separating out the two ingredients from each other. If, on the other hand, the temperature is rapidly increased before the sulfur is completely volatilized, then the sulfur vapor is ignited and causes the powder to explode. The shape and size of the grains of black powder have considerable influence on the temperature of ignition as well".

Interesting...

Vettepilot

[ChrisPer]

I got my sieves a lot cheaper at aliexpress. Sieves
Sadly they were not packed sufficiently and were deformed in shipping.

[mmb617]

i wonder if that polishes the powder as well and removes the dust at the same time. Say if you run it for 20 minutes of so. The screens would have to contain the dust.

Before I made this power vibrator I was screening my powder through some homemade screens I'd attached to wood frames and shaking them by hand. No matter how much I shook them I couldn't get enough of the fines out to make the powder flow properly. The 3f tended to clog badly both going from flask to powder measure and going from measure to barrel. The 4f was even harder to get out of the pan primer. It just wouldn't flow. The powder shot ok but was a real pain to load.

I watch the powder dance on the screen while it vibrates with this setup and you can pretty much see the dust falling out. It's actually neat to see the patterns it makes on the screens as it moves in waves. A couple minutes max is all it takes till just about all the dust is gone. I'm sure it's not completely dust free but it flows pretty much the same as the Goex I used to shoot, even from the primer to the pan. So I haven't felt the need to do any real polishing.

mmb617: When you first made your "power screener", I thought; "Nice idea, but I don't think I'll go there." It just didn't seem necessary for me.
I already have the vibrating tumbler, so why the hell not, heh?

I already had the vibrating tumbler also and at first I thought I'd just switch it back and forth from powder making to brass cleaning as needed since it doesn't take much to swap from one to the other. But then I got lazy. My reloading equipment is all in the basement and my powder making operation is in a separate building, so I went ahead and bought another vibrator so I wouldn't need to switch them.

Glad to hear that your HF tumbler motor mod worked out well. Mines a lot different but I'm happy with it too. Just shows there is more than one way to get things done.

I got my sieves a lot cheaper at aliexpress. Sieves
Sadly they were not packed sufficiently and were deformed in shipping.

Looks like those are about half the price I paid and they appear to be the same size and quality. Mine took a few weeks to arrive so I assume they were shipped from China but they did all arrive intact.

[maillemaker]

When the temperature of black powder is slowly increased beyond 212 °F (about 100 °C, the temperature of boiling water), the sulfur begins to volatilize and turn into vapor.

This is interesting. When I dry my pucks in my food dehydrator, the pucks give off a peculiar smell. It is somewhat "sulfury" an odor. I think my pucks get to around 185F or so. Hopefully I'm not driving off much sulfur.

I watch the powder dance on the screen while it vibrates with this setup and you can pretty much see the dust falling out. It's actually neat to see the patterns it makes on the screens as it moves in waves. A couple minutes max is all it takes till just about all the dust is gone. I'm sure it's not completely dust free but it flows pretty much the same as the Goex I used to shoot, even from the primer to the pan. So I haven't felt the need to do any real polishing.

I suspect that vibratory tumbling will not only help de-dust the powder but will somewhat abrade the grains against the screens and themselves and thus effectively polish the grains to some degree also.

[almar]

Im pretty busy these days setting up the homestead with a new coop, more gardens and fruit trees and a little wheat, as well as other things but this would be a quick thing to build and try in between projects. The puck making takes 10-15 minutes or so per pound. With the grain mill I process all the pucks in almost no significant time and now the screening/dusting-polishing would be done simultaneously…great time saver if it works well.

[jmh54738]

I am impressed with the progress and quality of home made BP. It is difficult to extract data from 5600 posts to this topic. So, what is a common puck diameter and thickness, and how much pressure is applied to the slightly dampened green powder. Once the pucks are dry, what method is best used to reduce the pucks to granules for screening. I am reading grain mills, coffee grinders, etc. Working independently of this site , my pucks are 1 3/4" diameter by 1 3/4" tall, pressed 8 ton. They are difficult to break up. My powder slightly exceeds the velocity of GOEX. The density of my powder is about 83% of GOEX. My charcoal is cooked from home raised white pine. I just cooked a batch of grape vine for a test batch. Also, in researching soft, fast growing woods, Aspen, is a wood that I also will try, as I have that growing. Aspen is very weak, with branches easily broken off in a wind storm.
John.

[LAGS]

I would suggest that you pressed pucks not be thicker than 1/2".
I tried White Pine.
It worked good , but did leave a lot of soot.
Cedar works really good.
Willow charcoal that I got from another member worked best.
But trying things like grape Vines and other fast growing woods is a good option.
I wish we had Balsa wood trees here in Az.

[Vettepilot]

Yes. If you're pretty happy with pine, do try the red cedar. Much cleaner burning. I use red cedar pet bedding chips from Walmart. About 4 bucks for a big bag that will make around 8 lbs. or more of powder. It's pretty handy; very easy to cook/process, and makes very good powder.

Vettepilot

[jmh54738]

Thanks for the suggestions, I will try red cedar bedding. I also have red cedar growing here. I ran the grape vine charcoal through the hand crank burr mill today. It was quite hard and crunchy compared to white pine. I debarked and split Aspen today, getting it ready to cook. What methods have been found to best break up the puck for granulating and screening. I will make up a 2" to 2 1/2 inch diameter mold and keep the pucks to around 1/2" thick. Currently, I crush the puck in an aluminum bread pan, on Bridgeport mill, using a 1" diameter aluminum shaft with diamond knurl (6 per inch) milled onto the end. No power, of course, just using the spindle like a stamping mill. I initially set the spindle stop to keep my "stomper" about 3/16" from the bottom of the aluminum pan, moving it closer as the powder is screened and returned for reducing grain side. Yea, this method is a pain. I crush one puck at a time, around 70 grams.
John

[Vettepilot]

I was going to take some 2-1/2" aluminum round stock, and mill "tic-tac-toe" patterns about 1/2" deep in the end for crushing pucks. But then it came up here to keep your pucks to 3/8" thick, then use a grain mill for both busting the pucks up, and grinding them. By all accounts, it works bichin'. (Remarked on not too far back in this thread.)

I've since bought one, but haven't had a chance to use it yet.

Vettepilot