My homemade black powder

[almar]

Because I haven't yet had a chance to relax today, I've looked at some kanthal wire coils and spools in between tasks. I am thinking about how big I want to make my kiln.

Almar, you haven't checked the max temp your kiln can reach yet, right? And you set it up for 1500w? I am thinking I will do a similarly and put it on a 15A circuit. I was thinking about building a bigger one that would be big enough for a 10-12 inch pizza and a small kindling fire. Use the electric to get it heated up and use the kindling fire for radiative cooking of the top of the pizza.

That may be a more involved project than I want to do right now though. I just want to make some more charcoal!

I'm thinking, an 18ish gauge wire roughly 20ft long if around 0.5ohm/ft. Not sure what kind of PID I need yet. I have used them, but not in an electrical element application yet.

That seems like a great project, I built mine in very little time because I wanted results that same day. So I planned it that way. as a bonus, It turned out to be durable too. I didn't want the kiln build to be a project, the project was perfecting my powder. The length, gauge and type of wire you mentioned is exactly what I used. Actually I used 24 feet I think. The wire was wound around a 3/8 rod in a lathe very slowly to make it tight. I think the final length was 12 inches or so and I stretched it to the required length I needed after the kiln was built.

edit:not a 3/8 rod. I used a 1/4 rod.

[Vettepilot]

Merry Christmas everybody, been away from the thread for two weeks or so while getting my 21 foot center console boat together after being in storage for about three years. Still planning on cooking up some brown Carolina Willow charcoal for my next batch.

Wonder if I can mount my .54 caliber BP ship's cannon on her front bow deck for some fun.

For that, you need what's called a "PUNT GUN". That would be cool.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun

Vettepilot

[almar]

HighUintas, Nice to see you posting again. I seems That this powder making has an infinite learning curve, or at least one that will go on for a long time if you let it. That kiln with PID is certainly a useful tool to making a very consistent charcoal time after time and its basically a set it and forget it type deal which I appreciate. The brown charcoal in my tests was the first marked improvement for my powder.

The second detail, which was much less obvious and frustrating to figure out, was indeed the density. I was getting different results from the same batch of milled powder until we figured it out. The system I use now gives me very accurate and consistent density and no special equipment is required, you just need a scale and do some basic math to calculate final volume. I like my powder about 1.6 g/cc or so, I find that it gave me the best balance of power and fouling to grain toughness.

And last but certainly not least, like VP mentioned a lot, was milling, optimal ball mill speed and length of milling time is very crucial and was my latest marked improvement in velocity. Its not as easy to measure but a properly milled powder should burn clean with a flash or puff.

As for your flow problem, I am curious about how much moisture you add to your milled powder before pressing, this seemed to occur when I used to add about 10 times the required moisture to the milled powder...moisture should be extremely slight, maybe 2-5 water sprays per pound of milled powder. More like 2 in humid climate. Finished pucks should be a medium grey, not dark.

I will experiment again with reducing the charcoal content and increasing the KNO3 in my next batches now that the other variables are controlled. Logically, it should be more efficient and produce less carbon but time will tell.

As a follow up to this after miling a batch today. I would report that I see very little difference between 78-12-10 and 76-14-10 for both fouling and energy. Maybe with more testing there may be one but its isn't going to give you very significant gains or losses from what I see.

[SeaMonkey]

Your experiences with various proportions seem to validate Bretscher's graph which shows that a good powder can have significant deviation from the 75:15:10 formula.

It is good to know that an extremely accurate scale isn't an absolute necessity when weighing out the ingredients.

Although, there must be a formulation of percentages of each component which minimizes the amount of fouling.

Or not.

I reckon we'll find it if there really is one that does it.

Has anyone tried a low Sulfur mix to determine how that affects performance?

Bretscher in his articles revealed that an 80:20 mix of Potassium Nitrate and Charcoal produced very little smoke and a pleasant smell but was somewhat more difficult to ignite.

[almar]

Thanks for that graph seamonkey. It seems that we are pretty much around that top peak. Some things may change with a lower temp charcoal needing less sulphur though. I tried lower it to 8 parts and got bad results but othervthings were likely in play like poor milling and higher density. My current powder makes a surprisingly low amount of smoke but less is better. I may give it a try, as long as the velocity per grain stays about the same ill use it. I dont want to have several lots of powders that give different points of impact.

[almar]

If that becomes a problem go out in the yard with a big stainless pot, tip it all in, mix slowly and carefully with a wooden spoon, rescreen it all to grade, now instead of 47 little bits of leftovers you have one even, consistent, batch.

This is what i am currently doing with all the batches i've been making recently. I may not do it though with a batch that is very "off" because it may cause more inconsistency from grain to grain.

I did some more testing with the sharps today on this fantastic day off, im liking the standard deviation alot, i only recorded the last 3 shots unfortunately but its very promising.
By weight, 65 grains of this new batch of 1.5F gives 1242 fps average with a 543 grain bullet with 1:20 tin alloy in a "535gr" bullet mold from CBE. It has about 0.100 compression because the volume this 65 occupies is about 75 grains on the volumetric scale.

The accuracy at 50 yards is about 1 inch from 6 shots prone but i still have alot to learn about reloading BPC for precision and also shooting. I typically get 0.3 MOA with my .308 from a bench but shooting a 540 monster bullet at 1240 fps in a 34 inch barrel and iron sights is not the same as a 168 gr bullet going at 2700 fps in a 24 inch barrel with high power scope...i have alot to learn about trigger pull and consistency from shot to shot.



From Mike venturino's book he got 1230 fps with 73 grains by weight and 530 gr Postell bullet so i think this charge is close to being "it" for this bullet. No joke, it sure kicks.

[HighUintas]

This is what i am currently doing with all the batches i've been making recently. I may not do it though with a batch that is very "off" because it may cause more inconsistency from grain to grain.

I did some more testing with the sharps today on this fantastic day off, im liking the standard deviation alot, i only recorded the last 3 shots unfortunately but its very promising.
By weight, 65 grains of this new batch of 1.5F gives 1242 fps average with a 543 grain bullet with 1:20 tin alloy in a "535gr" bullet mold from CBE. It has about 0.100 compression because the volume this 65 occupies is about 75 grains on the volumetric scale.

The accuracy at 50 yards is about 1 inch from 6 shots prone but i still have alot to learn about reloading BPC for precision and also shooting. I typically get 0.3 MOA with my .308 from a bench but shooting a 540 monster bullet at 1240 fps in a 34 inch barrel and iron sights is not the same as a 168 gr bullet going at 2700 fps in a 24 inch barrel with high power scope...i have alot to learn about trigger pull and consistency from shot to shot.



From Mike venturino's book he got 1230 fps with 73 grains by weight and 530 gr Postell bullet so i think this charge is close to being "it" for this bullet. No joke, it sure kicks.

Almar, in your reading do you have any idea how many fps you lose per inch of barrel when going with shorter barrels? I was getting around 1275 with my good powder and a 405gr bullet from my 24" 45-90 barrel. I think my load was 68gr. I have been wondering if my powder was as fast as it could be. On the other hand, I'd get about 1350fps with 72gr FF olde eynsford.

Looking at that graph SeaMonkey posted, it seems he kept the kno3 at 100 parts and the peak energy is with the coal being 15-20 parts and the sulfur being 16 parts. That gives a much higher sulfur content by percent weight than what we've been doing. I think I read somewhere that the sulfur also acts as propellant due to the gas products it creates, but not sure. I wonder if we'd get more potent powder with a 12% sulfur formula? I don't like the idea of grinding an even more sensitive powder though

[almar]

humm there are too many variables to extrapolate, i used 1.5f, 34 inch barrel and i used a 540 grain bullet. However if your powder made less velocity than OE than its likely that you can get alot more from your custom powder.

[SeaMonkey]

A very fast burning Black Powder is great for short barrels and pistols.

For long barrels such as rifles or muskets a slower burning Black Powder is best in order to attain the highest projectile velocities.



The timing of the combustion shockwave peak relative to the barrel length depends upon the speed of the powder.

When it comes to Black Powder "quickness," faster is not always better.

Some of the Black Powder brands or Substitutes often burn disappointingly slowly when burn tested but perform quite well in the gun.

The Sulfur content has much to do with the quickness of the powder burn in addition to lowering its ignition temperature.

Reduced Sulfur content will result in a slower burning powder.

With sufficient Trial and Error testing as Almar is presently engaged in, it should be possible to ultimately develop the "Perfect Black Powder" for the Muzzle Loader of choice.

[HighUintas]

That's a very interesting excerpt! Thanks, SeaMonkey!

Are you the one of the guys from that paper cartridges YouTube video on black powder?

[almar]

seamonkey, did you ever find the ratios used to make brown powder?

edit: nevermind, got it

"This powder had a different composition than black powder, consisting of 79% niter, 3% sulfur and 18% charcoal (whereas most black powders of that era were around 75% niter, 10% sulfur and 15% charcoal) and also contained about 1-2% moisture. The charcoal for this powder was also made in a different manner. We've studied how charcoal was manufactured for black powder earlier. Brown or red charcoal is a charcoal that is made by under-burning organic material. The material used for producing this charcoal was rye straw. The straw was piled into large stacks and stored in open air for long periods of time, the stalks being large and thick, with the ears of rye removed from it. Then, the straw was placed in large wrought-iron chambers and superheated steam was pumped over the straw for several hours. The temperature of the superheated steam was carefully controlled. The superheated steam would dissolve most of the extractive matter from the straw, but would not char it fully and the result was a charcoal of a reddish or brown color (in French, this was called charbon roux). We studied about this charcoal production process using steam earlier."

but there is this..

"However, this powder did not burn all that cleanly (one test showed that about 43% of the powder was burned, the remainder formed large clouds of smoke) and it also left deposits in the bore. Therefore, when smokeless powders, such as the French Poudre B and the British Cordite powder were developed, brown powders became obsolete shortly after."

[HighUintas]

Hey vettepilot, will a quart size paint can fit inside that HF cast iron dutch oven you have?

I'm not going to be able to build a kiln soon so I'm thinking about ways to stabilize the temperature around my paint can retort to better control temperature and get a more uniform char. A paint can on a propane burner doesn't equate to consistency! The easiest thing I can think of is either to pack sand around the paint can in my 20qt SS pot and put that on the propane burner, or to get some ceramic fiber insulation and wrap it around the stock pot with it on the burner and with my retort inside. Option 3 would be to get the cast iron dutch oven. All 3 methods will be taxing on my propane bottle and the sand method would probably use the most.

[SeaMonkey]

It is true that the "Brown Powder" or "Cocoa Powder" didn't burn "all that cleanly." Like all forms of Black Powder it produced deposits or "fouling" as it burned in the gun.

About 43% of the Brown Powder, as a result of combustion, was gaseous with the remaining 57% being solid particulate which produced the smoke. It all burned.

In other words, it was essentially equivalent to Black Powder with respect to combustion products, but it did indeed result in much greater muzzle velocities in the Big Guns.

I should add that the Steam Torrefied Rye Straw was chosen for unique properties but it is not necessary. Other kinds of Brown Torrefied Wood also work splendidly.


Question from High Uintas:

Are you the one of the guys from that paper cartridges YouTube video on black powder?

No, I'm just an old codger who maintains a very low profile.

[almar]

well, there is no reason to debate about it, i'll make a batch tomorrow, i'm thinking 78-17-5 for starters. Cutting the sulfur in half should give a good indication if this is a good idea. If it turns out to be bad, i can adjust the contents and mill again to not waste the batch.

[HighUintas]

:



No, I'm just an old codger who maintains a very low profile.

Well sir, you seem to be a wealth of knowledge. I appreciate you sharing it!

[SeaMonkey]

I came across this video some time ago. The young man may be on to something.

I'm eager to try this method myself. I've heard others talk about how well it works.

Using just the right amount of water and stirring it rapidly as it cools seems to be the real "secret."

And milling the Charcoal and the Sulfur together for a suitable amount of time.

Much safer it looks to me than the "CIA" method which made use of a lot of alcohol.

His YouTube Channel


Here is another one of Bretscher's very helpful graphs:



It agrees with Almar's findings that the range of Brown Charcoal Charring Temperatures range from about 500 to 600 Degrees Fahrenheit.

[Trapper-Jack]

Hey vettepilot, will a quart size paint can fit inside that HF cast iron dutch oven you have?

I'm not going to be able to build a kiln soon so I'm thinking about ways to stabilize the temperature around my paint can retort to better control temperature and get a more uniform char. A paint can on a propane burner doesn't equate to consistency! The easiest thing I can think of is either to pack sand around the paint can in my 20qt SS pot and put that on the propane burner, or to get some ceramic fiber insulation and wrap it around the stock pot with it on the burner and with my retort inside. Option 3 would be to get the cast iron dutch oven. All 3 methods will be taxing on my propane bottle and the sand method would probably use the most.

This is how I made my last batch of charcoal and am happy with it. I used a propane turkey fryer burner, gallon paint can and a steel (about 3 gallon) bucket. I put the empty steel bucket upside down over the paint can and used a surface thermometer on the bottom of the bucket to maintain the temperature control. I was able to keep the temperature between 500 and 600 degrees by turning the flame up or down. Simple and cheap.

[mmb617]

This is how I made my last batch of charcoal and am happy with it. I used a propane turkey fryer burner, gallon paint can and a steel (about 3 gallon) bucket. I put the empty steel bucket upside down over the paint can and used a surface thermometer on the bottom of the bucket to maintain the temperature control. I was able to keep the temperature between 500 and 600 degrees by turning the flame up or down. Simple and cheap.

Thanks for the idea. I'm using a one gallon paint can and started making the charcoal with a wood fire in which the wood was stacked up against the sides of the paint can. That worked well but I bought a turkey fryer ring thinking it would be easier than having to build a wood fire. But I soon found out that the cedar sticks in the bottom of the retort cooked while those at the top did not. I was thinking of ways around that and toyed with the idea of building a rack that would tilt the paint can 45* over the propane ring and then turning the can 1/4 turn every 15 minutes, since it usually takes about an hour to fully cook the charcoal. But your idea of bringing heat to the top of the can sounds much better.

I usually judge when the cooking is done by the lack of smoke from the top vent hole which I couldn't do with your method. I assume you are just going by time to tell when it's done? By keeping the temperature consistent the time needed to cook should be the same every time, no?

[almar]

my system is a small paint can inside a large paint can. The small paint can is centered in the large one and raise off the bottom with a stainless screen i made into a shelf. The thermocouple is in the small one at the edge.

[HighUintas]

This is how I made my last batch of charcoal and am happy with it. I used a propane turkey fryer burner, gallon paint can and a steel (about 3 gallon) bucket. I put the empty steel bucket upside down over the paint can and used a surface thermometer on the bottom of the bucket to maintain the temperature control. I was able to keep the temperature between 500 and 600 degrees by turning the flame up or down. Simple and cheap.

This is essentially how I've cooked all my charcoal except for thermometer placement. Are you saying you put the thermometer on the outside of the bottom of the steel bucket?

My method was to put the gallon paint can on it's side directly on the propane burner stand (a turkey fryer burner) and then I put a stainless 5gal pot upside down over the retort to create an "oven" effect. I had a dial grill thermometer screwed in the lid of my retort and I'd rotate the the retort a quarter turn every 10 minutes or so, checking the temp at the same time. I found that the retort would just get too hot on the side near the burner.

So here's what I'm thinking for a modification.

Wrap ceramic insulation around the stainless pot, put the pot right side up on the burner with a couple of lava rocks inside and the retort sitting on those. Then hopefully the temperature in my "oven" would be more even and I'd be able to take the lid off the stainless pot to check temp. I'd use my high temp thermocouple on my multimeter inside the pot to monitor oven temp.