My homemade black powder

[almar]

HighUintas, Nice to see you posting again. I seems That this powder making has an infinite learning curve, or at least one that will go on for a long time if you let it. That kiln with PID is certainly a useful tool to making a very consistent charcoal time after time and its basically a set it and forget it type deal which I appreciate. The brown charcoal in my tests was the first marked improvement for my powder.

The second detail, which was much less obvious and frustrating to figure out, was indeed the density. I was getting different results from the same batch of milled powder until we figured it out. The system I use now gives me very accurate and consistent density and no special equipment is required, you just need a scale and do some basic math to calculate final volume. I like my powder about 1.6 g/cc or so, I find that it gave me the best balance of power and fouling to grain toughness.

And last but certainly not least, like VP mentioned a lot, was milling, optimal ball mill speed and length of milling time is very crucial and was my latest marked improvement in velocity. Its not as easy to measure but a properly milled powder should burn clean with a flash or puff.

As for your flow problem, I am curious about how much moisture you add to your milled powder before pressing, this seemed to occur when I used to add about 10 times the required moisture to the milled powder...moisture should be extremely slight, maybe 2-5 water sprays per pound of milled powder. More like 2 in humid climate. Finished pucks should be a medium grey, not dark.

I will experiment again with reducing the charcoal content and increasing the KNO3 in my next batches now that the other variables are controlled. Logically, it should be more efficient and produce less carbon but time will tell.

[DoubleBuck]

HighUintas;
About your die losing powder out between the backing plate. You would think if the piston is loose in the die, that the powder would go up between the two. The only time I have experienced that, was when I backed off the press, and it 'sponged' a little out the bottom. But that was only a minimal number of times. It about sounds like the bottom of your die is not square, or the backing plate is not flat, or something. Or possibly your press is not square to the backing plate?

[HighUintas]

HighUintas;
Great to see you back! I figured you would find what's been going on interesting!

It sure is interesting! I'm excited for all you guys. It sounds like I've missed a lot while hunting and being a new dad. I'll have to give you a call sometime soon.

HighUintas, Nice to see you posting again. I seems That this powder making has an infinite learning curve, or at least one that will go on for a long time if you let it. That kiln with PID is certainly a useful tool to making a very consistent charcoal time after time and its basically a set it and forget it type deal which I appreciate. The brown charcoal in my tests was the first marked improvement for my powder.

The second detail, which was much less obvious and frustrating to figure out, was indeed the density. I was getting different results from the same batch of milled powder until we figured it out. The system I use now gives me very accurate and consistent density and no special equipment is required, you just need a scale and do some basic math to calculate final volume. I like my powder about 1.6 g/cc or so, I find that it gave me the best balance of power and fouling to grain toughness.

And last but certainly not least, like VP mentioned a lot, was milling, optimal ball mill speed and length of milling time is very crucial and was my latest marked improvement in velocity. Its not as easy to measure but a properly milled powder should burn clean with a flash or puff.

As for your flow problem, I am curious about how much moisture you add to your milled powder before pressing, this seemed to occur when I used to add about 10 times the required moisture to the milled powder...moisture should be extremely slight, maybe 2-5 water sprays per pound of milled powder. More like 2 in humid climate. Finished pucks should be a medium grey, not dark.

I will experiment again with reducing the charcoal content and increasing the KNO3 in my next batches now that the other variables are controlled. Logically, it should be more efficient and produce less carbon but time will tell.

Yup, those few things I had read in a few literature sources and now I can't remember if I posted them all. i knew they had to be correct but i just couldn't get my process consistent enough to verify the results. One of the sources did a lab test where they compress a column of BP to different densities, all else being the same. They found that the burn rate went down as the column became more dense. And of course as you've found, the density of your BP matters in terms of your specific application. Of course the gr/fps efficiency measure may go up as your pucks are pressed to a lower density, but you can only fit so much in your cylinder, or in my case a 45-90 case. The other very interesting tidbit I found somewhere, and it might have been the same source as the one mentioned above, is that as your hydration level of your meal increases the lower the pressure you need on your puck die to get the meal to a certain puck density. If you're pressing your meal at a fairly low hydration level, like someone had been doing way back, you have to add all 20 tons of the press to get it to "plastify" and become a dense and durable puck.

The last test i did was doing 78/12/10 (swiss recipe), but i had some other changed variable in there that skewed my results.

When i'm pressing my pucks, I'm adding about 2.0g (grams) water to about 67g meal, for a roughly 2.8-3.0% hydration. This was about the most i could add and not lose water out of the bottom of the die. I did this because I wanted to operate at as low a pressure on my press as i could, because if you go back you'll see I killed 2 of these HF 12 tons presses. The first one not being entirely square when i set it up, and the second because i was maxing out the press and the "rebound" of the meal in the die would cause the press ram to come out of square (maybe due to tolerances in my die sleeve/piston?) and then ended up snowballing and bending the thing. So now, I try to operate it to where I have my bow draw weight scale hooked to the press handle at a 90* and go until the weight of the pull is at 40-45lbs and hold it for I think it was 10 or 20 minutes. This seemed to give me a bit of plastification flow without having the press start to bend out of square and get ruined again.

What kinda of brass did you end up finding for your 45-90? I was really wishing i could have found some starline.

Also... i worked in the brewing industry for 10 years and make a lot of homebrewed beer. Let me know if you want any info when you get started on that project!

HighUintas;
About your die losing powder out between the backing plate. You would think if the piston is loose in the die, that the powder would go up between the two. The only time I have experienced that, was when I backed off the press, and it 'sponged' a little out the bottom. But that was only a minimal number of times. It about sounds like the bottom of your die is not square, or the backing plate is not flat, or something. Or possibly your press is not square to the backing plate?

Doublebuck, that is a good point on having the powder go up between the piston and the sleeve, but it doesn't because i'm using hdpe milk carton disc dividers and when that meal starts to plastify and compress, it seems that the hdpe discs start to get caught between the puck column and the sleeve and block the flow upward from above. So, after a few presses I have to cut new discs because they end up turning into a cup shape, similar to a giant primer cup but with shorter side walls.

I don't let off the pressure on the press, I start the press slowly and ramp up the pressure over about 5 minutes or so and then hold for 10 or so.

I've been pressing on an alumninum plate of some sort (have to replace them periodically) and it seems that they eventually are too deformed or get torn due to the BP flowing out from the bottom, catching onto the plate, and then ripping the aluminum plate. I have avoided pressing directly on the steel plates that came with the press. I don't want to introduce the paint into my bp when it inevitably chips off.

I do now keep my press square and the piston and backing plate as much as possible. But with the wide tolerance in the die between the sleeve and piston, it's fairly easy for the piston to come out of square. i got this thing from woodysrocks.... I haven't heard of this issue from anyone else here using the same die.

Here's a link to a few pictures. Sorry it's a link... posting images here is a pain due to having to resize, etc. One picture is a puck that shows the flow out from the bottom of the die. 95% of the stuff that flowed out is broked off, but you can see the portion on the top right of the puck. That's what it looks like but usually much worse. The one aluminum "pot" is done for. You can see how distorted the bottom became and where it tore the aluminum after the piston came out of square.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...YU?usp=sharing



i haven't made any since late July, I think. I'm excited to get back to it!!!

[ChrisPer]

I believe some have been using these since Fly became unavailable:

https://www.woodysrocks.com/store/p2...k_Press.html#/

Before I spent 35 bucks, (and more than once!), on resin, and deal with the mess, etc., I would be buying the aluminum raw materials for a die, and looking up a machine shop. (Try E-bay for aluminum stock, or "Speedy Metals")

Lastly, if you insist on resin, I think a puck made of resin and fiberglass flocking would be stronger/more cohesive. And just file or grind the pad of that jack smooth!!

Vettepilot

All good advice Vettepilot except I don't even need a machine shop, having a share in a small metal lathe. The reason we use sand filler is that it is very near free, and non-sparking. It also means the piston volume is only 30% resin, ie much cheaper because I only used 30ml of resin this time. If the texture is grain-supported the stress is carried between grains and the failure limit of the resin is not so important.

Yes, I ground off the pokeys on top of the jack yesterday. Boy the dribbles of KNO3 solution have sure rusted the jack fast!
Its really hard to find a can the exact slip fit of the die tube. By casting it, the fit is a given!

I did try to get solid aly for the piston, but my suppliers had none of that diameter or near it.

[almar]

I bought some 45 basic brass and made them into 45-90 and someone on this forum sold me what he had left of his no longer used starline 45-90 brass for a few bucks.

You are limited by case capacity, however I set swiss as my benchmark and I seem to be getting better performance with the same volume even though it has less weight and therefore less fouling. The downside is that it is likely that with a lot of transport and shaking around, the powder I make may eventually become dusty. I don't plan on doing that so no worries.

There seems to be a lot involved with building black powder cartridges. Less so for short range like 45 colt, but for longer ranges, a lot of details like compression, grain size, bullet fit, lube etc becomes a factor. I'm currently studying that. One thing that is getting my attention now is primers and compression.

I read that some folks were adding an over the primer wad, at first I thought it was some dainty detail but I now realize that its for slowing down the ignition. The primers we have today are meant for smokeless and are more powerful than the old BP primers, it causes improper ignition. But adding a wad at the bottom of the powder can cause paper doughnuts lodged in the chamber, so im adding a tiny one in the primer pocket and using a large pistol primer to see what difference it makes. I previously used large magnum rifle...

Another detail is compression, if you compress too much it lessens the space between the granules and also affects ignition, so some is good but too much isn't. a drop tube I made from an arrow shaft make a big difference.

Another thing I need to master is follow through and trigger discipline, shooting a .308 with a 24 inch barrel and a bullet going 2700 fps or so isn't the same as shooting a projectile through a 34 inch barrel at 1300 fps. there is more dwell time in the barrel so certain things start making more of a difference.

Im already knee deep into this stuff so another project is certainly not welcomed for now, plus I remember when I made beer and wine in the day, it only made me drink more of it. Kind of like reloading, you just shoot more...

[HighUintas]

Almar, I hear what you are saying! It seems I nearly always have too many irons in the fire! I'm currently trying to finish a shuffleboard table I'm building for the family for christmas, trying to get back into good running shape for a 100 mile mountain race this summer, trying to spend time with a new baby, and my wife, and research roofing so I can put a new roof on my house this spring!

Combine that with everything required for me to make and load my own BP, and I have no time left to brew.

There is a lot that goes into loading those larger BP cartridges for accuracy, it seems. I had been shooting a 405 grain MBC bullet, and I think it was only 68 grains of my own powder that I could fit into the case with a 0.060 compression and 0.020 HDPE milk carton wad. That same load would be something like 72gr of FFg OE powder.

I had been delubing the MBC bullets due to the wrong type of lube and relubimg them with the pan method and my own lube.

Man, there's a lot of time in loading for my 45-90.

[almar]

You run too? The most I ever ran was last year and that was 14 miles. I also ran three 10 milers in 3 days, but I pushed too hard and got a sports hernia, its ok now but that down time really killed it, im picking it up slowly again but a 10k is the most I can do for now. 100 miles is mindboggling!

[HamGunner]

Well, some fellow runners in the group. I used to run cross country in college. Fastest time was 27:41 for 5 miles and once a timed 10 miles at 60 minutes or 10 mph for one hour. But that was 50 years ago. At age 70, I have slowed down a good bit. .

I finished up another 2 lb. batch of BP about a week ago. I used Sassafras charcoal and a faster mill speed and ended up about one grain heavier per my measuring volume so I believe the faster mill speed has helped a bit. For a measured volume of 24 gr. Goex the Sassafras measured 21.5 gr. or right about the same weight per set volume of Black Willow. My now faster milling speed might increase the density of that Black Willow Powder as well.

Sassafras is satisfactory for me, but if I need more powder, I will likely go back to Black Willow as it has been the best that I have tested so far, with Sassafras coming in second place. My Blackthorn was ok, and has low ash, but the speed is lacking a bit. It too was done with the lower milling speed, so even that wood might be passable, just likely not as good as my first two choices so far.

Both Black Willow and Sassafras are readily available around my areas so no reason to settle for lesser results since I can always find them to use. I have 10 lbs. of FFFG made up now, so likely will not need more for a while at the rate I shoot it in my .32 Cal. short CVA squirrel carbine and my Pietta 1851 .36 Cal. revolver.

Oh, and MERRY CHRISTMAS to all.

[almar]

Merry Christmas!

[HighUintas]

Merry Christmas everyone! I hope you all egt to spend plenty of quality time with all of your loved ones.

Yup, I've ran since junior high cross country and that just developed into really long Ng running days in the mountains after I moved west. I only do races very occasionally and then only because it's a new place I've not explored, it I need additional motivation to get back into shape. My number 1 motivator, is that it makes me feel like a healthier and happier person for my family and keeps me in good mountain hunting shape.

I'm excited to hear your increased millspeed results, hamgunner! I can't remember your setup... You're not using a HF tumbler, right? I think I've got my HF tumbler set to 82-84 rpm, ID of the drum being 4" I need to up that to 88-90

[DoubleBuck]

HighUintas;
I looked at your pictures and if what I saw was correct, it looked to me like your aluminum plate was bridged across the 'I'-beams of your press? If so, I would say the aluminum is deflecting, and letting the powder ooze out. Try putting a steel plate across the beams and set the aluminum on it. I would think that would stop the deflection and probably stop the aluminum from tearing, as well.
If your steel plates that came with the press are painted, you should be able to sand them off and maintain a flat edge, with an angle grinder and sanding disk. Or, if you don't have one, just remove the paint with paint remover. If it is powder coat, that may not work.
When I was young in the boonies of Wyoming, I could run all day, with a rifle and my dog. Today, just hearing you guys talk about running makes me hurt.
One more thing, how did you increase the speed of your HF tumbler that fast? With plastic tubing? And, did it cause excessive belt wear, what ever you did? I think mine is down around 40 RPM, but don't remember. And, I just counted them, awhile back.
Merry Christmas everybody! I hope the fat man in the red suit is good to you!!!!

[HamGunner]

My mill is similar to the Thumblers Tumbler 15 lb. mill except that the barrel is located on top and the motor is mounted underneath. It is powered by a 1/4 hp motor and ran at 20 rpm. I increased the motor pulley size and rebelted it so that it now runs at 40 rpm. That actually seems really fast for such a large hexagon shaped barrel, but it seemed to do okay. I also have a medium sized motor pulley that turns the barrel at 30 rpm, but if 40 will work, I guess I will leave it as is for now.

I polish brass in this barrel and it done well at 20 rpm, but I am not sure it will still do as well at the much higher rpm. I will likely have to slow it back down so that the steel needle bearings have time to empty out and refill the brass cases with each revolution. Easy enough to change the pulley back to the smaller and slower speed.



Since this picture was taken, I have placed a divider plate between the barrel and the motor to be on the safe side, because of advice from others here on this Forum. I think it is much safer to do BP now, however I have never had anything leak from the barrel, not even liquids.

[HighUintas]

HighUintas;
I looked at your pictures and if what I saw was correct, it looked to me like your aluminum plate was bridged across the 'I'-beams of your press? If so, I would say the aluminum is deflecting, and letting the powder ooze out. Try putting a steel plate across the beams and set the aluminum on it. I would think that would stop the deflection and probably stop the aluminum from tearing, as well.
If your steel plates that came with the press are painted, you should be able to sand them off and maintain a flat edge, with an angle grinder and sanding disk. Or, if you don't have one, just remove the paint with paint remover. If it is powder coat, that may not work.
When I was young in the boonies of Wyoming, I could run all day, with a rifle and my dog. Today, just hearing you guys talk about running makes me hurt.
One more thing, how did you increase the speed of your HF tumbler that fast? With plastic tubing? And, did it cause excessive belt wear, what ever you did? I think mine is down around 40 RPM, but don't remember. And, I just counted them, awhile back.
Merry Christmas everybody! I hope the fat man in the red suit is good to you!!!!

Buck, I'm using both steel plates underneath the aluminum plate. Man if I was only using that aluminum plate, it would squash that thing right between the cross bars in a hurry.

To increase the speed, I slipped some silicone tubing I had on hand over the drive shaft and then did quite a few wraps with e tape around that. I haven't had any over heating problems or any belt problems. I opened up the heat sink cover to look at the motor and realigned the belt to where it was perfectly aligned with the drive shaft pulley to prevent wear.

[HighUintas]

Hamgunner, I don't know that I would try to tumble any good brass in there at 40 RPM. I bet if you're getting close to a cascading effect, that would probably wear your brass pretty quickly. It should be good for BP though!

[HighUintas]

Because I haven't yet had a chance to relax today, I've looked at some kanthal wire coils and spools in between tasks. I am thinking about how big I want to make my kiln.

Almar, you haven't checked the max temp your kiln can reach yet, right? And you set it up for 1500w? I am thinking I will do a similarly and put it on a 15A circuit. I was thinking about building a bigger one that would be big enough for a 10-12 inch pizza and a small kindling fire. Use the electric to get it heated up and use the kindling fire for radiative cooking of the top of the pizza.

That may be a more involved project than I want to do right now though. I just want to make some more charcoal!

I'm thinking, an 18ish gauge wire roughly 20ft long if around 0.5ohm/ft. Not sure what kind of PID I need yet. I have used them, but not in an electrical element application yet.

[Nobade]

After reading Brett Gibbons' book I have been trying out making some lower density pucks to see how that affects burn rate. I pressed some at 1.5g/cc yesterday, and granulated them to rifle size - pass a 12 and hold on a 20. I set my BP measure to 100 grains, and it weighed around 85. Today I tumbled the granulated powder by itself for 8 hours, re-screened it to get out any dust, and weighed it again. This time it weighs 92 grains. It also flows through the measure better, and looks like more of a gray color instead of so dark black. I had never tumbled powder before, so this was an interesting result. I have the 3f size going in there now, curious to see how that does in the morning.

[ChrisPer]

Merry Christmas all!

[DoubleBuck]

[QUOTE=HighUintas;5322709]Buck, I'm using both steel plates underneath the aluminum plate. Man if I was only using that aluminum plate, it would squash that thing right between the cross bars in a hurry.

HighUintas, I didn't mean to make that sound like you were clueless. You said you were afraid to get paint off the backing plates, in your powder and were using an aluminum pan or whatever and from the second picture I thought maybe that was close to all you needed. If that pan is backed with the plates pictured, I can't see why it would deform like that, unless it is really soft, but it looks like the soft would help it to seal even better. Unless the die piston is not square with the backing plates, the backing plates flexing, or the die itself not square.
You might try pressing one puck just on the plates and see if it still oozes powder out. Even a tin can lid would protect your powder from the paint and would show a dent if the piston is not square. Or get a 1/2 inch by three bar stock of aluminum, and see if it still deforms like that. Bottom line is I don't use an aluminum backing plate, and I've never had that problem, and basically don't have a proper answer for you and may be wasting your time. LOL But, I will wish you good luck and Merry Christmas again! It's 65° here, at 3:00 AM The fat man ain't on no sleigh tonight, here! I did see a really high speed rock buggy come by on the dirt road a few minutes ago....

[Vettepilot]

MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL!! It's a pleasure to be part of this excellent group! What will we discover/invent/accomplish next year??

Have fun! Be safe!

Vettepilot

[Eddie2002]

Merry Christmas everybody, been away from the thread for two weeks or so while getting my 21 foot center console boat together after being in storage for about three years. Still planning on cooking up some brown Carolina Willow charcoal for my next batch.

Wonder if I can mount my .54 caliber BP ship's cannon on her front bow deck for some fun.