My homemade black powder

[Vettepilot]

Ha!! You sound like me Indian Joe. Yep. I too make many, (most?) of my own tools, and derive great pleasure from doing so. Not only in the money saved, but also from the feeling of accomplishment and self-satisfaction! I learned to cut/weld/fabricate when I was 10 years old--> I highly recommend that to anyone. I didn't learn machining 'till I was nearly 50, but that's a super useful skill to have as well.

And these technical skills are becoming even more important in today's crazy, crazy world... Teach your sons and daughters, or sign them up for classes. They'll use what's learned all their lives!!

Vettepilot

[Trapper-Jack]

I need to thank all of you for the chatter and discussion you've done. Early this spring I made my first batch of screened powder. It was the 75-15-10% formula with the charcoal made with the cedar pet bedding. Upon the first try it was very weak. I was not impressed. I decided that maybe it wasn't quite dry enough so it went into a tote with a glass covering for another week. I emptied the tote into a powder bottle but didn't get back to testing again. Summer work and chores took over and the powder got put on back burner for a while. Yesterday I was checking the zero on my Lyman flintlock prior to deer hunting. I remembered the screened powder and took the opportunity to try it again. My hunting load is 80 grains of Goex 2F. Based on the talk here the measured volume being about 60% of the weight. I bumped the powder measure to 120 grains. The result was a pleasant surprise and what I consider a success. The 120 grains seemed to have a little more recoil and noise than the 80 grains but the point of impact was right in there with the Goex. I'm going to experiment with the charcoal and maintain more control over the temperature and play around with the percentages of the charcoal and potassium nitrate. The homemade stuff seems to be a little dirtier than the Goex but the fouling is soft so a spit patch wipes it right out. Thank you guys for all your experiments for me to learn from.

[almar]

I spent quite some time compiling and observing data to see what affects powder. This process is still developing for me and will be quite some time before I call the R&D quits because there are many ideas still brewing. Since I controlled the charcoal burn temperature and realized that density messed around a lot with my results I gained a wider range of options to customize powder for different things.

A very dense powder grains consume themselves at a slower rate than a moderate density grain of the same size. So if you are aiming for 3F but make it very dense, you might be getting 2F or even 1F.

A denser powder will produce more energy per volume and therefore more power at max capacity but will be less efficient and some less dense powders can beat it in short barrels.

I put the results below for your viewing these results were all with a 7.5 inch SAA and all with the same 250 grain bullet from Accurate molds.









I noticed that I needed to add a wad for added compression on that 76.5 /13.5/10 powder, or the graph would be seriously weird. The swiss needed a wad because there would be airspace at those lower volumes. I have another batch milling now and will aim for 1.6, this batch was made with a charcoal cooked at 540 deg. Lighter in color and smelled very sweet like. This powder was made with willow that was like Styrofoam before cooking and very white.

Compression sure plays an important role in all this but my focus is on the "input" vs "output" or the amount of powder invested to produce a given amount of energy output. I think that the more efficient the better especially since i'm aiming for a max of 850 feet per second in this platform.

[MisterStyx]

The main primer recipe touted on aardvarkreloadin includes sodium hypo phosphate, which is a controlled substance, but there are many other non corrosive recipes that those guys use.

They have a very active mewe chat. Check it out if you'd like.

[DoubleBuck]

AlMar;
There is a LOT of information in your post. I have a couple of questions.
Not to sound as ignorant as I am, how is efficiency figured? Or what determines it? Is that the Feet/Second/grain of charge?
In your 1.65 density powder, it scored your fastest speed, but was also '76/10/13'. Did the density vary the speed that much, or did the recipe? Or both? Or do you know? haha
I like the numbers across the board on your 1.55 powder. It looks really balanced to me. High speed, high efficiency, high power.
You're in the middle of this stuff man and I'm lovin' it. Congratulations on the great work!

[almar]

Hey DB! Glad you like it. I know there is a lot there and there is both density and composition that vary. I should have just made it one variable but this is just a global view for now. I have seen a big difference with velocities from one puck to another just by pressing them differently. The ideal ratio is a tougher nut to crack and may have more to do with the fouling left behind. I got similar velocities with 78-12-10 as 76-14-10 when using the same density.

In an open burn, the 76 ratio burns clean and fast but the 78 does not, it may be quite different when the powder burns under compression. Swiss report using the 78 ratio but their powder burns clean without residue in an open burn. I think I will settle on the clean open burn for now with 76-14-10 and see about it later on.

This is purely academic in order to learn a few things about powder, I could easily settle on either one of these powders and deal with its ups and downs but I like to learn. The “efficiency” is just the velocity/grain to give an idea of how the powder performs, kind of like a MPG reading for a car. One thing you can take from all this is to try to make the density as even as possible by distributing the moisture content evenly and being consistent from puck to puck with the compression.

In my case, since I want to be around 850-870 fps or so in this 7.5 inch barrel platform and therefore don’t have to deal with volume or max velocities, I will settle for a less dense powder. Moisture content before pressing can also affect the powder with how hard the grains become and therefore reduce the “dustiness”. That another thing to play around with…

[mmb617]

Let me preface my remarks by saying that I know this is no valid scientific comparison of charcoals, it's just me chewing the fat about what I've done because it was interesting to me.

All the powder I've made previously was using charcoal I cooked in my little homemade retort with cedar fence pickets I get at the local Home Depot. I've been satisfied with the results but have read multiple times that the best charcoal is made with willow. I don't know enough about trees to identify a willow if I saw one, which is why I started with the cedar in the first place. However while talking to my neighbor who has been shooting black powder for a long time, he mentioned that he once thought about making his own powder but never followed through with the idea. He had some supposedly willow charcoal that he'd acquired about 30 years ago and he gave it to me, so I figured I'd make a batch of powder using that and see how well it worked.

The first thing I noticed was that this stuff was way harder than the cedar charcoal I'd been using. I can usually break the cedar stuff up small enough to go in the ball mill using just my hands, but I needed a hammer for the willow. And while the ball mill normally grinds the cedar to dust in a couple hours even after 8 hours the willow still had a few chunks that didn't grind up. I screened the chunks out and proceeded to measure out ingredients. That's when I noticed that even the dust willow charcoal was a lot denser than the cedar as 30 grams of it filled a cup much less full.

I pressed and dried the powder the same as always and when I broke it up I again noticed that the pucks were harder than those made with cedar.

Yesterday I took my new powder to the range and shot it out of the same gun that I've used the most since I started making my own powder. I didn't chrono any shots but it felt like it had about the same power and the accuracy was also fairly comparable with one note. That note being that it was definitely slower than the cedar I'd been using, thus requiring me to pay extra attention to staying on target a little longer after the trigger pull. I took 20 shots and every one had a noticeable delay. I was using the willow for both the main charge and in the pan and wasn't sure exactly where the delay was, so I took a few shots with willow as main charge but my cedar powder in the pan. The delay was still there so I think the main charge was just a tad slow.

There's no doubt in my mind that this willow charcoal based powder was slower than my cedar charcoal based powder, but exactly why I can't say. It's possible that the long storage of that charcoal had an effect on it's usefulness for powder making, I don't know how it was cooked, and for that matter I can't say absolutely for sure that it was willow charcoal.

So I didn't learn anything real useful other than that I'm not going to bother with the rest of that particular box of charcoal, but at least it added a little interest to my range trip.

[Vettepilot]

I spent quite some time compiling and observing data to see what affects powder. This process is still developing for me and will be quite some time before I call the R&D quits because there are many ideas still brewing. Since I controlled the charcoal burn temperature and realized that density messed around a lot with my results I gained a wider range of options to customize powder for different things.

A very dense powder grains consume themselves at a slower rate than a moderate density grain of the same size. So if you are aiming for 3F but make it very dense, you might be getting 2F or even 1F.

A denser powder will produce more energy per volume and therefore more power at max capacity but will be less efficient and some less dense powders can beat it in short barrels.

I put the results below for your viewing these results were all with a 7.5 inch SAA and all with the same 250 grain bullet from Accurate molds.









I noticed that I needed to add a wad for added compression on that 76.5 /13.5/10 powder, or the graph would be seriously weird. The swiss needed a wad because there would be airspace at those lower volumes. I have another batch milling now and will aim for 1.6, this batch was made with a charcoal cooked at 540 deg. Lighter in color and smelled very sweet like. This powder was made with willow that was like Styrofoam before cooking and very white.

Compression sure plays an important role in all this but my focus is on the "input" vs "output" or the amount of powder invested to produce a given amount of energy output. I think that the more efficient the better especially since i'm aiming for a max of 850 feet per second in this platform.

Wait... is it the charcoal and KNO3 that you are varying and keeping the sulphur always constant at 10%?? You've stated your recipes in a format that makes that unclear.

And yep! Your data processing proves you're an engineer!! Nice work!

Thanks,
Vettepilot

[almar]

Hey Vette yes i only vary the KNO3 and charcoal. They are in percentages not "parts" so the segments should all add up to 100%. The 78/10/13 should be 78/10/12 thats a typo.

[DoubleBuck]

mmb617;
Even though you didn't 'learn anything real useful', you got some information you can apply. Like the hardness of the grains of your charcoal. Those cedar pickets are light, airy and not very dense. As you saw, that translated to light and less dense charcoal. Which translated to light and less dense powder. Even though you can adjust overall density with a press, the charcoal itself not so much. You can cook it less, making it more dense, or overcook it, making it less dense, but more worthless. Cooked evenly and correctly, those grains of charcoal will still vary, from wood to wood and sometimes by location. One thing you might check, is the ash content of that unknown charcoal. You can compare it's content to the Cedar you have. It might be wise to not accept any charcoal of higher ash content, than what you know works for you. That, at least, will give you a standard to go by.
Finding particular trees can be a great p.i.a., if you aren't familiar with them. There are so many willows and they grow in so many regions, you might ask someone familiar with trees to help you find some. I have made powder with three different willows, but Black Willow seemed to be my best. Ask a few people and you will run into someone who has or knows exactly what you are looking for. You can go to a local nursery and they can probably show you a willow and provide you a lot of information. Good luck with your powder making and keep us informed of your successes (and failures)!

[almar]

I need to thank all of you for the chatter and discussion you've done. Early this spring I made my first batch of screened powder. It was the 75-15-10% formula with the charcoal made with the cedar pet bedding. Upon the first try it was very weak. I was not impressed. I decided that maybe it wasn't quite dry enough so it went into a tote with a glass covering for another week. I emptied the tote into a powder bottle but didn't get back to testing again. Summer work and chores took over and the powder got put on back burner for a while. Yesterday I was checking the zero on my Lyman flintlock prior to deer hunting. I remembered the screened powder and took the opportunity to try it again. My hunting load is 80 grains of Goex 2F. Based on the talk here the measured volume being about 60% of the weight. I bumped the powder measure to 120 grains. The result was a pleasant surprise and what I consider a success. The 120 grains seemed to have a little more recoil and noise than the 80 grains but the point of impact was right in there with the Goex. I'm going to experiment with the charcoal and maintain more control over the temperature and play around with the percentages of the charcoal and potassium nitrate. The homemade stuff seems to be a little dirtier than the Goex but the fouling is soft so a spit patch wipes it right out. Thank you guys for all your experiments for me to learn from.

keep it up if you like and continue developing the powder, It great when you can be self reliant.

[almar]

mmb617;
Even though you didn't 'learn anything real useful', you got some information you can apply. Like the hardness of the grains of your charcoal. Those cedar pickets are light, airy and not very dense. As you saw, that translated to light and less dense charcoal. Which translated to light and less dense powder. Even though you can adjust overall density with a press, the charcoal itself not so much. You can cook it less, making it more dense, or overcook it, making it less dense, but more worthless. Cooked evenly and correctly, those grains of charcoal will still vary, from wood to wood and sometimes by location. One thing you might check, is the ash content of that unknown charcoal. You can compare it's content to the Cedar you have. It might be wise to not accept any charcoal of higher ash content, than what you know works for you. That, at least, will give you a standard to go by.
Finding particular trees can be a great p.i.a., if you aren't familiar with them. There are so many willows and they grow in so many regions, you might ask someone familiar with trees to help you find some. I have made powder with three different willows, but Black Willow seemed to be my best. Ask a few people and you will run into someone who has or knows exactly what you are looking for. You can go to a local nursery and they can probably show you a willow and provide you a lot of information. Good luck with your powder making and keep us informed of your successes (and failures)!

I cannot confirm yet from tested data, but even wood from the same tree can be different from what I witnessed from my own willow. Some of the willow is almost like Styrofoam light and soft and other parts of that same branch is hard and denser. From what I read about willow is that they used only "fast growth" sections no more than 10 years old and no knots or imperfections. I imagine one could cut larger sections and only use the outer debarked portions and avoid the hearts. I am scanning the willow on my land for parts I will cut in the spring.

[indian joe]

I cannot confirm yet from tested data, but even wood from the same tree can be different from what I witnessed from my own willow. Some of the willow is almost like Styrofoam light and soft and other parts of that same branch is hard and denser. From what I read about willow is that they used only "fast growth" sections no more than 10 years old and no knots or imperfections. I imagine one could cut larger sections and only use the outer debarked portions and avoid the hearts. I am scanning the willow on my land for parts I will cut in the spring.

I'm using willow thats been down a while (two , three years or more) but I only use sound wood - dunno what happens it but that light soft styrofoam stuff gets thrown out - looks like some kind of dry rot / fungal degeneration - easy enough to spot when you're cutting/splitting it. Throw it away - we going to too much trouble to use obviously punky wood I reckon.

[almar]

I know what you mean with the punky wood, not that. This wood not affected by rot its just lighter but breaks like a match stick, I wish I could take a picture that would show you. Its not as soft as the rotten wood but its softer than the heart. Its clean, and smells clean.

Ok I pressed another powder today right at 1.6 density and it comes out weighing 27 gr for a 30 volume. Its off the charts and i wonder why. I cooked the charcoal at 540 deg, used only that light wood and milled for twice as long with a faster RPM. I designed the ball mill using the motors listed RPM but i counted only 25 revolutions in 30 seconds. I increased the motor pulley to make it reach 86 RPM. This powder shoots the same 250 gr bullet at 1014 fps with only 30 gr of powder. My fastest powder before that shot it at 970 fps with the same weight of charge but less density and finer particles. Volume in the case was 33 grains. I think that the ball mill modification might have done it. Im not too keen on abusing my SAA with these charges though. The 1873 Winchester with a 20 inch barrel gave 1208 fps.

[DoubleBuck]

AlMar;
I know what you mean about that really light wood. With all the damage we had from the tornado a couple of years ago, I've got all kinds of different dead wood on my place. That Sassafras I sent you was standing dead and was very light, but starting to look pretty pithy. Sometimes along with that kind of wood, I'll have a few sticks that look like they are freeze dried, or something. The wood gets really white, light and burns like a match. I have some pine wood in my front yard, right now, that is like that.
I have some of the Black Willow, I gathered on a creek in central Oklahoma, that was that very light wood. It always has the bark off and looks like if left alone, eventually it will almost petrify, or something. And, weather doesn't seem to even affect it. It will lay like a dry bone, for years. It nearly always is up in the trees, dead, but up off the ground and finally a wind or something will break some off. I've thought about using that wood, to make powder out of, several times. It's like a 20 inch piece doesn't weigh a half pound.
So, how long did you mill that powder you speak of? And, how long did you cook the charcoal at 540°? AND, haha, what charge and bullet weight on the 1873, to get that 1208 fps?

[almar]

DB, it wont hurt to try it if you got it. Like joe said, i wouldn't use the crumbly stuff just the very light stuff and see if it makes a difference. I cooked it for one hour and 45 minutes, time may vary depending on the amount you cook. My milling time was 9 hours at the low speed, i then changed the pulley and milled for another 4 hours at the fast speed. The reason i milled more after the 9 hours was because it was still leaving potassium dots after burning.

The same bullet than in the SAA, 30 grains (weight) and a 250 gr bullet gave 1208fps in the 1873.

The next batch i make will be with the sassfrass, but the dry stuff. Ill make it just like this last batch.

What do you use to shoot your powder? and what bullets?

edit: doh...i just remembered, the crimp was stronger on these test bullets...that's probably it. ill try again with the crimp i normally use.

[almar]

nope the crimp didn't do anything, just shot another with my normal crimp and it was 1009fps in the SAA. same load, same bullet. now i only have one test point, i will have to do a scale test like i did with the others to see what this stuff is really like but its promising. I will also have to shoot several with the same load to check for consistency.

[Vettepilot]

6" barrel, 1000+fps with 250 grain bullet, with 30 grains BP? Wow! Just... wow!!

Now there's a problem to have...--> " My powder is too powerful for my gun!!"

@Almar. Have you read that "Like Fire and Powder" book? I finally got it in and started reading it. What do you think of his comments about KNO3? Are you purifying yours??

Also, to verify: this latest test is Black Willow, new growth wood? And at 77/13/10??

Got something to try to match, but I'll be a bit surprised if I make it!

Thanks,
Vettepilot

[almar]

Hey vette, this is a 7.5 inch barrel SAA, but yeah its up there in power. I think it has a lot to do with the milling but im not sure. This is with the light wood yes. cooked at a bit lower temperature 540 deg, i may continue to lower it to see. The goal is to get the same amount of power with less powder to have the lowest fouling possible. 1000 fps is too much for the SAA i think if you want to keep it tight for awhile, im already getting some endshake so i will have to fab another cylinder bushing at some point or shim this one.

I never got that book? how is it? I never purified my potassium...Isn't that for fertilizer grade or stump remover? I get high purity from duda diesel.

This is with 76/14/10, the higher potassium powder performed well but didn't burn well like the 76% does. so I'm going with that now.

Another thing i did a little differently this time was to add a bit more moisture before pressing, instead of 2 sprays, i went with 5 per pound. It took just a minute and only 8 tons of force to reach the mark. Each puck weighs 64 gram and ranged between 0.355 and 0.340 in thickness at 3 inches in diameter. Minimum mesh is 50 max is 30.

vette i wrote down everything in notes details i might not have shared here, if you want them i can PM them. I don't see how you can not replicate the results if you do the same things i do with the same ingredients.

[Vettepilot]

Ok, thanks! Why don't you just down-load it to 25 grains? Well, yeah, you've got to keep the testing relative. My pistol is a steel 1858 Remington. Possibly a touch stronger?

The book is pretty interesting so far. After a heck of a battle to get it at all, I ended up with two copies. PM me your address, and if they don't ask for me to return it, I'll send you one.

My KNO3 is from Duda too, but it's prilled. Did I order the wrong stuff from him??

Vettepilot