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Thread: My homemade black powder

  1. #4861
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    I never really cared about what you cast or where. I was talking to Vettepilot. He seemed concerned about the subject and he would get more input with proper title and location in the muzzle loading thread with more people watching, I was just giving him an idea.
    “It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.”
    ― Winston S. Churchill

  2. #4862
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    I had based my very rough ratio upon a 30" barrel, going down to a guesstimated 3" column of powder. I even calculated the volumes. However, on "re-think", the amount of air actually in the powder column would probably be negligible, making the actual calculation say, 27" down to nearly zero; not 3". This makes the true, actual compression ratio much higher, further proving the possibility of the concept.

    Thanks Indian Joe. And you as well, Almar!

    Vettepilot
    Last edited by Vettepilot; 11-15-2021 at 04:20 PM.
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  3. #4863
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    Where did you guys get this book?? "Like Fire and Powder: Black Powder for the Modern Shooter"

    I've ordered the dam thing twice from Amazon, and it's been lost in shipping both times!! AARRGGHH... talked to Amazon; no answers regarding how, why, nor what to do beyond requesting yet another refund.

    Quite curiously, I find NO mention of the book outside of Amazon anywhere on the web, other than Amazon. What's up with that? If I had to guess, I wouldn't say someone at Amazon wrote/published/is selling it out the back door...

    ???

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  4. #4864
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    Quote Originally Posted by almar View Post
    I never really cared about what you cast or where. I was talking to Vettepilot. He seemed concerned about the subject and he would get more input with proper title and location in the muzzle loading thread with more people watching, I was just giving him an idea.
    thats ok but sounded a lot like you were tellin us to take this discussion someplace else ? I figure there is plenty of wiggle room here - the powder making thing has been done and dusted since about page 75 really - a bit of useful stuff over the last couple months (yours included) - my bad I dont like bein told what to do .....

  5. #4865
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    Nope, don't like that being done to me either. I can be too cut and dry most times, was worse when I was younger. No hard feelings here.
    “It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.”
    ― Winston S. Churchill

  6. #4866
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vettepilot View Post
    Where did you guys get this book?? "Like Fire and Powder: Black Powder for the Modern Shooter"

    I've ordered the dam thing twice from Amazon, and it's been lost in shipping both times!! AARRGGHH... talked to Amazon; no answers regarding how, why, nor what to do beyond requesting yet another refund.

    Quite curiously, I find NO mention of the book outside of Amazon anywhere on the web, other than Amazon. What's up with that? If I had to guess, I wouldn't say someone at Amazon wrote/published/is selling it out the back door...

    ???

    Vettepilot
    We ordered it from Amazon fulfilled by Amazon sent with 2 other items no other sellers listed. Ordered oct 29 delivered Nov 4. Shipped Nov 2 got it Nov 4. Came UPS. Yours may have been shipped (media mail) which would take longer. Hossfly.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government..... When the people fear their government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

  7. #4867
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vettepilot View Post
    Where did you guys get this book?? "Like Fire and Powder: Black Powder for the Modern Shooter"

    I've ordered the dam thing twice from Amazon, and it's been lost in shipping both times!! AARRGGHH... talked to Amazon; no answers regarding how, why, nor what to do beyond requesting yet another refund.

    Quite curiously, I find NO mention of the book outside of Amazon anywhere on the web, other than Amazon. What's up with that? If I had to guess, I wouldn't say someone at Amazon wrote/published/is selling it out the back door...

    ???

    Vettepilot
    Here's the web site from the guy who wrote it. He posts quite a bit on Facebook but I haven't seen him around here. He also has a pretty interesting Youtube channel involving shooting historic arms.
    https://www.papercartridges.com/home.html

  8. #4868
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hossfly View Post
    We ordered it from Amazon fulfilled by Amazon sent with 2 other items no other sellers listed. Ordered oct 29 delivered Nov 4. Shipped Nov 2 got it Nov 4. Came UPS. Yours may have been shipped (media mail) which would take longer. Hossfly.
    That's right around the time I ordered it the first time around. Amazon-Las Vegas supposedly sent it to USPS; they said they never received it. Waited the appropriate amount of time--> lost! Requested and received a refund. Waited a week, then re-ordered. Same exact, precise thing happened! Spent 30 minutes on the phone with very nice/helpful lady from Amazon today. No joy. No answers, no solutions. Wait some more, call and try hassling them some more was the advise finally given. Jeeezz... I'm only little more than an hour from Vegas! It would be far less grief to just go get it, and I'd probably do just that if I thought it would work! Frustrating!

    The truly puzzling part is how there is virtually nowhere online to find it outside of Amazon. No listed publisher, no other info--> absolutely nothing! Strange!

    Thanks for the hookup to the author's website. Interesting.

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  9. #4869
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    So, grading powder...

    There's a tolerance for commercial powder. 3% can get away with not passing the first, coarse screen, and it's ok if 12% does pass through the finer screen. That's the tolerance, or at least how I've read it stated in many references.

    When I grade my powder, there is no granted tolerance. If it does not pass through a given screen, it's pulled off and sorted as a different grade or re-processed. Same with the finer, "hold" screen. It either holds, or it doesn't. If it goes through the finer, hold screen, it is sorted as a different granulation, or re-processed. I'm guessing it's much the same for you guys.

    With my fffg, it's even more stringent, due to the way I do it. Grade fffg is, according to everything I've read; 3% pass 20, 12% hold 50 mesh. So theoretically at least, ya toss your powder on a 20 mesh screen with a 50 mesh screen below it. Whatever passes through the 20 mesh screen, but "stays on" the 50 mesh screen, is bona fide "FFFG" powder.

    However, when doing mine, I don't do it quite that way. What I do, is catch what my 30 mesh screen doesn't stop when doing ffg, and try it on a 50 mesh screen. What stays on the 50 screen, I call fffg. So my personal fffg powder, is actually 30--> 50 mesh powder instead of 20--> 50, and with zero tolerance besides that!

    So, my powder is just that much more consistent and better than factory, commercial powder, right??

    ;~)



    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  10. #4870
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vettepilot View Post
    So, grading powder...

    There's a tolerance for commercial powder. 3% can get away with not passing the first, coarse screen, and it's ok if 12% does pass through the finer screen. That's the tolerance, or at least how I've read it stated in many references.

    When I grade my powder, there is no granted tolerance. If it does not pass through a given screen, it's pulled off and sorted as a different grade or re-processed. Same with the finer, "hold" screen. It either holds, or it doesn't. If it goes through the finer, hold screen, it is sorted as a different granulation, or re-processed. I'm guessing it's much the same for you guys.

    With my fffg, it's even more stringent, due to the way I do it. Grade fffg is, according to everything I've read; 3% pass 20, 12% hold 50 mesh. So theoretically at least, ya toss your powder on a 20 mesh screen with a 50 mesh screen below it. Whatever passes through the 20 mesh screen, but "stays on" the 50 mesh screen, is bona fide "FFFG" powder.

    However, when doing mine, I don't do it quite that way. What I do, is catch what my 30 mesh screen doesn't stop when doing ffg, and try it on a 50 mesh screen. What stays on the 50 screen, I call fffg. So my personal fffg powder, is actually 30--> 50 mesh powder instead of 20--> 50, and with zero tolerance besides that!

    So, my powder is just that much more consistent and better than factory, commercial powder, right??

    ;~)



    Vettepilot
    of course its better ---why not?
    My process is similarly stringent as yours - different screen numbers and I dont stack the screens - shake it through em one at the time ..................

  11. #4871
    Boolit Man mmb617's Avatar
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    Interesting that we screen powder in similar but not exactly the same ways. I have a three screen stack using 20, 40, and 60 screens. What stays on top of the 20 gets reground. What passes the 20 but stays on the 40 is my 3f. If it goes through the 40 but stays on the 60 I call it 4f, and of course what goes through the 60 gets repressed.

    I tried using homemade screens with wooden frames but had a lot of spillage so I finally broke down and spent more money than I really wanted on a good set of SS screens which nest together tightly, have a pan at the bottom and a lid on top. Spillage is pretty much zero and I don't get dust in the air while shaking the stack. I look at it as the buy once cry once type thing. I also converted my vibratory tumbler I had for cleaning brass for reloading into a shaker for my screen stack and that works great.

    Since I have invested more in equipment than I thought I would I'll need to shoot a lot more pounds of powder to get my ROI back in a reasonable time frame. Which means I need to shoot more rounds more often. I don't have a problem with that. But even more importantly I don't have to worry about running out of powder and not being able to buy more.

  12. #4872
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    The cost savings is very nice, and something you'll enjoy for as long as you shoot now that you know how, and are set up to make BP.

    However, it's your very last sentence that holds the highest value to me. In todays world, this is gold:

    "I don't have to worry about running out of powder and not being able to buy more."

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  13. #4873
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    of course its better ---why not?
    My process is similarly stringent as yours - different screen numbers and I dont stack the screens - shake it through em one at the time ..................
    I don't literally stack the screens. I work one screen at a time, but with the next, finer" screen below it. Then I set the upper screen aside, and work the finer screen, which has a catchment pan below it. I screen it quite well, to allow all fines to drop out well.

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  14. #4874
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    I use to do 30 to 60 mesh for FFFg in large wood framed screens. now i go from 30 to 50 but in green amazon round screens. This may change sometime.

    If you make your own caps and bullets too you are set, i even reload my primers but i had problems with reliability back then, i changed my formulation alot though while developing my percussion caps, they may not be as unreliable now. I even made a prototype die to make cups out of .22lr brass but scrapped that because it failed (small pin hole) with high pressure loads from a 500 magnum, with the 460 rowland, the dent from the firing pin flattened out but didnt make a hole. It may not be a problem with very low pressure 45 colt BP loads though. I wont go down that road again for now, i'm good on primers for years, but its good to know the option is there in case i need it.
    “It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.”
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  15. #4875
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    I have often noticed, and wondered why, some of you here use different screens than I do. Here's the published grading chart I used to select my screens. I believe I got this one from Goex, though I've seen it quoted in numerous places:

    Grade pass screen, holding, stays on, passing
    Saluting 10 mesh. 3% 20 mesh 12%
    Fg 12 mesh. 3% 16 mesh 12%
    FFg 16 mesh 3% 30 mesh 12%
    FFFg 20 mesh 3% 50 mesh 12%
    FFFFg 40 mesh. 3% 100 mesh 12%

    I really worked on getting it to format right here, with the columns lining up and making sense. I'll push "Post Reply" now, and if it doesn't hold the formatting, I'll let you guys sort it out...

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  16. #4876
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    @Almar:

    I would Really like to be able to load my own primers, but want to make non-corrosive ones, in order to load primers for all my guns. The general argument is that it's ok to use corrosive primers for black powder guns because you're going to clean them with water anyway. Be careful that you do so well though, because home-made corrosive primers agressively cause rust--> much more so than just black powder in my experience.

    Any non-corrosive primer recipes I've found require you to cook up some of your own chemicals. Not too fond of that idea, nor of buying the lab equipment to do so...
    :~(

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  17. #4877
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    @ VP.
    Do you not think that the ORIGINAL primer caps back in the day , WERE corrosive Primers.
    It would be nice to be able to make your own Non Corrosive primers.
    But I think the rifles will hold up well if maintained properly.
    People think one round of a corrosive primed round Wrecks their rifle Instantly.
    Like a guy at the range that had a 1903 Springfield that in its history was shot with corrosive ammo and was in good condition.
    He had a total fit when he found out that the one box of ammo he was firing was corrosive primed ammo.
    He wanted to throw away the rifle , because he said that one box of ammo totally Ruined his collectors piece.

  18. #4878
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    You can forget making your own non corrosive primers. You will end up on the DEA watchlist and im not kidding i looked into it.

    You are right they are more corrosive than BP. They call them corrosive because of the salts they produce after firing (potassium chloride in my case). And they dissolve easily when cleaned. I have used them extensively in many firearms last year and early this year. When you leave it overnight (i have) the salts swell out and form a crust in the barrel so don't do that. It is what it is and like LAGS says it all they had back in the day, i wouldn't use them in my ar's unless i really had to or M1as but relvolvers and closed systems like lever or bolt actions i have no problems with. Primers are the achillies heel or our hobby. If you put them for sale out there today, i'm pretty sure they would sell out.
    “It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.”
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  19. #4879
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vettepilot View Post
    I have often noticed, and wondered why, some of you here use different screens than I do. Here's the published grading chart I used to select my screens. I believe I got this one from Goex, though I've seen it quoted in numerous places:

    Grade pass screen, holding, stays on, passing
    Saluting 10 mesh. 3% 20 mesh 12%
    Fg 12 mesh. 3% 16 mesh 12%
    FFg 16 mesh 3% 30 mesh 12%
    FFFg 20 mesh 3% 50 mesh 12%
    FFFFg 40 mesh. 3% 100 mesh 12%

    I really worked on getting it to format right here, with the columns lining up and making sense. I'll push "Post Reply" now, and if it doesn't hold the formatting, I'll let you guys sort it out...

    Vettepilot
    wondered why ? cuz I am frugal and its what I had / could find easy - first I scoured the workshop, then the junk heap, "borrowed" a couple items from the kitchen, paid actual cash money for a couple screens from the two dollar shop (misleading name most stuff way more than $2)
    had a piece of good stainless 8 mesh -
    kitchen vegie strainer is 12 mesh
    = 8 - 12 gets cannon grade - I give it to a mate or regrind it depending how hard the regrind is
    16 mesh is aluminium window screen
    = 12 - 16 is labelled Fg if its screened or Cartridge no1 if its pucks
    kitchen splatter screen is 22 mesh
    = 16 - 22 is FFg or Ctrg No 2
    had a big sheet of 40 mesh stainless from my ag spraying days
    = 22 - 40 is FFFg or Ctg no 3 - have since bought a piece of lighter weight 50 mesh so to widen the catch of FFFg a bit
    had some fine filter fabric that runs about 100mesh (buy this stuff in the homemaker store by the yard quite cheap)
    = 40 or 50 - 100 is FFFFg - get too much of that from busted pucks not much at all from screened - goes to pan powder for several flinters and give some to a mate that shoots BP in a 357 mag
    = pass the 100 mesh is reprocessed
    all the front loaders get screened because it is so much easier and productive (much easier to control grain size - way less fines to reprocess) - just need to set or cut measures to suit the lower density

    junk heap / workshop and a couple hours heavy welding got me my press and dies - had the 20 ton truck jack - had the makings of a mill from a previous project
    bought a good sealed motor for the mill, bought the ceramic coffee grinder, a few bits n pieces for screens, pvc fittings to make mill drums, I doubt I am out $200 cash in total

  20. #4880
    Boolit Master
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    Yes, I do realize that all primers were once corrosive, but thanks.

    It really bothers me just how much of an "Achilles Heal" primers really are for us. But then I tend to be foward thinking and distrustful that way...

    This town has over 55,000 people. There are several pretty good gun shops. A good many for a town this size actually. Only one of them specializes in reloading stuff, and reliably has pretty good stock. They haven't gotten one single primer shipment in for well over a year!!!

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check