My homemade black powder

[MisterStyx]

I just got a puck from woodys. While the pics on the website show a steel outer ring, as you commented, what i actually recieved is completely aluminum. Its also very nice, tho i havent yet used it. I will post pics later, if anyone is interested in seeing.

You got an aluminum sleeve? Mine is def steel. I had to clean out some rust since I didn’t oil it up between sessions.

[ChrisPer]

Today I learned that the Amazon ceramic burr coffee grinder can drop the jar of product on the concrete workshop floor to smash - if you don't pay attention to keeping it done up tight. Just 2/3 of a turn to do up - means 2/3 of a turn to disengage and drop!
Darn. Lost 135grams of very good powder, but it was contaminated with glass throughout so it had to go.

Fortunately I bought the one with a spare product jar. Now I am planning moving the burrs into a better frame with more control over depth, strong centering, and a driveshaft that I can chuck in my cordless drill. And a plastic product jar.

[maillemaker]

Yes, forget the glass jar. First of all, the last thing you want is a glass hand grenade if something goes wrong.

See my post a page or two back on how I made a 3D printed base with threads that match the glass jar so I could mount it to a frame. Makes it vastly easier than trying to hold it and grind. It's like a 1000% difference in effort.

[maillemaker]

So is making your own black powder illegal?

Someone sent me this:
https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/bl...xplosives-laws

It says:

Regardless, persons engaged in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in black powder in any quantity must have a federal explosives license, and comply with recordkeeping, storage and conduct of business requirements.

And this defines "manufacturing" as even for personal use:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/841

(h) “Manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for purposes of sale or distribution or for his own use.

Sounds to me like it is not legal under federal law to make black powder without a license, even for your own use.

Steve

[SeaMonkey]

The key word is "Business."

"Manufacturing" is a Business Activity.

Businesses are engaged in Commerce.

When in doubt determine to whom the law actually applies and in which jurisdiction.

[maillemaker]

"Manufacturing" is a Business Activity.

That's not how they define manufacturing though:

(h) “Manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for purposes of sale or distribution or for his own use.

How can you be in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for your own use if "business" means engaging in commerce?

I have contacted an attorney.

Steve

[HighUintas]

That's not how they define manufacturing though:



How can you be in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for your own use if "business" means engaging in commerce?

I have contacted an attorney.

Steve

Keep us updated on what you find out. I would think all the pyro starlighter stuff wouldn't be on the web if it was illegal. Or I would think that it would be well known it's illegal within the pyro community.

This topic was covered multiple times early on in this thread and determined legal. Maybe things have changed?

[indian joe]

I have contacted an attorney.

Steve

Dumb move !!!!!!

[maillemaker]

This topic was covered multiple times early on in this thread and determined legal. Maybe things have changed?

I know. I remember digging around all this crap back in 2018 when I started delving into it. But someone send me a PM on the N-SSA forum when I had posted my results here with a link to the ATF statement. Then I dug up their definition of "manufacturer" and found the thing about "for his own use".

Given the change of party of the Office of the President it wouldn't surprise me if someone made an edit on the web site. But anyway, I'm going to seek professional legal advice. I don't see how that is a dumb move.

Maybe my state is like Idaho.

Steve

[indian joe]

I know. I remember digging around all this crap back in 2018 when I started delving into it. But someone send me a PM on the N-SSA forum when I had posted my results here with a link to the ATF statement. Then I dug up their definition of "manufacturer" and found the thing about "for his own use".

Given the change of party of the Office of the President it wouldn't surprise me if someone made an edit on the web site. But anyway, I'm going to seek professional legal advice. I don't see how that is a dumb move.

Maybe my state is like Idaho.

Steve

I apologise if that was too blunt for ya - but put enough lawyers and bureacrats to work and walking across the street is illegal !!! - all this will do is call attention and if its not illegal some fool in an office will likely decide to tie up that particular loose end.
Stay under the radar is the best idea I reckon - dont attract attention ..........................

[maillemaker]

I simply want a professional opinion as to whether making black powder for personal use is legal or not. If you google this question, there are hundreds of internet armchair lawyers out there who tell you it's OK to have 50 pounds for personal use, yadda yadda, but when I read the federal "Orange Book" on explosives, it seems pretty clear to me that it is not:

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/...54007/download

The only wiggle room I can see is it says if you involved in the "business of" "manufacture", if business meant "commerce". But since they explicitly say "manufacture" means "for personal use" I don't see how business can mean commerce.

If this is illegal then coupled with the trouble of making it it's just not worth the risk to me to bother, and certainly not to share the results of my illegal activities on the internet anymore.

So, I have contacted an attorney who specialized in explosives in my state and I'll see what he has to say about it.

[DoubleBuck]

Here's a link to the ATF and the Question answered from the horses' mouth.

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/bl...xplosives-laws

Is black powder subject to regulation under federal explosives laws?
Black powder is an explosive material for purposes of federal explosives laws and regulations.

However, the law exempts from regulation commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not exceeding 50 pounds (as well as percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers) intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or in antique devices exempted from the term "destructive device" in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4).

Regardless, persons engaged in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in black powder in any quantity must have a federal explosives license, and comply with recordkeeping, storage and conduct of business requirements.

[18 U.S.C. 841(c), 841(d), 845(a)(5); 27 CFR 555.11: definitions of "explosives" and "explosive materials", 555.141(b)]

[henryinpanama]

"Here's a link to the ATF and the Question answered from the horses' mouth."

I think you got the wrong end of the horse.

[HighUintas]

The information I've been able to find isn't clear. It's not even completely clear on the requirements from the amateur fireworker point if view, at least not what I've been able to find. I guess I'll have to quell my enthusiasm until I get more information that I feel comfortable with.

If it is legal, that would be a bit interesting in relation to the fact that it's not federally illegal for a felon to own an antique BP flintlock or similar. Maybe the legality of a felon having possession of BP is different, even if commercially made.

Another piece of interesting info is that when reading about the ATF's definition of "antique" firearms it sounds like my Winchester/miroku 1886 45-90 that is "for black powder only" falls under that category. They say that reproductions of actual antiques are also antiques. I'd like more clarification on that. Pretty interesting...

[maillemaker]

Here's a link to the ATF and the Question answered from the horses' mouth.

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/bl...xplosives-laws

Is black powder subject to regulation under federal explosives laws?
Black powder is an explosive material for purposes of federal explosives laws and regulations.

However, the law exempts from regulation commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not exceeding 50 pounds (as well as percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers) intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or in antique devices exempted from the term "destructive device" in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4).

Regardless, persons engaged in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in black powder in any quantity must have a federal explosives license, and comply with recordkeeping, storage and conduct of business requirements.

[18 U.S.C. 841(c), 841(d), 845(a)(5); 27 CFR 555.11: definitions of "explosives" and "explosive materials", 555.141(b)]

I cited this above.

Here is the important part that people are overlooking:

However, the law exempts from regulation commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not exceeding 50 pounds (as well as percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers) intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or in antique devices exempted from the term "destructive device" in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4).

Only commercially manufactured black powder are you allowed to store in quantities of 50 pounds or less.

Regardless, persons engaged in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in black powder in any quantity must have a federal explosives license, and comply with recordkeeping, storage and conduct of business requirements.

If you are engaged in the business of manufacturing black powder, you need a license. What does manufacturing mean? The ATF says:

(h) “Manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for purposes of sale or distribution or for his own use.

Now, there is some room for debate as to what it means to be "engaged in the business" as the ATF does not define "business". When I hear "business", I think "commerce". But I don't know how you'd be involved in commerce with yourself. So I don't think that is what they mean.

Maybe i just need to get one of those federal explosives licenses. How hard can it be?

It's $200 for 3 years and then renewable for $100 after that. But, they are going to send agents out to your place of "manufacturing" to make sure you are complying with local zoning laws and storage requirements. If you live in a neighborhood, you can pretty much forget about it. Even if you don't, you're going to need a magazine of the correct type.

Ok, so check this out.
Specifically look at subsection 845 on "Exceptions; relief from disabilities"

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/t...t-I/chapter-40


Exception number 4 lists "small arms ammunition and components thereof"

Im not a lawyer but this exception from regulation seems very clearly and directly applicable to our usage.

They explicitly exclude black powder as ammunition. They define ammunition as:

Ammunition.
Small arms ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or smokeless propellants designed for use in small arms, including percussion caps, and 3/32 inch and other external burning pyrotechnic hobby fuses. The term does not include black powder.

[Vettepilot]

You guys are scaring the crap outta me.

Regardless, your lawyer friend is going to cover his butt and say "Don't do it!!"

Wonder what the pyro supply companies like Skylighter have to say??

Vettepilot

[Agent1187]

So the FAQ page from the ATF at:
https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/wh...cense-required
clarifies that the "personal use" requirement to be licensed is an extension of personal business use.

They clarify that people can manufacture explosives for their own use without a license. However, they do state that these explosives CAN'T be transported without a permit.

So keep it on your property, and the world is your burrito!

[HighUintas]

You guys are scaring the crap outta me.

Regardless, your lawyer friend is going to cover his butt and say "Don't do it!!"

Wonder what the pyro supply companies like Skylighter have to say??

Vettepilot

So the FAQ page from the ATF at:
https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/wh...cense-required
clarifies that the "personal use" requirement to be licensed is an extension of personal business use.

They clarify that people can manufacture explosives for their own use without a license. However, they do state that these explosives CAN'T be transported without a permit.

So keep it on your property, and the world is your burrito!

That is the same information that I found when looking at some information on the skylighter blog. It sounded like it is legal to make your own black powder without a license, but you cannot transport it anywhere off of your property. In order to transport it anywhere, you have to have a certain type of federal license. There was also something mentioned about an ATF agent at a pyro conference answering the question and saying that you had to have a license in order to be able to store it on your property and have to have the correct type 4 storage. The agent said you can make it, but you have to use it in the same day if you don't have the license. All of that is coming from the fireworks side of things, so it's hard to say if that would be applicable to use in firearms. it's also hard to say how much of that is correct. But, I think that it is probably legal to make your own black powder based on that blog post on skylighter due to there being a large user base, clubs, associations, etc that are all amateur fireworkers.

[maillemaker]

So the FAQ page from the ATF at:
https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/wh...cense-required
clarifies that the "personal use" requirement to be licensed is an extension of personal business use.

They clarify that people can manufacture explosives for their own use without a license. However, they do state that these explosives CAN'T be transported without a permit.

So keep it on your property, and the world is your burrito!

This is fantastic. It specifically says:

"Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use are not required to have a manufacturer’s license. "

Can you please tell me where exactly you found that definition of ammunition?

Im looking at Title 18, chapter 40 §841, which is the "Definitions" section of the entirety of federal explosives laws. Its not there.

Here:

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/...54007/download

Note: This document is dated 2012. The above link is dated 2018. It's possible the PDF is obsolete.

But definitions start on page 13.

There is a clear exemption for ammunition explicitly stated in the law; in both title 18 chapters 40 and 44.

The above 2012 PDF definition of ammunition explicitly excludes black powder.

I'm going to have to go look at Title 18 and see if I can find the most current information.

Steve

[maillemaker]

So the FAQ page from the ATF at:
https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/wh...cense-required
clarifies that the "personal use" requirement to be licensed is an extension of personal business use.

They clarify that people can manufacture explosives for their own use without a license. However, they do state that these explosives CAN'T be transported without a permit.

So keep it on your property, and the world is your burrito!

The problem here is the URL provided does not give any citation to support the assertion that you don't need a license for personal use.

I'm going through 18 US Code 841 and I don't see any exceptions for personal use. In fact it explicitly says you are a manufacturer if you make it for your personal use and as such you need a license.

Here is the law. I don't know how to tell if it is current or not.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/t...t-I/chapter-40

Edit: They say:

The US Code as published is current through Pub. L. 116-193, which was published by the Office of the Law Revision Counsel on 2020-11-10