My homemade black powder

[HamGunner]

A chrono tip to pass on: I use a laser bore sighter and a piece of paper or cardboard when setting up my chrono to see where the shot will pass through. Put a flag on the trigger (or somewhere) that says "REMOVE LASER BEFORE SHOOTING-!!!"
Vettepilot

I had to laugh at this line. A laser bore sighter it a great idea and would have saved me some money and embarrassment.

I was working up a load with my Mini-14 back when Chrony first came out with their chronographs and I had an early one that had cardboard cutouts that you had to shoot through. No problem, just not much room to shoot through.

Of course, I got interrupted in my load development and it was like a month or more before I got a chance to go back and finish with my next step in that load work up and I had changed to another scope. YEP!!! forgot that I had not sighted the new scope in. Barely nicked the top of the electronic sensor, but it hit hard enough to crack and ruin the read out screen which sat right in the front of that model of Crony. On top of that, I had a laser bore sighter at home.

Chrony gives you around $25 off the price of a new one if you mail in your old one. I got a much newer model that had a remote read out screen and it was sensitive enough to read a bullet a bit higher off the sensors. Still too sensitive to extra bright skies or very cloudy skies. But I do like having a Chronograph. I just normally shoot a few rounds with one of my handguns to see if it is reading okay before I run any test loads through it.

[Vettepilot]

Ha! Good story. I guess there's two shooters; those that have shot their chronos, and those that are gonna some day... (Luckily so far, I'm in the latter category.)

What gets many people is not realizing how far the bore is below the sight line in each case. We tend to think that if we can't see the chrony in the sights; we won't hit it!! But really guys, using a laser bore sighter to line things up is great, but it could be disastrous if you forgot and left it in place...

Man, if anyone has any idea on this milling jar clumping, I'd love to hear them!

Vettepilot

[DoubleBuck]

HamGunner;
How do you like that Mini 14? I've only ever shot one, one time. Back in about 1978, a Tool Pusher on a drilling rig I worked on broke one out with me one day and we tore the mud pits up, shooting beer cans and bottles and anything that floated on mud. I said I would have me one, but never have followed through.

VettePilot, I've never had the clumping problem, till this batch over the last week. I actually had a humidity problem one time, that caused clumping, but I heated the powder dry and no more problem.
I understand AlMar, what he says about a good mill. I agree, that mine may never do the job that his or any good mill will, in a short period of time. I'm good with that, but have not had the particular problem, and it has drove me crazy. I made 8 twenty gram batches, so they were very small, but they all clumped, and I think that was my biggest problem. I say so, because I took finished powder (that I greatly wished I had tested first) and remanufactured it, because of the fines test, when I knew the fines test was not a good comparison. But, when I went to match his test to mine, the fines burned TOTALLY different, and much better. But, when I put the good powder back in the mill, it immediately (less than 20 minutes) clumped again. By the way, I think that powder was perfectly good, but it got milled and repucked and rescreened, and all of it. So, there is no excuse to me, for it not to be up to snuff. And I think it will be.
I'm going to very soon make another pound batch with a change of media and a speeded up Harbor Freight mill. I have bought some clear plastic tubing of two larger sizes, to gain RPM's with it. If the media change and higher speed and a ten times larger batch still clumps, I may be retooling. If I had experienced the clumping before, it wouldn't bother so bad, but this is not the time to have problems, when I'm really trying to get a good solid test in. And, to help AlMar prove his powder. Which really needs no proof. It's good stuff, Maynard.

[HamGunner]

HamGunner;
How do you like that Mini 14? I've only ever shot one, one time. Back in about 1978, a Tool Pusher on a drilling rig I worked on broke one out with me one day and we tore the mud pits up, shooting beer cans and bottles and anything that floated on mud. I said I would have me one, but never have followed through.

I bought my Mini-14 in probably the early 90's if I remember right. I know I was working up my first loads for it with some fresh LC-90 brass. And I guess that time period was when I shot my early model Chrony. I was in law enforcement and the carbine was a stainless steel law enforcement model with a bayonet lug, and flash suppressor. The barrel was very thin and had a 1 in 7" twist chambered for 5.56x45 NATO. Could have gotten a metal folding stock, but I preferred and ordered the regular wooden stock model.

At the time, Sierra 69 gr. Match was about the longest bullet that I could get and it stabilized that bullet decently enough. Shorter bullets were not as accurate, but then the skinny carbine barrel was not a real tack driver anyway as it would heat up in a hurry. I think I remember that 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards were about it's best. If I really worked with the brass and load I could squeeze out 1 3/4" every now and then. When Sierra came out with their 77 gr. Match bullet, I worked that one up and it shot really good, but still not what one would call a tack driving load.

But they are tough. They never miss a lick and cycle without a hitch. I can probably count on one hand the number of times that it ever failed to chamber a round. Not real tack drivers, but very dependable. I think Ruger eventually came out with a model that had a slightly longer and heavier barrel that was supposed to be a much more accurate rifle, but for what they are normally needed for, the Ruger Mini-14 works really well. A handy and well made carbine that will go POP every time you pull the trigger.

[HWooldridge]

I bought my Mini-14 in probably the early 90's if I remember right. I know I was working up my first loads for it with some fresh LC-90 brass. And I guess that time period was when I shot my early model Chrony. I was in law enforcement and the carbine was a stainless steel law enforcement model with a bayonet lug, and flash suppressor. The barrel was very thin and had a 1 in 7" twist chambered for 5.56x45 NATO. Could have gotten a metal folding stock, but I preferred and ordered the regular wooden stock model.

At the time, Sierra 69 gr. Match was about the longest bullet that I could get and it stabilized that bullet decently enough. Shorter bullets were not as accurate, but then the skinny carbine barrel was not a real tack driver anyway as it would heat up in a hurry. I think I remember that 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards were about it's best. If I really worked with the brass and load I could squeeze out 1 3/4" every now and then. When Sierra came out with their 77 gr. Match bullet, I worked that one up and it shot really good, but still not what one would call a tack driving load.

But they are tough. They never miss a lick and cycle without a hitch. I can probably count on one hand the number of times that it ever failed to chamber a round. Not real tack drivers, but very dependable. I think Ruger eventually came out with a model that had a slightly longer and heavier barrel that was supposed to be a much more accurate rifle, but for what they are normally needed for, the Ruger Mini-14 works really well. A handy and well made carbine that will go POP every time you pull the trigger.

My son has one and our experience mirrors yours to the letter. Not extremely accurate but it always goes bang and you can throw it in the truck and take it anywhere - we call it the American AK-47...

[mmb617]

The biggest problem with my Caldwell chronograph is that it needs just the right amount of sunlight to work. But, they sell LED screens that make it an all-weather device.

I found that my Caldwell chronograph worked well on overcast days but on sunny or partly sunny days if direct sunlight hit one of both sensors it didn't work. The plastic sunshields that come with it often didn't keep that from happening and they aren't adjustable. What I did was make a screen out of a piece of scrimcloth and attached it above the factory sunshields by stringing a piece of wire between the front and rear factory shields. I used a velcro attachment so I could either hang the scrimcloth over the top (and extending beyond the factory shields), or hang it over the side depending on the angle of the incoming sunlight. It works quite well.

This picture explains it better I think. The day I took the above picture it was early in the morning and the sun was at a low angle so I hung the screen over the side. That did the trick.

A chrono tip to pass on: I use a laser bore sighter and a piece of paper or cardboard when setting up my chrono to see where the shot will pass through. Put a flag on the trigger (or somewhere) that says "REMOVE LASER BEFORE SHOOTING-!!!"

EDIT TO ADD: The chrono "failure" was all shooting 223 and 55gr bullet, which with such a small and fast bullet is worst case scenario, especially with the poor light that day.

I guess I set up my chrono different from most folks. I set it up directly in front of the target so that all I have to do is take a shot without the chrono in place to make sure where I'm hitting, then move the chrono in front of the target and there's no reason the rest of my shots shouldn't hit at about the same place since I'm shooting from a rest at about 5 yards. I'm not saying I'll never hit the chono but it would take a real brain fart to do so.

Actually the day I took this picture I was shooting my AR .223 with 55 gr bullets and they all registered for me.

I wasn't sure if I would have a problem with muzzleblast or patches causing bad readings with the flinters but they seemed to read well at that same range.


This picture is from some black powder shots. On that day I needed to set my sunscreen differently to shade both the left side and part of the top. As long as I keep direct sunlight off the sensors the chrono works.

[maillemaker]

Most people put the chrono relatively close to their muzzle so as to detect muzzle velocity, rather than downrange velocity. But it is true that with BP guns they may not respond well up close with the smoke and/or patches, etc.

I had a sad today. I went to retrieve my latest 100 gram batch of green meal only to discover somehow the lid had popped off and all my media and green meal was lost in the grass.

I'm now washing the media and drum (tumbling with hot soapy water) and when dry will renew my production. I try to make 200 grams of green meal a day.
Steve

[Vettepilot]

I like that "adjustable" sun shield with Velcro. Thanks!

To all using the Harbor Freight mini mill: please be careful. They are overloaded when weighted down with enough media to properly mill BP, plus the motors are notoriously weak anyway. If you modify them to go faster, that's loading the motor down even more!! I strongly advise against it, unless you upgrade the motor.

I found this all out the hard way. I had made several batches of powder with mine, shorting the media to 1/4 jar, and it worked ok. Then I decided to go with a half jar of media, like is recommended. I closely monitored it for a while and it was fine, so I left it to do it's thing. I checked on it an hour later, and the motor had stalled, and it was so hot it was smoking!! These motors do not have thermal shutoff protection, and in most cases don't draw enough power to trip a circuit breaker, even when completely stalled. All in all, a very unsafe deal.

While searching for a replacement motor, I found many, many complaints by people that had the same problem with this mill. Mine is permanently retired from BP duty!! I will find a better motor for it someday, but even so, don't think I'll use it for BP anymore. That's too bad really, as it's kinda handy for small test batches, but one catching fire could be a crappy day!

Vettepilot

[HamGunner]

Back to clumping. I ran across this from an old thread. https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-making-thread Interesting as that has been my thoughts on clumping.

" 04-13-2014, 12:09 PM #27
PhilS
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Boolit Mold

Join Date
Jun 2012
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Indiana
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7

Just thinking out loud here.....

Once a component is as fine as it can get, it will start to clump. As long as everything starts out dry this is one way to tell when you're done. If you put pre-milled product in a mill, I would think there would be a pretty good chance of it clumping before its fully blended.

My mill uses 2 of the hex barrels from Thumbler turning at 67 RPM and I get finished powder in about 1-2 hours."

[HamGunner]

Also this one.

" 04-10-2014, 01:30 PM #21
PhilS
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Boolit Mold

Join Date
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Indiana
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Nope, sulfur is insoluble as is the charcoal. The only component of BP that is soluble is the nitrate. That's why people that add bunches of water wind up with weak powder. They either wash away the nitrate or it re-crystalizes when everything dries and they wind up with an "unmixed" powder.

I would think that to check the PH of sulfur, your slurry idea would work as long as you know the PH of the water first.

You shouldn't need to mill the sulfur. Most of us on the dark side simply mill everything together so we get the most homogenous mix. I'm going to assume you're familiar with the proper media to use in your mill.The key to avoiding caking is to dry everything separately first. An oven or roaster works fine but electric skillets do not heat evenly. Surprisingly, charcoal seems to cause the biggest problem. Once dry, you can mill everything with less chance of clumping. If you use dry chemicals, clumping is typically an indication that you've milled the BP long enough."

[Vettepilot]

Interesting Hamgunner. Thanks!

Note that any link you wanted to put in your second post didn't show.

And I do mill each component quite fine with a coffee grinder first. I've never dried each component, because there wasn't a need in this desert environ, but I will try that as well. The clumping truly is aggravating...

Vettepilot

[HamGunner]

My second post is referenced in the same thread as the first link only six posts earlier.

Well, after reading up a bit more in various locations and revisiting some of the referenced older English studies, I got the itch again to make some more BP. I weighed out my already made up left over charcoal that I had sealed up and I had enough to make 1 1/2 lbs of BP. It will be about 50/50 Black Willow/Sassafras.

Not really going to change things much, but will heat up my Potassium Nitrate in the oven after grinding and screening, to possibly drive off any excess moisture. And I guess I will do the sulfur and charcoal as well. My Potassium Nitrate is stored in PRILL form so it should not be overly moist, but like it was when it came from the manufacturer. But if any of my ingredients contain much moisture, it would be the Potassium Nitrate I would think.

Will leave my Thumblers Tumbler type hexagon 15 lb. mill set at 40 rpm for now as I have not located a larger drive pulley for the motor yet. Will be interesting to see if drying the ingredients will alter the clumping.

[HighUintas]

I never had a problem with clumping when I was using my kid's thumler 3lb hex barrel at around 60+ rpm with lead filled copper media. Never dried the components first.

I then switched to a HF Mill with an 82rpm speed and 0.50 ball media. Then got horrible clumping even when the mill was completely level.

Never solved the issue with the HF Mill.

[HWooldridge]

I don't have any experience making BP but I've been around industrial tumbling and ball milling for about 30 years. One thing generally seen is some method to lift the media and product, otherwise the work remains static and the barrel turns underneath without creating any breaking action. Simple ways to accomplish this would be to line a barrel with rubber to provide some grip, or adding paddles, or using a hex barrel. I have also seen vibratory and high velocity mills.

Another tool that might work in this application is a muller, which is used by foundries to mix green sand for mold use. Most can be adjusted to regulate the amount of crushing. The only issue I see for powder work is that non-sparking components would be required (same as a ball mill) and most are open topped - although I'm sure a lid could be added.

[Vettepilot]

I have three full length "trippers" in my mill jars, and use copper tubing lengths 1/2" long filled with lead for media. They mill quite effectively, except for this dam clumping.

I am trying to remember if this started when I started cooking my charcoal a bit less or not, but just can't remember, and unfortunately didn't put that in my notes. Another question is about my rice starch binder, and if it could be a factor. I add it from the start.

I guess a whole, intense testing regimen is in order next time I make powder. First, oven dry each ingredient. Then, try it without my rice starch binder. If a person knew for sure that it only occurred when the powder had truly been milled sufficiently, that would be great. Then, upon opening the jar and finding it clumped, you could just say "Ok, it's done now", and move to the next step. It's the not knowing, and having to bust it up and re-mill, only to have it happen again at some unknown time point, that is so aggravating.

Oh well...

Vettepilot

[indian joe]

I have three full length "trippers" in my mill jars, and use copper tubing lengths 1/2" long filled with lead for media. They mill quite effectively, except for this dam clumping.

I am trying to remember if this started when I started cooking my charcoal a bit less or not, but just can't remember, and unfortunately didn't put that in my notes. Another question is about my rice starch binder, and if it could be a factor. I add it from the start.

I guess a whole, intense testing regimen is in order next time I make powder. First, oven dry each ingredient. Then, try it without my rice starch binder. If a person knew for sure that it only occurred when the powder had truly been milled sufficiently, that would be great. Then, upon opening the jar and finding it clumped, you could just say "Ok, it's done now", and move to the next step. It's the not knowing, and having to bust it up and re-mill, only to have it happen again at some unknown time point, that is so aggravating.

Oh well...

Vettepilot

rub it between your finger tips - if you can feel even the slightest hint of graininess in the clumped stuff it aint done - should feel like good talcum powder - maybe that not enough but its an indicator .

[LAGS]

The only times that I have had a clumping problem using my HF mill , was when I used a binder or I had the patio misters running in the area of my mill.
It will clump up if the mill drum is not level.
It makes a clump at the lower end of the drum.
But I do not make the amounts of powder that most of you do.
I only use Dextrin for Screened powder.
So that limits the amount of powder that I have to keep checking on when milling.

[Vettepilot]

Yeah, this is happening with my two, larger PVC mill jars. I had mentioned myself here in the forum about the importance of having the mill level a while back. That seemed to temporarily solve my problem, but now it's back with a vengeance.

Hmm... thinking about that, I do realize a difference in conditions. It's come down from the insane 120 degree ambient temperature it had been, to a balmy 70-80 degrees. Don't know if that could be a clue or not.

Also, you mention getting clumping when including your binder. At present, I am only doing the easier/quicker screened powder since I'm not currently loading or shooting cartridges. So I am milling with my rice starch binder.

Vettepilot

[LAGS]

The last batch I made for screening.
I milled the powder for hours.
Then added the binder that had already been milled.
I let them mill for an hour , and no clumping.
It was mainly because I went from that batch originally intended for pressing.
Then I changed my mind when the powder was ready , then added the binder.

[HamGunner]

This is after 4 hours milling time. Very slight caking around the lid edges, but nothing to speak of in the mix. Certainly better than my last batch at this point as it was starting to cake at 4 hours. I ran it for 8 hours if I remember correctly and it had just caked more each time I checked it.

This feels really fine like talcum powder with no dissemblance of granules left in it at all. Did not do a burn test on paper, but it does flash quickly. Likely could call it done, but I will mill it another 2 hours and check again. I am fairly certain that 6 hours should be plenty of mill time for sure.

This is 50/50 Black Willow/Sassafras Charcoal cooked under 600 degrees, that was mostly air float, but for sure easily passed a #40 screen. When I made it I immediately after taking it out of my Retort, ground, screened, and then sealed. I did not reheat it in the oven prior to mixing this time.

My Sulfur is produced from natural gas and is 99% pure with no additives and was already ground fine enough to easily pass my #40 screen.

Potassium Nitrate is also right at 99% pure with no additives and was in Prill form. I ground it in an electric coffee grinder until it passed my #40 screen and then I sprinkled it into three large cookie sheets and placed in the oven at around 200 degrees for about 40 minutes. It tried to cake up on the cookie sheets after the oven so I had to scrape it off the sheets after it cooled. Was still super fine, but just caked up a bit.

This batch of 1 1/2 lbs. of mix was placed in my rubber lined hexagon 15 lb. Thumblers Tumbler barrel with another left over 1/2 lb. of screened dust/flour from my last big batch of Black Willow. The mill has well over 10 lbs. and perhaps more of .32 Cal. soft lead shot along with about 2 dozen hard cast 12 gauge ball. The mill is now running at just over 40 rpm and I can hear the cascading of the shot.

Edit: After this batch was finished, I weighted the lead media. I have 15 lbs. total.

Weather conditions is about 50% humidity and below freezing outside at the mill.

From what I am seeing is that I might have mixed my last batch, that clumped a good bit more, during a bit higher humidity plus I did not dry out my Potassium Nitrate and that has made a big difference in the clumping I think. At least that is my story and I am sticking to it. Will post a picture later of the final results plus a burn test on paper before compression.

Edit: I just noticed that the picture shows that there was some caking build up on the six sides of the barrel. As compared to the next picture after six hours mill time where the caking on the sides had stopped and the sides were clean.