My homemade black powder

[HamGunner]

HamGunner; is your frame a 12 or 20 ton?
Graysmoke

I have a 3" die and it needs close to 11 ton pressure to give the 3,500 psi minimum pressure recommended according to a chart that someone posted probably a few hundred or more posts back. I have the Harbor Freight frame that comes with a 12 ton jack, so I am sure it was only rated for that. The 12 ton jack was bending the lower support rails so I had to replace them with much sturdier rectangular steel. My 12 ton jack shot craps so I got a 20 ton to replace it thinking that I could just stop cranking the jack when I thought it had enough. But, you know how it is. I just crank it down to where I can barely manage to pull the handle down and when the press frame is starting to complain.

I have always had a flat 1/4" steel plate placed on top of the two lower support rail base plates so I have had no problems with them breaking. I do have a bit of an upward bulge in the top support beams. I think the Harbor Freight 12 ton press set up was just barely capable of 12 ton as it comes. With my improvements, it is certainly barely capable of handling 20 tons, but so far it is holding. I did notice that the two cross adjustment support rods were starting to bend, so I will have to get some harder adjustment support rods or give up on the under sized press and get a proper size.

I just pressed another 1 1/2 lb. batch of TP today with some added TP fines left over from my last batch. I am going to do a much more meticulous measurement of the density after I have it dried, ground, and screened. A measurement just for my own knowledge if nothing else. But whatever it ends up being is what it will be, but whatever true density it is, it has been making very fine powder.

I charred three rolls of TP this time in my large pressure pan, on my fish fryer burner, which has a fine tuning gas flow adjustment for managing the heat. I have a baffle in the bottom of the pan to keep the TP up off the bottom and I have a round weld wire cage that I made to keep the TP from touching the sides of the pan. A temperature gauge placed down into the center of the pressure release stem in the lid t so I can keep a very close eye on the internal temperature. This batch I made sure that the temperature never got above 550 F. My first batch got up to 600 F and I charred it a little longer than one hour. I think it was a slight bit over charred.

One hour of cook time for this batch gave me some really nice dark golden brown colored charred TP. It was still smoking just a bit when I took it off the heat. Just 30 minutes in the mill and it was air float. I think this batch will be very energetic.

[DoubleBuck]

HamGunner:
That's what I'm talking about! I'm really interested to hear reports on this batch! That is my next project, but have been busy on other things. But, I'm planning on making a brown batch, and trying a different recipe and a somewhat different grain size to compare results. I hope yours comes out beautiful and please kick those numbers out, when you can!

[Linstrum]

DoubleBuck I sent you a private message.

[2TM101]

I have a 3" Woody's die and the die itself is very sturdy stainless steel. I now use a 20 ton jack and it works well. I had to beef up the Harbor Freight press stand a bit as even when I was still using a 12 ton jack before it went South, it was more than the stock press stand wanted on a regular basis.

A 12 ton jack with the Woodys die just barely does it. You get 3428 PSI and for Sulfur to plasticize the number I have is 3500, which sounds rounded off, so maybe close enough. I only get 2857 with my 10 ton so I still have a Woodys die I can't use - at least with BP.

Though I just had a thought: what if I am re-pucking fines? They were subjected to 10,000 PSI when they were pucked the first time - the Sulfur has been converted. If I could use the Woodys die the second time around it would be 3 1/2 times faster as it would be a 7 sq in puck as opposed to 2 (40mm)

[2TM101]

2TM101; I’ve been using a 20 ton harbor freight press with the 30 mm dab press and belled the mouth so I got a 40 mm press to replace it.

A 30mm DabPress is 1 sq in. You have been giving it 40,000 PSI. I can see why it bent. You will get 5700 PSI with a 3" diameter (7 Sq In) Woodys die and really should go that way.

Sulfur only needs 3500 PSI to convert. I have been using a 40mm with a 6 ton press and have been getting 6000 PSI from it, which is close to what you would get with a 20 ton press and a 3" puck die. And still way more than needed to make the Sulfur change.

[Graysmoke]

2TH101; I pucked up 1/2 # yesterday and dried with some warm air ground it and used some today. Volume measure when set at 100 grs throws 80 grs. I was loading cedar char to 90 grs to pull the same elevation poi. This I had to drop to 80 measured to close the group, I think it might be a little more energetic cause it started grouping 3” at 50 yds 3 1/2” at 100 yds.even though it is very light.
By the way I put a band around the 40 mm die just to watch for any belling, none so far. 80grs. is prob. at 76-78 but does well to start.

[HamGunner]

I just edited my above post about the density of my recent TP charred Black Powder. I just now re-weighed both my older Sassafras as well as my recent TP powders and the Sassafras is more like 94%, but the TP is much closer to Goex at around 98%.

Well, I completed my last batch of TP powder and I decided to really do a very careful measurement and calculation of just what the density ended up being compared to my Goex. I have a calibrated syringe and I was going to see what 100 grains measured, but it just so happens to hold exactly 200 grains of Goex when it is filled completely to the top. So I measured it three times with Goex and then three times with my recent TP powder.

My actual density of my TP, I believe, after a more careful test is now what I am claiming to only be 92.5 %. The weight of the syringe full of TP powder was a consistent 185 grains. That equates to 92.5% of 200 grains. I guess I was much closer when thinking it was around 94%. I really doubted it could possibly be the 98% that a quick test showed me. I likely measured it right after screening and before I let the screened grains air dry a bit more on cookie sheets, which is my normal procedure.

I wish it was 98%, but unless we can manage the extremely high and prolonged pressures that can be attained in a commercial factory, I guess we will likely have to accept lower densities. Milling the screened powder again without media and screening again might increase the density a small amount.

Nonetheless, I am happy with what I am getting. My methods have been improved many times and it is getting much less labor intensive for me now. It works and it works well. Plus, the price is right.

[2TM101]

I have a 3" die and it needs close to 11 ton pressure to give the 3,500 psi minimum pressure recommended according to a chart that someone posted probably a few hundred or more posts back

The 3" die is 7 sq in of surface area 7 X 3500 = 24,500 so 12 1/4 tons. I'm not sure that last 1/4 ton is vital so a 12 ton press should do it.

In my case the first go around is a 6 ton press and a 40mm die, which is 2 Sq In. 2sq in X 12000 PSI needed = 6000 PSI and I only need 3500 so even if my my leaky Chinese jack is underperforming, even a lot, its enough.

After that I figure the Sulfur has been converted, so all the fines from the first run, like 40% of it (am I grinding it wrong?) go with the 3" Woodys die. 12000lb / 7 sq in is barely 1400 PSI. NOT enough to make the Sulfur "plasticize" but if that has already happened, it is enough to make another puck I can grind again - and over 3 times faster than using the original die.

[HamGunner]

NOT enough to make the Sulfur "plasticize" but if that has already happened, it is enough to make another puck I can grind again - and over 3 times faster than using the original die.

I would think that you would be just fine. Like you say, it already has been subjected to the pressure.

My 12 Ton jack only lasted for about my first three or four batches and it blew a seal. I have been using a 20 ton jack ever since for my 3" die. Likely a bit over kill, but then i do not hold the pressure as long a some seem to be doing.

[Sandro_ventania]

the new video of everything black powder, says that pressing up to 1.5g/cc produces cleaner powder. So I see that popping the hydraulic jack is a waste of time.

[2TM101]

the new video of everything black powder, says that pressing up to 1.5g/cc produces cleaner powder. So I see that popping the hydraulic jack is a waste of time.

The pucked/corned powder has two advantages. One is that it is better suited to guns where capacity is limited, like revolvers and cartridges, because you can get more in. The other is nice hard granules that hold their shape.

The problem with screened powder is that it has much weaker granules. You can use more volume in a one shot gun but if you use too much force seating the ball it will start to crumble back into dust. Which probably happens a lot, actually. And depending on how much of it crumbled, the burn rate will vary quite a bit and accuracy will be non existent.

[HamGunner]

the new video of everything black powder, says that pressing up to 1.5g/cc produces cleaner powder. So I see that popping the hydraulic jack is a waste of time.

I agree with your assessment, and Jake's, if one is muzzle loading, but only to a certain degree even there. I am sure we most all agree that crushed powder will not give as consistent a pressure from shot to shot as denser powder that is much harder to crush. Perhaps 1.5g/cc is plenty hard enough not to crush under normal muzzle loading procedures, and in that case, then perhaps Jake is correct, at least for his type of use. And cleanliness is certainly very desirable if the other factors are good as well, but if accuracy was more desirable, I could live with the need for a bit more cleaning along the way if denser powder helped with accuracy.

I like Jake's videos, although I do not always agree with everything he does or says. For the most part, he seems to be fairly accurate in his assessments for making the powder as well as for muzzle loading, but I shoot probably 90% of my Black Powder in revolvers. Most of that in Cap n Ball revolvers, with a small amount in cartridge revolvers, but only around 10% in muzzle loaders. Jake's assessments therefore only fit my needs part way. I need as much density as I can get so I can more completely fill my chambers or cartridge cases and get as little resulting pressure variation as possible, and the cleanliness is not quite as important to me, even if his assessment about that is correct.

I do not believe that I am wasting MY time by striving for the higher densities. For other's needs, you are perhaps very correct and it is not nearly such an important factor.

[Sandro_ventania]

I agree with your assessment, and Jake's, if one is muzzle loading, but only to a certain degree even there. I am sure we most all agree that crushed powder will not give as consistent a pressure from shot to shot as denser powder that is much harder to crush. Perhaps 1.5g/cc is plenty hard enough not to crush under normal muzzle loading procedures, and in that case, then perhaps Jake is correct, at least for his type of use. And cleanliness is certainly very desirable if the other factors are good as well, but if accuracy was more desirable, I could live with the need for a bit more cleaning along the way if denser powder helped with accuracy.

I like Jake's videos, although I do not always agree with everything he does or says. For the most part, he seems to be fairly accurate in his assessments for making the powder as well as for muzzle loading, but I shoot probably 90% of my Black Powder in revolvers. Most of that in Cap n Ball revolvers, with a small amount in cartridge revolvers, but only around 10% in muzzle loaders. Jake's assessments therefore only fit my needs part way. I need as much density as I can get so I can more completely fill my chambers or cartridge cases and get as little resulting pressure variation as possible, and the cleanliness is not quite as important to me, even if his assessment about that is correct.

I do not believe that I am wasting MY time by striving for the higher densities. For other's needs, you are perhaps very correct and it is not nearly such an important factor.

If you need high density, then do as I do. A mold measuring no more than 2 inches and thin discs, no more than 1/4 inch. I can get up to 2g/cc.

[HWooldridge]

If you need high density, then do as I do. A mold measuring no more than 2 inches and thin discs, no more than 1/4 inch. I can get up to 2g/cc.

Or use a bigger press - I have a 50 ton Dake and generally press to 25 tons on a 2” puck.

[Nobade]

And as Brett Gibbons explained in his book, the English powder made at Waltham Abbey was pressed to 1.5g/cc because they found it gave higher muzzle velocity and was cleaner burning. I don't like to go below that because the grains are not hard enough but I don't worry too much about absolute density, I just figure out the difference in a particular batch of powder compared to what my measure is calibrated for and adjust accordingly. And yes, that sometimes gives a bit lighter loads in cartridges. It seems to work fine in revolvers since the best load is seldom completely full so there's room for a bit more.

[HamGunner]

the new video of everything black powder, says that pressing up to 1.5g/cc produces cleaner powder. So I see that popping the hydraulic jack is a waste of time.
I can get up to 2g/cc.

Then if popping a jack in an attempt to get decent density is a waste of time, do tell us why you waste your time getting 2g/cc.

And I really am not after all that much density myself. My thinking is that close to 1.7g/cc would likely be more than enough for my uses in cartridges or Cap n Ball and I am likely getting that presently. I am very happy with my results, popping seals on jacks or not.

[Sandro_ventania]

Then if popping a jack in an attempt to get decent density is a waste of time, do tell us why you waste your time getting 2g/cc.

And I really am not after all that much density myself. My thinking is that close to 1.7g/cc would likely be more than enough for my uses in cartridges or Cap n Ball and I am likely getting that presently. I am very happy with my results, popping seals on jacks or not.

This is easy to answer! Just to know that I can do it if I want or need it. In the same way, I try to make Black powder better and better just to know that I can. I can get a powder as good or almost as good as Black powder, in 10 minutes on the pan and stove, without any need to have a ball mill running for 24 hours, without needing to make charcoal, without needing to press. The most fun isn't the end result, it's the journey there!

[indian joe]

The pucked/corned powder has two advantages. One is that it is better suited to guns where capacity is limited, like revolvers and cartridges, because you can get more in. The other is nice hard granules that hold their shape.

The problem with screened powder is that it has much weaker granules. You can use more volume in a one shot gun but if you use too much force seating the ball it will start to crumble back into dust. Which probably happens a lot, actually. And depending on how much of it crumbled, the burn rate will vary quite a bit and accuracy will be non existent.

couple things I would argue "better in revolvers" cartridge revolvers yeah ---not cap and ball though just fill the cylinders flush, compress with the loading lever, put a ball in - we use screened powder in ALL our muzleloaded guns.

non existent accuracy ???? baloney - I tested - no loss of accuracy compared to our stock compare of Goex ---n I got the trophys on the shelf to prove the point

Using 2% home cooked Dextrin in screened powder - yeah its not as tough and hard as pucked but we got three year old screened powder here been stored in the horn hangin on a peg like the old days - carted to the range several times - still got decent grain structure ---dunno what we're doin different but I will shoot screened in our front loaders till the cows come home.

[shaman]

I have a question for y'all: what size are your balls? What are they made of?

No, not those balls! I mean the balls y'all stick in with your powder when you send them through the ball mill. On my first batch of BP, I just grabbed what was handy: .715 cal pure lead balls from my Brown Bess. Those worked fine, but now that I've proved that I can make BP, I'm interested in refining my technique.

[swamp]

I use .600 rb hard cast.
swamp