My homemade black powder

[HWooldridge]

It worked when posted, but is now a dead link, and that is probably a dead give away. I cleared my history, and don't have the ability to check if it was wiped out, or just delinked.

I watched it - was a helluva explosion.

[Vettepilot]

Well, a 12 gauge shell uses around 85 grains of powder. An inline 50 cal uses 150 grains for a "Magnum" load. Many rifles use only 60 grains, and pistols 30 or less. So yeah, him blowing over 9000 grains all at once would be a bit of an explosion for sure. Of course, the amount/strength of containment would be a factor too. I've seen improperly done cannon loads just go "Fwooosh"...

Vettepilot

[StevenDJ]

There are lots of interesting thoughts in this thread, from how to make BP and those that wonder if somehow we are going to end up on a government watch list. Like you, I just want to participate in a hobby that to the uninformed looks like the dangers to ourselves can't be managed or that we present a danger to society. Although this is not new 'science', scientists working outside the accepted cultural norms have for centuries have been viewed with suspicion.

Where I live, I am legally able to purchase BP, although it is difficult because of supply chains. For me that is my justification to proceed, even though I am sure that a magistrate could have a field day with the evidence.

For those that are joining us on this journey, READ THE WHOLE THREAD. I have re-read the thread again and I am up to page 304 for the second time. Different things stand out to me that were not on my radar the first time. All the information is here.

Brimstone, thank you for patiently answering my above question in regards to grain mills. In re-reading see the grain mill idea has already been covered.

Someone posted a while back, that a list of variables would be useful. After this thread, I started to list the variables that impact the performance of the final BP. Some of these are critical, others probably less so. Some may have no effect. These are in no particular order. What else needs to be added to this list?

Variables

• Ingredient Ratios (75:15:10)
• Purity of sulfur and KNO3
• Milling time
• Milling media
• Ball mill RPM
• Moisture content at pressing
• Grain size
• Charcoal cooking time
• Charcoal cooking temperature
• Charcoal wood species
• Puck density
• Compression dwell time
• Number of pucks per pressing
• Graphite coating
• Season for harvesting charcoal wood
• Ash content of charcoal
• Are the grains polished by further tumbling
• Drying method for pucks
• Percentage of moisture in dry puck
• Is alcohol used in screened powder
• Which binders are used in screened powder
• Wood drying time

[indian joe]

There are lots of interesting thoughts in this thread, from how to make BP and those that wonder if somehow we are going to end up on a government watch list. Like you, I just want to participate in a hobby that to the uninformed looks like the dangers to ourselves can't be managed or that we present a danger to society. Although this is not new 'science', scientists working outside the accepted cultural norms have for centuries have been viewed with suspicion.

Where I live, I am legally able to purchase BP, although it is difficult because of supply chains. For me that is my justification to proceed, even though I am sure that a magistrate could have a field day with the evidence.

For those that are joining us on this journey, READ THE WHOLE THREAD. I have re-read the thread again and I am up to page 304 for the second time. Different things stand out to me that were not on my radar the first time. All the information is here.

Brimstone, thank you for patiently answering my above question in regards to grain mills. In re-reading see the grain mill idea has already been covered.

Someone posted a while back, that a list of variables would be useful. After this thread, I started to list the variables that impact the performance of the final BP. Some of these are critical, others probably less so. Some may have no effect. These are in no particular order. What else needs to be added to this list?

some comments just for fun some of these things matter a lot, some not much, some not at all
Variables

• Ingredient Ratios (75:25:10) ??(75:15:10)
• Purity of sulfur and KNO3 = no brainer
• Milling time =depends
• Milling media = no brainer
• Ball mill RPM = depends - get it right for mill and drum size
• Moisture content at pressing = learn the hard way - everybody uese too much at the start
• Grain size ? = tune it to what you want
• Charcoal cooking time = less is better than more - figure out what works
• Charcoal cooking temperature = again less is better than too much - figure it out
• Charcoal wood species = there are a few good ones and many not so good for shooting powder (shooting powder aint pyro powder we require cleaner burn they dont)
• Puck density = only matters for cartridge shooters - Mloaders can use screened
• Compression dwell time = figure it out
• Number of pucks per pressing = just a means to speed the process ("pressure is distributed equally and undiminished" can be used to some extent here)
• Graphite coating = sacrifice some effectiveness for convenience?
• Season for harvesting charcoal wood = a technicality I think - variety more important
• Ash content of charcoal = another technicality
• Are the grains polished by further tumbling = another convenience thing
• Drying method for pucks = whatever works - they must be dry
• Percentage of moisture in dry puck = dry enough you can store it for two years without clumping in the can
• Is alcohol used in screened powder = forget it - dumb idea
• Which binders are used in screened powder = whatever works - dextrin - rice starch - etc
• Wood drying time = I cut dry dead wood - cuz its there and easy got

..........
should say to finish I have much more fun shooting this stuff than making it - making good quality, clean burning, consistent velocity, powder has not been difficult - I am somewhere between Goex and Swiss in energy level - not interested in the work required to beat Swiss - would rather go shoot and also think something would be lost in the gain .

[StevenDJ]

..........
should say to finish I have much more fun shooting this stuff than making it - making good quality, clean burning, consistent velocity, powder has not been difficult - I am somewhere between Goex and Swiss in energy level - not interested in the work required to beat Swiss - would rather go shoot and also think something would be lost in the gain .

Indian joe, even though I decided to list the variables, I must say I actually agree with you. I have never bought a can of blackpowder or smokeless powder! I don't even own a muzzleloader of any kind I would actually predict that I am unlikely to ever buy a can of blackpowder. So, I have no comparison to make and because of this I am well satisfied with my results. Yes, most of the variables are easily taken care of but they are still variables.

For the moment I am using my blackpowder to reload my old H&R Singleshot 12 gauge. Now that I am satisfied with my BP for this purpose, I will buy a muzzleloader. I can't afford a new gun (well I could but there are competing priorities). I would like a smooth bore, and all of the second hand guns I have seen are rifled. So I am just waiting for the right thing to come up. In the meantime I am having fun with what I have.

It is plenty powerful, smells good and leaves lots of white smoke when I shoot it. I'm happy

I just like to do things myself. I grow our own meat, make all the soap we need from our animals (haven't bought a bar in 5 years), grow the vegetables and fruit we need, trade with others for the things we don't yet grow, scrounge for pallets and timber from the building site skips to make the small things, make my hay with a scythe and rake. Making powder is just another thing I like to enjoy. It is also so cheap to make that I can afford to 'waste it' by making explosives and fireworks (which I am still learning)

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I can't get that to connect or download, but would like to see it. Help?

Thanks,

Vettepilot

I can't get it to work anymore either. Very odd. The test wasn't done recently so not sure what's going on.

One thing that I always wondered about was the ball media becoming projectiles. In his test the balls didn't fly out with any real force. Most were found within 15 feet of the blast and when it hit the soft mud it didn't penetrate so these likely wouldn't cause much damage.

His mill was PVC and the plastic did shatter and would have been lethal. I use a rubber jar from Harbor Freight like a lot of us here. I don't think it would have the same effect. Nonetheless I wouldn't want my face or hands anywhere close when it detonated. I typically mill 1/2 pound at a time which is much less than the 600 grams of the test.

[StevenDJ]

I do my milling at my (small 18 acre) farm. If any thing were to go wrong with my mill it should not damage anything there. To keep my mill out of any potential weather, I place it in what Australian's call a 'wheely bin' (see image) on its side. I run a timer to let my mill run for 12 hours, but this last batch clumped up in the ends and I would like to be able to check it periodically.

I don't think this would fully contain a 300g charge in a PVC mill with ceramic media, but I do wonder how much this might contain a potential explosion. They are tough, but I don't think they are "300g of BP tough". I would like to be able to mill at my home in town and wonder if I were to use the bin and place some hay bales around and on top of this whether it would stop any catastrophe impacting the neighbours.

As this last batch clumped, I brought it home, dried it for a couple of days with decicant and by placing in a warm place, then milled again. It clumped within the first hour again. I have not yet pressed the powder but the green meal flashes fast.

Any thoughts on the bin and the clumping?

[henryinpanama]

I can't get that to connect or download, but would like to see it. Help?

Thanks,

Vettepilot

Here it is.

the explosion of a ball milling jar.pdf

[StevenDJ]

OH DEAR!

Henryinpanama, I wont be bringing the milling operation into town any time soon! My tipped up garbage bin can keep the weather off my mill, but I wont be relying on it to do even the slightest job of containing even a fraction of a potential explosion.

Now my next job will be making a concrete bunker.

[LAGS]

Just make your bunker out of sand bags.
It is cheaper and material is more available.
Plus ,
Sandbags do deflect the pressures and absorbed them at the same time more than concrete.

[indian joe]

OH DEAR!

Henryinpanama, I wont be bringing the milling operation into town any time soon! My tipped up garbage bin can keep the weather off my mill, but I wont be relying on it to do even the slightest job of containing even a fraction of a potential explosion.

Now my next job will be making a concrete bunker.

This might sound silly ---but ---parking the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff?????
Direct some of your energy to prevention
Lose the ceramic media
Remote switch it
Run at night rather than daytime
Ground your mill motor -- a static strap to a stake in the ground and keep the earth around the stake damp so you have good conductivity
use a solid wooden bench to mount it (your mill) on
dunno about the wheelie bin - electric driven mill sitting indside there - sounds like a static trap to me
You have 18 acres -- the blast area if it goes off will be 30 or 40 yards - spend your energy on other stuff - prevention - part of that is preventing unauthorised access to the site.

[StevenDJ]

The ambulance analogy is fair. It does not sound silly at all. We are all trying to make our point across a media that does not communicate as well as a regular discussion.

What follows are genuine questions. I hope not to come across defensive. I am happy to learn from others, but I don't want to be following folk law.

The jury seems to be out on the ceramic media but the dangers of lead are clear. I guess the practical alternative is brass or lead filled copper tube (although that is still tumbling lead). Some might judge me crazy, but I really don't want to move away from ceramic. I am happy to discuss the merits of this further.

Remote switch? Why? I am not sure that it is anymore likely to 'go off' when it is switched on or off. It actually does remotely switch off because I use a timer so that it does not run until I return to the farm. I also start the timer from inside my shipping container where my solar charge controller, batteries and inverter lives. I do it there because it is convenient, but not because I am scared of it. Tell me why I am wrong.

Why does the time of day matter? I do tend to run the mill at night because I do my chores in the evening and I set it going when I leave. But why does this matter? Are you thinking humidity?

Yes I can ground my motor. That is a practical thing that would take very little time to achieve. At the moment it is so soggy that the chance of accumulating any static charge is zero. (I can't graze my cows because it is so wet. They are currently pugging up a small area and I am feeding hay). Summer will be a different story and grounding would be very good advice at that time of year.

I will take your comment regarding my wheelie bin static trap and act on this. This is why the forum exists. I saw this as an easy solution to running the mill away from important things and keeping it out of the weather, but did not consider static. Maybe I could use a spare steel drum to do the same task. Thank you.

I agree that preventing unauthorised access is a good idea, but this is not a blackpowder issue.

Why mounting on the bench? Yes I have a heavy steel framed bench with a plywood top that I could mount it too, but what are your thoughts behind mounting securely. The mill is so heavy that it does not vibrate or walk on the surface it is placed on.

The concrete bunker was a bit of an exaggeration. I do have 6 sand bags that have gone on top of the wheelie bin, and a 10mm steel plate between the mill/bin and the shipping container. I just think I may need to do more.

What are others doing that don't have the space I do? How are you running your mills safely in the garage or backyard? I feel very blessed to have this space and would be happy to share it with the right people.

Steve

[HamGunner]

Any thoughts on the bin and the clumping?

I would think that a simple small wooden shed or enclosure could be used to keep any rain off the mill and should be safe enough.

As for clumping, well we had a good discussion about this many pages back and I think most came to the conclusion that all the ingredients needed to be very dry before milling to help prevent clumping.

I feel that drying before weighing would also give a more accurate composition to the mix. I have not had problems with clumping since I started drying my raw ingredients before weighing and placing into the mill. I think minor clumping will happen when the mixture is well milled, but I have checked my mill throughout it's session and only minor clumping on the lid was happening. Nothing like before I started drying my ingredients in the oven prior to mixing and milling.

[StevenDJ]

I would think that a simple small wooden shed or enclosure could be used to keep any rain off the mill and should be safe enough.

As for clumping, well we had a good discussion about this many pages back and I think most came to the conclusion that all the ingredients needed to be very dry before milling to help prevent clumping.

I feel that drying before weighing would also give a more accurate composition to the mix. I have not had problems with clumping since I started drying my raw ingredients before weighing and placing into the mill. I think minor clumping will happen when the mixture is well milled, but I have checked my mill throughout it's session and only minor clumping on the lid was happening. Nothing like before I started drying my ingredients in the oven prior to mixing and milling.

Thanks HamGunner. I remember reading about this but did not take notes because I wasn't experiencing the problem at the time. Using the advanced search, I found the conversation between you and Vettepilot around posts #6965 onwards on page 349. ( I am up to page 326 in my re-read). I'll take home a 0.01g scale from the school lab, dry the KNO3 and Charcoal and see what type of moisture they loose after a couple of hours in a low oven. The charcoal will be the tricky one to dry. It is not airfloat, but it has been crushed fine and there is plenty of fine particles with the larger pieces. I would not want to blow it everywhere with the fan forced oven.

I think your small wooden shed idea sounds like a practical solution. It sounds like a pallet project. If I blow charcoal all over the kitchen, I might need make a large wooden shed to keep the weather off me too!

[indian joe]

The ambulance analogy is fair. It does not sound silly at all. We are all trying to make our point across a media that does not communicate as well as a regular discussion.

What follows are genuine questions. I hope not to come across defensive. I am happy to learn from others, but I don't want to be following folk law.

The jury seems to be out on the ceramic media but the dangers of lead are clear. I guess the practical alternative is brass or lead filled copper tube (although that is still tumbling lead). Some might judge me crazy, but I really don't want to move away from ceramic. I am happy to discuss the merits of this further.

We have different priorities here --if by chance you get metal contamination (a sliver of steel) in your mill drum then ceramic media could initiate a spark = kaboom! - with lead ball media -- no chance of that. So I am not too concerned about lead dust contamination of the powder when I shoot it - we handle lead boolits in our shooting, casting, etc - I live clean and take appropriate sensible precautions with all of it - and there are ways to detox using natural means. Yes am aware of the potential for harm but not scared of it - that danger pales into insignificance alongside one jibby jab for the scamdemic.

Remote switch? Why? I am not sure that it is anymore likely to 'go off' when it is switched on or off. It actually does remotely switch off because I use a timer so that it does not run until I return to the farm. I also start the timer from inside my shipping container where my solar charge controller, batteries and inverter lives. I do it there because it is convenient, but not because I am scared of it. Tell me why I am wrong.

Not wrong just one more little safety step can be taken easily - my logic ? If there is some contamination (steel shaving + ceramic marbles) or the imaginary chance of impact detonation - its more likely on startup than through the cycle - if a connection sparks at the initial load and some mill dust is lingering around the place - remote is safer.

Why does the time of day matter? I do tend to run the mill at night because I do my chores in the evening and I set it going when I leave. But why does this matter? Are you thinking humidity?

yeah humidity and cooler - a bit of loose powder ignites about ten times easier in the warm midday sun than on a cold doughy night.

Yes I can ground my motor. That is a practical thing that would take very little time to achieve. At the moment it is so soggy that the chance of accumulating any static charge is zero. (I can't graze my cows because it is so wet. They are currently pugging up a small area and I am feeding hay). Summer will be a different story and grounding would be very good advice at that time of year.

not an expert on static - though have seen some really scary stuff around harvesting machinery in the dark - machine running at idle, a big flat drive belt with light friction on the pulleys the belt just slowly cruising around the pulleys without driving anything - a blue flame dancing an inch or so up and down and around the complete periphery of that belt - and then looping across a two inch gap to the metal body of the machine - scared the whatsit out of me -- years later machines burning up all over the place harvesting lupins and beans - blokes blamed the furry dust clinging everywhere - but it wasnt starting on overheated bearings, it wasnt starting on the hot exhaust pipes, and if you dragged a good static strap it didnt happen.

I will take your comment regarding my wheelie bin static trap and act on this. This is why the forum exists. I saw this as an easy solution to running the mill away from important things and keeping it out of the weather, but did not consider static. Maybe I could use a spare steel drum to do the same task. Thank you.

I agree that preventing unauthorised access is a good idea, but this is not a blackpowder issue.

Why mounting on the bench? Yes I have a heavy steel framed bench with a plywood top that I could mount it too, but what are your thoughts behind mounting securely. The mill is so heavy that it does not vibrate or walk on the surface it is placed on.

Wood = inert - good insulation - earth the motor out - anything you do on the table top should be pretty safe - If you took a synthetic cloth and wiped around the inside of the plastic bin - the hair on your arm holding the cloth proly stand up ? little bit static there ? if something one day goes haywire with the mill - it starts walkin around and rubs the can up against something ? bolt it to the wood bench cant happen.

The concrete bunker was a bit of an exaggeration. I do have 6 sand bags that have gone on top of the wheelie bin, and a 10mm steel plate between the mill/bin and the shipping container. I just think I may need to do more.

What are others doing that don't have the space I do? How are you running your mills safely in the garage or backyard? I feel very blessed to have this space and would be happy to share it with the right people.

I point blank would not do it in town -- if nothing else the clatter of that mill running would drive the neighbors nuts - pvc drum + lead round ball media, I can hear that thing running from 100yards away at night.

Steve

......

[StevenDJ]

Indian Joe, Many thanks for the clarification. Much appreciated.

[HamGunner]

I got a chance to shoot some of my recently made Sassafras powder and compare it to Goex. I no longer have any FFFG Goex, but my old Goex that I do have is FFG and my homemade Sassafras granulation is more likely between FFG and FFFG in size. I just shoot .36 cal. and .32 cal. so I screen with a 20 and a 40 screen. I keep anything that passes the 20 and will not pass the 40 screen. I imagine Goex size FFFG will pass a 30 and likely not pass a 50, but I am just guessing. I likely have FFFG+ or half way between Goex FFG and Goex FFFG. I have used Elephant in years past and it always measured about the same as Goex, but I never used Swiss, so most other powders size is unknown to me and I am just comparing what I have experience with.

Anyway, my homemade Sassafras <20 >40 granulation size measured out, compared to FFG Goex with the same measure, is right at the same weighed out. I do have a few more noticeable fines than the FFG Goex.

I wondered if they would be anywhere close to each other in velocity, so I fired six equal measured charges of each powder in each of my two cylinders of my 1974 model Pietta 1851 Navy .36 cal. for a total of 24 shots. Each cylinder gave comparable average velocities between the two powders. One cylinder gave slightly higher average velocities compared to the other cylinder, but both powders fired in it were almost a match as well.

I fired an 82 gr. .380 ball in all 24 shots using CCI #10 caps with charges of 24 gr. by weight and I got an average of around 850 fps with both powders in one cylinder and 820 fps average in the other. The velocities of the two powders were quite close, but Goex slightly beat out my powder for extreme spread even though the average velocities for both powders were nearly the same. Goex average velocity extreme spread was right around 30 fps and my Sassafras was right around 60 fps.

I concluded from my tests that my homemade powder is very comparable to Goex FFG in performace. I have normally read that the recommended powder size for .36 cal. revolvers is FFFG, but then in his book "Sixgun", Elmer Keith recommends FFG. Whatever I actually have, it compares to FFG Goex and I am happy with it's performance.

[StevenDJ]

That's fantastic! I am a numbers kind of guy and it looks as though you may be also. It is one thing to shoot your powder and think it is pretty good. When you look at the numbers you know it is good. Well done.

[HWooldridge]

https://archive.org/details/mad_monk...e/CTG/mode/2up

This was posted a while back but the link is probably difficult to locate. Some really good info here on commercial manufacturing and safety practices (or lack thereof). Definitely worth reading.

[Brimstone]

Yes, Bill Knight's comments about Goex under Gerhardt and Owen and their very typical investor profit only penny pinching safety neglect practices are eye opening.
His work needs to be preserved, he's not around anymore so if the archives are lost, so is his work.

The 1986 Fed report of homie trying to repair the still energized light or power switch in the packing house and starting a chain reaction that blew the carts of powder was something out of a cartoon. I have to admit, I laughed.
No it wasn't a laughing matter for the employees but ya know, no one was injured in that specific event and Gerhardt and Owen didn't save any money. So I laughed. The electrician would have cost what compared to weeks of shutdown for an investigation and repairs? That's more money than brains right there.