My homemade black powder

[Swineherd]

Kinda funny, the ingredients list adds up to 111.24%

Taken at face value, it looks as though nothing in the bag is currently what could be considered potassium nitrate. Perhaps it's assumed the constituent chemicals will combine in the process of their use? I would be curious as to the results of a batch made with the substance as-is, versus one treated with dissolution in boiling distilled water, as prescribed by LAGS.

[Swineherd]

Tell me if I understand you correctly. Are you trying to say that there are other nitrate ions in the soil/manure that will dissolve along with the potassium ions present in wood ash that crystalize into the KNO3 when a solution is boiled.


Steve

Yes, as I understand it, the K2O+NO3=KNO3

[DoubleBuck]

MarLar;
I have used Seed Ranch Nitrate, for about 5 years and it has worked very well, but it also says 98.5% purity guaranteed, on the ingredients list.
The reason you add up more than 100%, when adding the numbers on the label, is because it's showing the percentages of Potassium and showing what percentage of that is Pot Ash. And, on the Nitrate, it's showing total Nitrogen and the percentage of Nitrate Nitrogen. Add the top three numbers and they add up to 97.74% purity. The last number is just saying all the Nitrogen is Nitrate Nitrogen.
If you decide to crystalize the Nitrate, bring your water to a boil and saturate it with Nitrate until it is totally saturated and will absorb no more. Then pour the water off the excess of the Nitrate and as it cools the crystals will grow. This will leave a liquor solution of about 10% Nitrate, approximately, that even cold water will hold. So, you won't be able to recover all of it. In the days of old, they just used that liquor to make the next batch of purified Nitrate.
Insoluble contaminates will either float to the top, and you can skim them off, or they will fall to the bottom, when the water begins to settle from boiling. If there are heavy contaminates setting on the bottom, pour the solution off of them, or as the crystals grow, they will encapsulate the contaminates, and the crystals will grow around them. It is an easy process, but if your Nitrate is high quality, it is not worth the time and trouble, to remove 1% of contaminates, as long as that 1% is not from Chlorides, or Silicates. You have to have some pretty technical equipment to gain 99+% purity (lab grade). If your Nitrate is in prill form, your impurity is most likely clay, which is used as a binder during the prilling process, which is usually done before the prills are ground to powder, if yours is in powder form. The binder is used to make commercial spreaders accept and correctly spread the fertilizer. That clay is generally passed on to the powdering process.
Edit to say, Distilled water weighs 8.330 pounds per gallon. Saturated water weighs 10.2 pounds per gallon. So, a gallon of water will hold about 1.87 pounds of Nitrate, +-.

[Swineherd]

[QUOTE=DoubleBuck;5631539]
The reason you add up more than 100%, when adding the numbers on the label, is because it's showing the percentages of Potassium and showing what percentage of that is Pot Ash. And, on the Nitrate, it's showing total Nitrogen and the percentage of Nitrate Nitrogen.

I'm having real trouble making sense of the percentages listed on that bag, even according to your interpretation. But, given you've used that specific brand without trouble, it's most likely good stuff, I'd assume.

[Swineherd]

If the potassium and Nitrogen comprise a combined 52.54% of the total, is the remaining 47.46% of any given quantity of potassium nitrate accounted for by oxygen? After all, it IS the oxidizer in our blackpowder. That would totally jive with DoubleBucks explanation of the percentages listed on the label.

[Swineherd]

Oh, that's totally what it is. Searching "potassium nitrate molecular weight calculation" gives numbers that mesh almost but not quite exactly.

Thanks DoubleBuck! You learned me something!

[DoubleBuck]

Swineherd;
The labels can be confusing. But, all that last number is showing is that the total Nitrogen content (13.5%) is all Nitrate Nitrogen (13.5%) If it had a different source of Nitrogen (Nitric Acid for example), it would also be shown as a percentage of the total. It looks to me like the total make up of his Nitrate is 97.74% purity. I had heard that Seed Ranch had changed their Nitrate, and it appears they have. They also went up substantially in price, since I last bought any. Their KNO3 comes from Haifa, Israel, and is supposed to be high grade. Given the situation in Israel, it may be a good thing to get some while the getting is good.....

[Swineherd]

I've got it calculated at 98.9353248446% pure according to the percentages listed. Now I'm wondering where I screwed up my math.

Did some fiddling to account for oxygen impurities by weight and came up with 98.43% total purity by weight. I climbed out of bed to do that because it was bothering me. And I'm sure it's still wrong. Bah

[Swineherd]

Given the situation in Israel, it may be a good thing to get some while the getting is good.....

True dat

[DoubleBuck]

i've got it calculated at 98.9353248446% pure according to the percentages listed. Now i'm wondering where i screwed up my math.

Did some fiddling to account for oxygen impurities by weight and came up with 98.43% total purity by weight. I climbed out of bed to do that because it was bothering me. And i'm sure it's still wrong. Bah

lol

[StevenDJ]

I thought some of you may get a kick out of my labels I made for my homemade blackpowder. The label wraps on two sides. I also have room to record my batch numbers.

I'm not selling (probably illegal) or giving it (probably not smart) to anyone but it just seemed proper to put a warning on the bottle.

These are 250mL bottles. My density is fairly close to 1g/cm3 for the granulated powder, so each bottle can hold 250g or a bit more than 1/2 a pound.

I am not too sure about my 'brand name', but it will do the job for now. Just for a bit of fun.

I'd love to see if anyone has done anything similar.

[StevenDJ]

I feel like I am trying to get my post count up : but here is something that some of the newcomers may find useful.

I started using a coffee grinder to crush my pucks, but found that I had to break the pucks into small chunks by hand first. This was one of the most time consuming parts of the process. I now press my pucks 70mm in diameter with around 30g of powder. They end up about 3mm thick and run through the grain mill without needing to be broken into pieces. The grain mill swallows the whole puck in seconds.

In order to crush the pucks initially, I set the gap between rollers as large as possible and run a piece of rubber between the rollers. This links the drive and the idle rollers together. Once the puck has been broken, the rubber strip is no longer needed.

I made a little wooden stand and draw to hold the grinder and catch the corned powder. The base has a flange around it so I can clamp it to the corner of the workbench in a manner that allows the handle to turn freely.

The third photo shows the 2F powder that passes 16 and is caught on 24 mesh screen. The smallest increment on the scale is a millimetre.

Using this method, I can crush and screen 400g of powder in around 15 minutes.

[Swineherd]

Nice packaging, StevenDJ! Very professional looking. Much better than the sour cream container I've been using. I also make my pucks thin enough to feed directly into my grain mill. I use spacers while pressing and end up with four 1/8" pucks per press. I can snap them in half by hand pretty easily so they'll fit in my mill. It isn't near a large as yours, it's just one that clamps to a table edge.

I may be incorrect, but my understanding is that, according to the criminal, tyrant, jack-boot ATF, it is illegal to sell or even give away any homemade black powder.

[StevenDJ]

my mill. It isn't near a large as yours, it's just one that clamps to a table edge.

I may be incorrect, but my understanding is that, according to the criminal, tyrant, jack-boot ATF, it is illegal to sell or even give away any homemade black powder.

Swineherd, the rollers in my mill are around 5-6" across. It is bigger than I need, but not too big. The little draw only just holds 400g of powder, however it is no trouble to empty it after crushing a few pucks. After the first crush and screen, it is plenty big enough.

I am sure the laws on homemade black powder are the same in all countries! Gone are the days when...

I am sure the the sour cream container works just fine, but it does feel cool to put it in some nice containers.

Want to know the saddest thing? I still don't have a black powder firearm (not including the 12ga)! I can't really afford one at present and I spent the money buying a .308 so my son could hunt deer. But I do love the process of making powder and one day I will be able to do more with it than making fireworks. I'd love a Henry single shot break action in 45-70 Govt. I still need to buy primers though!

[DoubleBuck]

StevenDJ;
Nice setups on both the storage and grinder! If you want to play, you can get a used front stuffer fairly reasonable. If you're in no hurry, you should be able to get a sweet one for 2-300 bucks. Then, you can go into the homemade caps rabbit hole!
There's a lot of people would love the Henry you speak of. Meanwhile, back at the ranch....

[Swineherd]

StevenDJ,
That's very cool you've such a keen interest! I'm glad you've a .308 for your son to hunt. I'm sure he is grateful for a father who provides for those kinds of experiences, that's a big deal.

I take it you're loading 12ga shells with your home brew? Very cool.

As for primers, I'm sure you're well aware there are more than a few ways to manufacture primers for yourself. Aardvark reloading is an excellent resource for that info.

What are the laws down under concerning manufacturing your own firearms? A smooth bore could be cobbled reasonably easily.

[StevenDJ]

Double Buck - Unfortunately, firearms are a little more expensive in Australia than in your part of the world. It will happen when I find the right one. I love break action guns and I figure that they would be the simplest to clean after firing black powder. I am constantly looking out for any of the Harrington and Richardson handy rifles particularly in the 44/45 calibers as I figure that these could become quite nice calibres for a black powder substitute. They don't seem to come up often on the 2nd hand market here, and when they do they are gone within hours. I think the good Lord either knows that the guns I have are enough, or that he has a nice one coming at the right time. Either way I'm happy.

I do like the idea of a new rabbit hole!

Swineherd, I have loaded a few 12ga shells, however it was more of an academic exercise for a bit of fun. The most cost effective method, was to dismantle a perfectly good commercial shell and replace the smokeless with my black powder. They all went bang and made a wonderful amount of white smoke! Much more fun than just blasting away with a box of commercial shells. Note, it is really difficult to open a shotshell crimp and close it back up again!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, I have considered a homemade smooth bore and I believe I have the skills, however until registered such a firearm would be HIGHLY illegal in Australia. It could be made legal if it were given a serial number by a gunsmith and registered, but you would have to find a gunsmith that didn't think you were crazy. I think many of us in this thread are probably skirting the edges of the law, but there is a line that most of us would not be willing to cross.

My black powder firearm will happen one day.

Thanks for the encouragement fellas.

[DoubleBuck]

Yes, for NOW, at least, we don't have to register or have serial numbers on Black Powder rifles, pistols, or shotguns; although almost all of them do have numbers. And, we, again, for NOW at least, don't have to use a FFL to send or receive them. We can make and have on hand 50# of BP, and can sell it, with proper licensing. We can have more, but it must be stored in a proper manner, in an approved 'bunker', with proper licensing. Someone asked the other day, if we could give it away. From what I've read, we can; as long as there are no local or State ordinances preventing doing it. How long we will have these freedoms depends on who wants to keep them. Time will tell...

[Linstrum]

MaLar, and others: I'm a chemist. I took a look at the SEED RANCH potassium nitrate label, and it is way different from what it should be from a standard chemical laboratory label for potassium nitrate because it is not given in modern chemical formula terms, as what is used in a laboratory for determining a chemical reaction. Using what is given on the label, those can't be used for figuring out anything regarding using potassium nitrate for black powder. First of all, "potash" is not K2O, to be correct it is K2CO3 aka potassium carbonate. K2O is potassium oxide, which plain and simple can NOT exist in the presence of water, where a K2O molecule reacts with a water molecule, H2O, to form two KOH molecules plus AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF HEAT. The common name for KOH is "potassium lye" aka potassium hydroxide, as opposed to just plain lye that is sodium hydroxide. Sodium hydroxide, the kind of lye you can get at hardware stores, is what you use for cleaning drains and making home made soap (fun, if you are into that kind of thing). FWIW, potassium lye makes darned good soap, too. So, in other words, there ain't a speck of K2O in that bag, and if there were, it would pose quite a hazard if it ever got wet!

So much for the useless label that is actually not all that useless, IF YOU WERE A 1930s FARMER with a sixth grade education and wanted to compare a sack of urea fertilizer with a sack of potassium nitrate fertilizer, and wanted to know how much nitrogen per dollar, err, I mean per dime you were getting. So, that's why some fertilizer bag labels give what's inside as being equivalent to something else. For me to be a chemist, I had to take botany, which covered agriculture that covered fertilizers.

Alright, about purifying potassium nitrate, or anything else that will dissolve in water, that can sometimes be pretty complex. Besides solubility, which crystal system that may cause co-crystallization problems (cubic, hexagonal, orthorhombic, icosahedron, whatever), concentration, and temperature all play a part. Potassium nitrate is one of the easiest salts to purify because of its low solubility, especially at low temperature. Look up the solubility temperature curve for potassium nitrate and compare it to something like sodium chloride, where there are big differences in solubility from 212ºF (boiling point), 150ºF, 72ºF (room temperature), 45ºF, and then 32ºF (freezing point). This is how solutions are purified on an industrial scale. Some potassium nitrate is made from sodium nitrate by dissolving potassium chloride and sodium nitrate together in water, and then slowly cooling the solution, or letting the water evaporate. Potassium nitrate is far less soluble at low temperature than sodium nitrate, so, potassium nitrate crystals form in the solution, while sodium chloride forms and stays dissolved at the lower temperature and/or higher molar concentration. Notice that this began with sodium nitrate without any potassium nitrate being present, but ended up with potassium nitrate, all of it happened while the two salts, potassium chloride and sodium nitrate were dissolved in water, and ended with potassium nitrate crystallizing forming. This reaction is how it was discovered that some particular kinds of molecules actually break apart when they dissolve in water, and the separate parts can reform into different kinds of molecules when the water evaporates.

Back in 1964, I got a 100 pound sack of agricultural grade potassium nitrate that came from Chile, where there are huge sodium nitrate deposits in the Atacama Desert. It looked like brown sugar, and was full of sand and rust flakes. So, I had to dissolve it in water and crystallize it out. It wasn't all that difficult, but took a long time. I didn't do the entire 100 pounds at once since I didn't have a large enough corrosion proof tub.

[DoubleBuck]

This is the label from (I think) my last bag of Seed Ranch KNO3.
It appears to have the same numbers; but notice above them, it says "Guaranteed Analysis 99.8% pure.
In my previous post, I had transposed the two numbers, and posted it was '98.9% pure'. I've used this for more than 5 years and it does seem to be very good Nitrate, if they have not changed it some way or other.
Thanks, Linstrum!