My homemade black powder

[dondiego]

How 'bout this Global Warming? Our high today was 6°F. With a 20-30 mph wind. Low last night was -6°F, with -28°F wind chills. A little global warming would be welcome at my house! I've burned a half rick of wood, in two days....

Well, since Al Gore had several of his Global Warming speeches frozen out by cold storms, it became Climate Change and even if it gets cold, it's your fault!

[Trapper-Jack]

Almar,
Your chart notes 1.6 density for your homemade powder and it is exceeding the velocity of Swiss by about 100 fps for the same 30 grain charge. What wood are you using, if you don't mind. I have been using a hybrid willow for my charcoal and have been pucking it with a 2" brass nipple and a 20 ton hydraulic jack. I have been getting 1.7 to 1.8 density. Usually in the lower to mid 1.7's. This is with the 75/15/10 blend. The wood is being cooked at about 550 F. until the smoke starts to decrease and then the retort is plugged off. I usually use 4.8% water to the milled batch to puck it. If I use more than 5% I get excessive bleed out around the bottom of the puck die.
I guess I'm fishing for your opinion on how you think a powder with a higher density would perform. I'm thinking that a chronograph will be on order soon.

[almar]

I'm using black willow cooked at about the same temp. It comes out brown like coco powder and under 2% ash content. My own testing showed that puck density plays a big role in velocity. I used to go for the highest possible where the pucks were dark and hard like ceramic plates but now I go for as low as possible to ensure good grain strength but not more. Around 1.6 seems to work well on my end with this charcoal. Linstrum has me thinking about trying different blends of charcoal now but what I make is quite snappy and clean enough.

[Trapper-Jack]

Thanks for your thoughts Almar. I'm out of luck here for black willow but we do have about a half dozen different kinds of other willow besides my hybrid. I'm also trying out some quaking aspen and some juniper. I also want to try out some cotton wood and poplar. I'll get after it once this weather warms up.

[LAGS]

Today I was at HF.
I found they have a sale on the double Rock Tumbler.
It was $69.95.
I got it for $54.95.
Plus I picked up a couple new belts for my other tumbler.
The replacement belts seem much stronger than the ones that come with the tumbler.

[Linstrum]

Linstrum:



Interesting food for thought, I always figured that maximizing creosote would maximize results without side effects but it seems that, (and this is more plausible) that there is a give and a take. More gas production but at a lower temperature...The fouling with my charcoal is a dark brown to grey using 75/15/10...I may try playing with the ratios to make the burn a little leaner? I tried this in the past and only looked at the numbers on the chrony but i seem to remember a very light colored fouling with a 78/10/12 mix... Its seems that a 76% mix is still quite good according to my notes:
Attachment 308433

Hi Almar, and everybody else. Well, another rabbit hole just opened up to fall down and get lost in.

The trouble with black powder is, at least for our basic 75/15/10 mix, is that there are only six basic burn rates - fine flintlock priming powder along with the standard fffffg to fg - where all six have to work in everything from the original little Philadelphia deringers, to the big impressive British .577 Express that became the .577 Nitro Express in about 1915. I might be wrong about fg being the burn rate that was used in the original Black Powder .577 Express, it may have used its own special slower burn rate propellant instead. But you get what I'm getting at, where black powder has to cover an awful lot of territory, from small-bore pistols with 1.5-inch long barrels, 10-gauge shotguns with 36-inch long barrels, to elephant guns. In contrast to this, there are perhaps somewhere around 120 kinds of modern smokeless propellants for small firearms.

So, with smokeless propellants, there are way more burn rates to choose from so that a cartridge can be more finely-tuned according to barrel length and operating pressure characteristics. I'm not saying that smokeless propellants can be used in place of black powder, - no way - just that there are more burn rates to choose from for smokeless propellant firearms, which in turn allow more efficient use of the energy contained in a particular powder charge and projectile weight, with a particular barrel bore diameter AND length. Because black powder using 75/15/10 manufactured using standardized methods (like Goex and Swiss use), the firearms we shoot cannot be quite as easily finely tuned to work as well, compared to what can be done with all the smokeless propellants available.

Moving on a bit, many of those who have been working hard on perfecting their black powder have noticed that some batches of black powder work better than others. Fortunately, good records have been kept, but like the saying goes, "the devil is in the details", where interpreting the records can be difficult. Barrel bore size, barrel length, powder charge weight, bullet weight, how much creosote from what temperature the wood was roasted at, what kind of wood, what time of year the wood was cut, how long the wood was aged, what the powder burn residue looked like, how the powder burned on a piece of paper. Every bit of this plays an important part in development!

Okay! Perhaps taking a lesson by following the example set by modern smokeless propellants, where there are perhaps 35 different burns rates in general from somewhere around 120 different kinds of smokeless propellants currently available, trying to make the perfect black powder in six burn rates (flintlock priming powder, fffffg, ffffg, fffg, ffg, and fg) that work perfectly in everything may not be a possibility. Of course the black powder will get the bullet out of the barrel, but in many applications the powder will burn dirty, leave a lot of residue, deliver low velocity, or develop high pressure problems. In other words, there will always be some kind of problem with whatever powder gets made when it is used for everything. In times past, there was "sporting powder" that fit a specific application, and it was made to get around poor performance problems.

So, if you are shooting the big British Black Powder .577 Express with a 750 grain bullet, the black powder you need will quite likely be very different from what will work best in the Colt model 1851 revolver in .36 caliber. This is because from the evidence from reading many posts, there is no "one size fits all" black powder formula that works perfectly in everything, where everybody's black powder can be made from Alder Buckthorn or sassafras roasted at exactly 600º F for one hour, ash at no more than 2%, milled for maybe 16 hours with such-and-such size hard cast lead balls, and pressed into pucks with a density of 1.65.

It is beginning to look like the variables might be the kind of wood, how much dead-burned charcoal, if any, is mixed in with high-creosote charcoal, along with fine-tuning the parts of charcoal used in the mix. From a chemical mixture standpoint, leave the potassium nitrate pretty much alone and change the amount of charcoal, because if the potassium nitrate gets changed, then so does the sulfur. This is because the main purpose of the sulfur is to combine with potassium residue, so don't mess with the ratio of potassium nitrate to sulfur too much. Sulfur does double-duty.

Alright, that's enough for now.

[indian joe]

Hi Almar, and everybody else. Well, another rabbit hole just opened up to fall down and get lost in.

The trouble with black powder is, at least for our basic 75/15/10 mix, is that there are only six basic burn rates - fine flintlock priming powder along with the standard fffffg to fg - where all six have to work in everything from the original little Philadelphia deringers, to the big impressive British .577 Express that became the .577 Nitro Express in about 1915. I might be wrong about fg being the burn rate that was used in the original Black Powder .577 Express, it may have used its own special slower burn rate propellant instead. But you get what I'm getting at, where black powder has to cover an awful lot of territory, from small-bore pistols with 1.5-inch long barrels, 10-gauge shotguns with 36-inch long barrels, to elephant guns. In contrast to this, there are perhaps somewhere around 120 kinds of modern smokeless propellants for small firearms.

So, with smokeless propellants, there are way more burn rates to choose from so that a cartridge can be more finely-tuned according to barrel length and operating pressure characteristics. I'm not saying that smokeless propellants can be used in place of black powder, - no way - just that there are more burn rates to choose from for smokeless propellant firearms, which in turn allow more efficient use of the energy contained in a particular powder charge and projectile weight, with a particular barrel bore diameter AND length. Because black powder using 75/15/10 manufactured using standardized methods (like Goex and Swiss use), the firearms we shoot cannot be quite as easily finely tuned to work as well, compared to what can be done with all the smokeless propellants available.

Moving on a bit, many of those who have been working hard on perfecting their black powder have noticed that some batches of black powder work better than others. Fortunately, good records have been kept, but like the saying goes, "the devil is in the details", where interpreting the records can be difficult. Barrel bore size, barrel length, powder charge weight, bullet weight, how much creosote from what temperature the wood was roasted at, what kind of wood, what time of year the wood was cut, how long the wood was aged, what the powder burn residue looked like, how the powder burned on a piece of paper. Every bit of this plays an important part in development!

Okay! Perhaps taking a lesson by following the example set by modern smokeless propellants, where there are perhaps 35 different burns rates in general from somewhere around 120 different kinds of smokeless propellants currently available, trying to make the perfect black powder in six burn rates (flintlock priming powder, fffffg, ffffg, fffg, ffg, and fg) that work perfectly in everything may not be a possibility. Of course the black powder will get the bullet out of the barrel, but in many applications the powder will burn dirty, leave a lot of residue, deliver low velocity, or develop high pressure problems. In other words, there will always be some kind of problem with whatever powder gets made when it is used for everything. In times past, there was "sporting powder" that fit a specific application, and it was made to get around poor performance problems.

So, if you are shooting the big British Black Powder .577 Express with a 750 grain bullet, the black powder you need will quite likely be very different from what will work best in the Colt model 1851 revolver in .36 caliber. This is because from the evidence from reading many posts, there is no "one size fits all" black powder formula that works perfectly in everything, where everybody's black powder can be made from Alder Buckthorn or sassafras roasted at exactly 600º F for one hour, ash at no more than 2%, milled for maybe 16 hours with such-and-such size hard cast lead balls, and pressed into pucks with a density of 1.65.

It is beginning to look like the variables might be the kind of wood, how much dead-burned charcoal, if any, is mixed in with high-creosote charcoal, along with fine-tuning the parts of charcoal used in the mix. From a chemical mixture standpoint, leave the potassium nitrate pretty much alone and change the amount of charcoal, because if the potassium nitrate gets changed, then so does the sulfur. This is because the main purpose of the sulfur is to combine with potassium residue, so don't mess with the ratio of potassium nitrate to sulfur too much. Sulfur does double-duty.

Alright, that's enough for now.

OR
we could take the simple track
I read a lot before I started and I think I am good at culling the chaff from the grain when I read stuff. "Fly" was active on the forum those days and I settled on him as the guru to follow - otherwise too much info and we running hither and yon..
1) need a ball mill cant do it without
2) seems like willow is a good charcoal (if not the best) - didnt have black willow but we got hybrid willow growing on the farm dam - so cut some deadfall branches only taking sound wood (no punky stuff) - split it small and fill all the tin cans we can find - set up an old 50 gal incinerator drum to cook in - hardwood fire down below - shelf at the first ring to support the burn cans - a bloke showed me how to make good charcloth for flint and steel firelighting so that seemed the way to go, yank em off the fire when the smoke from the vent hole reduces just a little - got no idea of temperature here at all just follerin his instructions for charcloth. -- oops some of these sticks is a tad underdone - so if they will snap in my hand they done and go to the grinder - cant break em - they get cooked more. So now we got charcoal.
3) 99% greenhouse grade soluble KNO3 at the fertiliser shop and 99% pure yellow sulphur we got decent quality ingredients
4) cooked some corn starch for dextrin - that was a bit of an adventure - second lot was good stuff.

I have a cheap timer for the mill shuts it off at eight hours - usually check it for clumping at about three hour mark.
We fiddled around with a couple of small batches to get the hang of it then went in and did it - screened powder only for the first lot - it worked good in the front loaders - the process was easy - I hauled my butt a thousand miles to a major competition with that stuff and came home with several prizes - grinning like the cat that got the cream I tell ya - we had to recut our measures for the guns about 25% more VOLUME of this screened stuff needed to get the effect but it worked good and shot so clean compared to what we had been using. I was hooked

then one of the boys on this forum says - (not directed at me just a general comment) "yeah thats fine, we can make it good enough for front loaders and short range but kidding ourselves if we think we can use it for a long range target match" .....just the challenge I needed !!!!

So more reading - build a press - dies - learn about pressing and grinding pucks - after a couple of false starts with water alcohol mixes and too much water in the mix I got a system figured out and made good consistent quality stuff . I have got cartridge gun velocity right up at old timey factory levels, chronograph Extreme Spread numbers in single digit territory, and barrel fouling less than any commercial powder I have shot in years. Whats not to like

I dont have the patience, nor the interest, in experimenting that Almar and Lindstrum have. just pay attention to what they post and maybe some of it fits Yeah I will try a couple of loads of a new batch just to be sure I didnt make a big stuff up somewhere along the way
Heres how I deal with batch variability (dont have batches) - make a heap of the stuff! ten or twenty pound at the time - then I grade it for size - very diligent with screening I am - I also bring in any stored powder from a previous batch - add it to the mix and I blend the lot - out in the yard with ten or twelve pound of FFFg in a big stainless pot stirring with a wooden spoon - super careful with this part of the process. Once that is done its packed away in airtight containers and we have enough powder for the year's shooting

So seat of the pants works too - the caveat - quality ingredients, pay attention to the process - cant cut corners and expect a decent result - mix - mix -mix -mix

[HWooldridge]

I don’t want to experiment forever with charcoal but whatever I select has to be something local since we don’t have willow or alder in this area. My most recent and “best” seems to be wild grape wood that was milled for 12 hours. I milled and checked burn rate every couple hours, and the speed made a quantum leap between 10 and 12 hours - I then ran until 15 hours but no major improvement after. I’m going to puck this batch and test it against Goex using a chronograph. At this stage in milling, the grape batch also burns pretty cleanly so I’m cautiously optimistic.

Aside from the ash test, it would be nice if there were an easy way to measure calorific content in a particular charcoal but maybe the Wichita Buggy tests are our best point of reference for those of us who primarily want to shoot the end product without a bunch of testing.

Indian Joe, you might qualify your comments that a big ball mill seems to yield better results than the small rock tumblers, or at least are much faster.

[Brimstone]

Welcome to my world. I swear you are listening in on my conversations with my cousin.
We spoke of this yesterday. Had a 3 hour discussion on wood species char burn rates, temperature of burn, lean vs rich blend ratio, gas generation and fine tuning with press density and grade.

Then the creosote talk, that has been the majority of the discussion as we're confident in the ability to tune the powder to specific rifles and bullet weight and use.

[indian joe]

Welcome to my world. I swear you are listening in on my conversations with my cousin.
We spoke of this yesterday. Had a 3 hour discussion on wood species char burn rates, temperature of burn, lean vs rich blend ratio, gas generation and fine tuning with press density and grade.

Then the creosote talk, that has been the majority of the discussion as

we're confident in the ability to tune the powder to specific rifles and bullet weight and use.

yre a mile ahead of me !...... I'm listening but also happy with where I am at. I like simple...................

[Dieselhorses]

I can’t keep up with you all!

Still trying to find the perfect barrel to cook charcoal. Paint cans don’t cut it. I have an pressure cooker from the 40’s I’m gonna try. Going to try to use sand to fill all air gaps. I’m using a standard turkey fryer burner on full blast.

Happy holidays!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brimstone]

The rabbit hole. I don't blame anyone for staying practical rather than dabbling in the theoretical aspect of this hobby.

I had never intended to get this in depth with it but here I am. I love it.


Linstrum spoke about the creosote assay. I'm working on it. I'm pretty sure I have a solution to keeping atmosphere out. A tin will not do.

I see now why some struggle to make charcoal without white dusty ash on the edges and corners, they're nuking the retort in the fire pit to or near to the point of failure. Now I've done it too. Can't say he didn't warn me. I figured my pellet tins were solid enough. Not for glowing red hot heat they aren't.

I have to fabricate a specialized heavy duty retort for this. I have a design in mind. If it works, I'll post results.




Just saw Diesels post.

Still trying to find the perfect barrel to cook charcoal. Paint cans don’t cut it. I have an pressure cooker from the 40’s I’m gonna try. Going to try to use sand to fill all air gaps. I’m using a standard turkey fryer burner on full blast.

If you have a gas grill, you might try using it. I'm using a cheap Walmart 3 burner grill that cost $110 after taxes.

I did a lot of specialized modding for tight control. It isn't needed for basic work. You probably won't warp or burn through your paint cans using a gas grill.

[Milky Duck]

I can’t keep up with you all!

Still trying to find the perfect barrel to cook charcoal. Paint cans don’t cut it. I have an pressure cooker from the 40’s I’m gonna try. Going to try to use sand to fill all air gaps. I’m using a standard turkey fryer burner on full blast.

Happy holidays!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

try a simple coffee tin with a metal press in lid....cut small hole in lid....about finger size...cook tin full of sticks on BBQ til lthe smoke/steam stops coming out. tooo easy.

[indian joe]

The rabbit hole. I don't blame anyone for staying practical rather than dabbling in the theoretical aspect of this hobby.

I had never intended to get this in depth with it but here I am. I love it.

some seat of the pants observations below (take em or no )


Linstrum spoke about the creosote assay. I'm working on it. I'm pretty sure I have a solution to keeping atmosphere out. A tin will not do.
Paint can works fine - the trick here is cooling the coal quick (real quick) once its done - the grey ash is from hot charcoal getting oxygen while its still hot enough to combust - doesnt happen in the fire cuz the oxygen supply in there is limited but soon as you haul the can out of the fire there is a ready supply of oxygen and if it stays hot the sticks will set alight in the can. I make my charcoal in the winter - a cold frosty morning is ideal - haul those cans out of the fire onto almost frozen ground with cold damp air about - the stuff is cooled before it can catch fire.

I see now why some struggle to make charcoal without white dusty ash on the edges and corners, they're nuking the retort in the fire pit to or near to the point of failure. Now I've done it too. Can't say he didn't warn me. I figured my pellet tins were solid enough. Not for glowing red hot heat they aren't.
do not want your container red hot EVER no sir - thats too hot!!!

I have to fabricate a specialized heavy duty retort for this. I have a design in mind. If it works, I'll post results.




Just saw Diesels post.

If you have a gas grill, you might try using it. I'm using a cheap Walmart 3 burner grill that cost $110 after taxes.

I did a lot of specialized modding for tight control. It isn't needed for basic work. You probably won't warp or burn through your paint cans using a gas grill.

Gas burner - heat is really concentrated - too much so for success with thin cans I reckon I like my old fuel drum incinerator, wood fire underneath, the flames will lick up around the outside of the containers.
I put a temporary lid over the top (of the incinerator), leave the handles on the paint cans so can juggle them around in the fire, rake the fire out underneath if it gets too lively or stoke a bit more wood in - whatever it needs. I watch the smoke like a hawk from the vent holes in the cans I do NOT burn the vent smoke, the second that smoke column starts to reduce - yank em out and cool em

[indian joe]

try a simple coffee tin with a metal press in lid....cut small hole in lid....about finger size...cook tin full of sticks on BBQ til lthe smoke/steam stops coming out. tooo easy.

Stop while the smoke is still coming out just when it reduces a little - makes browner charcoal - I reckon its got more energy in it
If the sticks will snap clean (might take two hands) its done enough - dont want it soft enough to break easy or crumble.

[HWooldridge]

Stop while the smoke is still coming out just when it reduces a little - makes browner charcoal - I reckon its got more energy in it
If the sticks will snap clean (might take two hands) its done enough - dont want it soft enough to break easy or crumble.

^^^This is what I do - while using paint cans, but I only punch a single small hole in the lid. I usually just build a wood fire in the corral and set the can(s) in the middle of the blaze, then I sit and drink a beer while I watch the exhaust. I’ve never burned a batch to ashes.

[LAGS]

On my paint can retorts ,
I usually punch three 16 penny nail holes in the lid.
That way you have more venting for the smoke.
As the smoke starts to reduce , I plug some of the holes with a nail.
Also with the three holes , you aren't restricting things if the tar in the smoke builds up and plugs the hole.
On some wood like Balsa , I start off with two of the holes plugged with nails.
Then I have other holes ready to use if needed.

[Brimstone]

Allow me to clarify a few things.

I tightly control my charring process, creosote preservation is the absolute goal here. My system: Gas grill, steel baffle to redirect gas flow around the periphery. Twin paint can retorts. 3/8" copper exhaust lines vent volatile gas outside the grill. 4 thermometers for sanity as I do not fully trust them to stay calibrated. 1 laser thermometer and for precision, 1 long thermocouple digital thermometer that I use to spot check around the system as well as insert into the 3/8" tube vents to check internal temp.

It works in repetition. I have no issues charring.

Reference Linstrum's post #6500 on page 325. He mentions creosote assay. I had mentioned that my intent is to at some point in the future perform a creosote assay on all of my preferred charcoals. The idea is simple. The low temp char doesn't just make your powder fouling softer, it has the benefit of offsetting the carbon and mineral (ash) content of the charcoal thus improving it in this respect.
How significant is this offset? Does more creosote equal even softer fouling? Linstrum goes on in post #6506 to mention theories and questions I too share. Goldilocks zone of balance and performance ect.

Anyhow, in post #6500 he states that a tin or can will not hold up to the intense temperatures of a full on volatile burnout. In defiance of this, I had hoped that my pellet smoker tin (made for heat) would hold up. So I plugged the 8 vent holes with cheap screws and nuts, took a weight of charcoal then added it to the tin, buried it under a pile of lump charcoal and lit it with the weed burner.

30 minutes of glowing red hot will burn off creosote. The yard smelled like a chimney fire as the surplus creosote burned out of the charcoal within the tin. Yes the sample produced for a few minutes a quite strong scent. As this was happening the gas escaping around the joint of the lid was burning as one might expect.

Again, this isn't making charcoal. It's deliberately over cooking a sample of already charred (590F) charcoal for the test.


It was after seeing the warped tin and ashed over charcoal that it dawned on me, guys who have had paint cans fail or get ash in their charcoal when using a fire pit must have over heated their can much the same way I did the pellet tin.

BTW burning off the creosote doesn't make "cleaner burning" powder. The lack of creosote offset increases ash content. Makes it burn hotter and completely dry. We know this for a fact, we just don't have numbers and percentages attached to it yet.

[indian joe]

Allow me to clarify a few things.

I tightly control my charring process, creosote preservation is the absolute goal here. My system: Gas grill, steel baffle to redirect gas flow around the periphery. Twin paint can retorts. 3/8" copper exhaust lines vent volatile gas outside the grill. 4 thermometers for sanity as I do not fully trust them to stay calibrated. 1 laser thermometer and for precision, 1 long thermocouple digital thermometer that I use to spot check around the system as well as insert into the 3/8" tube vents to check internal temp.

It works in repetition. I have no issues charring.

Reference Linstrum's post #6500 on page 325. He mentions creosote assay. I had mentioned that my intent is to at some point in the future perform a creosote assay on all of my preferred charcoals. The idea is simple. The low temp char doesn't just make your powder fouling softer, it has the benefit of offsetting the carbon and mineral (ash) content of the charcoal thus improving it in this respect.
How significant is this offset? Does more creosote equal even softer fouling? Linstrum goes on in post #6506 to mention theories and questions I too share. Goldilocks zone of balance and performance ect.

Anyhow, in post #6500 he states that a tin or can will not hold up to the intense temperatures of a full on volatile burnout. In defiance of this, I had hoped that my pellet smoker tin (made for heat) would hold up. So I plugged the 8 vent holes with cheap screws and nuts, took a weight of charcoal then added it to the tin, buried it under a pile of lump charcoal and lit it with the weed burner.

30 minutes of glowing red hot will burn off creosote. The yard smelled like a chimney fire as the surplus creosote burned out of the charcoal within the tin. Yes the sample produced for a few minutes a quite strong scent. As this was happening the gas escaping around the joint of the lid was burning as one might expect.

Again, this isn't making charcoal. It's deliberately over cooking a sample of already charred (590F) charcoal for the test.


It was after seeing the warped tin and ashed over charcoal that it dawned on me, guys who have had paint cans fail or get ash in their charcoal when using a fire pit must have over heated their can much the same way I did the pellet tin.

BTW burning off the creosote doesn't make "cleaner burning" powder. The lack of creosote offset increases ash content. Makes it burn hotter and completely dry. We know this for a fact, we just don't have numbers and percentages attached to it yet.

So your science agrees with my cooler burn, only part done, seat of the pants approach?????

[almar]

If the paint can didn't hold up to the cook, it certainly was too hot at least on the outside of the can. The inside is another story. It takes time for the heat to permeate into the can. But the thing is, if the temperature differential between what you want the charcoal to cook at and what heat you actually apply is to great, the heat will transfer quickly but will overcook the wood on the outer edges of the can. It like cooking a piece of meat on the BBQ, low and slow will cook more evenly. This is one of the reasons i made that electric kiln, it delivers an exact temperature.