I think this one would have been a far better choice than the Harbor Freight. (And I have both of them, in addition to my treadmill converted into tumble duty.)
https://www.amazon.com/Frankford-Ars...s%2C439&sr=8-3
Vettepilot
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I think this one would have been a far better choice than the Harbor Freight. (And I have both of them, in addition to my treadmill converted into tumble duty.)
https://www.amazon.com/Frankford-Ars...s%2C439&sr=8-3
Vettepilot
"Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)
I don't really know if it can spark, but you never see it recommended...Originally Posted by dondiego
Vettepilot
"Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)
304 and 316 are spark resistant. A lot of pyro guys use them. I'm only going to use them for a very short period of time with all ingredients mixed. And if I end up not feeling good about doing that, I'll do the combined step for a very short period with my lead media.
I wouldn't use it for long milling sessions of all the ingredients without it being a remote start and stop and having it far away from everything.
Those look nice, but I actually like the size of the HF ones. I like being able to run smaller amounts for testing.
Maybe someday I'll turn one of my old ceiling fan motors into a 6" PVC mill after I move to the middle of nowhere
Careful there... I would almost bet a ceiling fan motor would have nowhere near the torque required for a tumbler.
I was just perusing that Goex data. Curious; for shotgun cartridge, everything under 10 gauge calls for triple fg, yet for muzzleloading shotgun, it's all double fg, for all gauges/loads. Another oddity, for 45-70, all their loads call for single fg!? I have to wonder if that's a misprint, however unlikely that might be...
https://goexpowder.com/resources/load-charts/
Vettepilot
"Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)
Well, looking into that question further, apparently some sources do recommend 1 fg for the 45-70. Never knew that, even though I've done a small, preliminary amount of studying BP in that cartridge because of considering loading it myself.
Vettepilot
"Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)
HighUintas;
You know, I've wondered about smoke, several times, myself. I don't know the answer to that. I tried the chrono further away, but only three feet or so. I noticed the other day, I found only two patches beside the chrono. The rest were 5-10 feet past it. The grass was too deep and hiding them, but we mowed hay, the last three days and started baling today. I'll get the area around the table mowed and weedeated and should be able to find patches very easy. So far, I have been able to keep the bullet path around 4 inches above the eyes. When I started out, I was getting an error, about two out of five shots, and sometimes more. I moved it closer, thinking the patch might be getting timed, after the bullet. I have never downloaded the 'set' or 'group' of shots, just recorded what the display reads. Depending on it's reset speed, I may have timed several patches, when I was getting readings like '34', or '48'. I never thought about downloading the info, but there may have been an actual bullet speed recorded, and all I saw on the display was the patch speed. Next time I use it, I will hook my phone to it, and record the speeds and see what it says. Every so often I would get a weird slow speed come up between shots, and think it was possibly tree branches movement picked up, above it. That was when I decided to cover the shades with a tee shirt. If it was giving me accurate readings, it read about 90% of the shots I made.
I thought that 'comp.' stood for compression, but didn't know how. I see now. You're using a casing. Which brings up another question. Do you have to buy primed, empty cases, or can you punch a new primer in them? Or, is the rifle made for smokeless and you are experimenting with black charges?
https://www.greenwoodmagnetics.com/r...ainless-steel/
The use of lead, stainless, brass, aluminum, glass and ceramic balls have been discussed previously, in this thread. Each has a trade off. Nothing works in a mill on powder any better than lead. But, it has it's own trade offs, too. Personally, I would not fear using 304 Stainless balls, in a mill, with proper safety precautions. I guess that has to be an individual choice, of an informed decision; and how long a person wants to run a mill, to make good powder.
I use 60 caliber lead balls, and have made more than ten pounds of powder with them. I measured five random balls and the smallest was .585". I use 50 of them per drum. The calculator says new, they weighed 21.0 grams each. At .585", they weigh 19.7 grams each. That is a loss of 1.3 grams per ball, times 100 balls= 130 grams lead weight, in say 12 pounds of powder. Rounded off, that equals 11 grams of lead, in each pound of powder. I shoot an average 60 grain charge. Rounded off, that is 117 shots per pound of powder. That means rounded off, every 11 shots, I burn a gram of lead. Never thought about it that way, but I can see where that could be a health concern, depending on the amount of shooting one does and the amount of smoke one breathes. And, what happens to that lead, when it is surrounded by burning powder? I would assume it turns to lead oxides, which are pretty poisonous.
One of the links HighUintas submitted is here: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a150455.pdf
It concludes this:
The temperature of the gas stream was measured by the sodium line reversal
technique by Harris, and he reported a value of 1549° ± 25 C for burning
black powder in air at one atmosphere.
1549° C. = 2820° F. Lead melts at 621.5° F. 304 Stainless Steel melts at 2550-2650° F. At black powder combustion temps, lead is subject to four times it's melting point. Stainless has barely melted.
So, why doesn't black powder burn up a patch and melt a ball, or bullet? It travels ahead of the flame front and the time exposed is minute. So, do minute particles of lead, mixed in with the powder burn up, melt or turn to gas? That is more of that dang physics and I can't have the answer. I know there would be no where near 11 grams of Stainless, per pound of powder, were it used as a mill media. Just a point or two to ponder. The lead may not have time to melt, either. Which makes it much easier to not worry about....
Doublebuck,
I'm actually shooting a Winchester 1886 45-90, but it's a new manufacturer, not an original. So, I was lucky to find some brass for it a couple months ago and just reload them. Unfortunately, I'm bound to primers. So, I'm going to have to learn to make primers, or get myself a muzzleloader! I certainly plan to do that the next time I purchase a rifle. it actually does say on the barrel that it's for black powder only, but that's just because the 4590 isn't a saami cartridge in there is very little smokeless data out there. I started out shooting smokeless, just to get the hang of shooting cast bullets, but after I tried black powder I decided I may never be going back. Then, after I started making some black powder, I decided I definitely was never going back to smokeless with this gun!
You have some good points on whether or not lead actually burns when firing your powder. I think that it probably does due to its small surface area, so long as there's not some sort of coating on the outside of the particle of lead that prevents it from combusting. I would bet those lead particles are pretty small. I'm not that concerned with the smoke. My main concern lies with the powder dust. I work on my powder in a corner of my garage, and while my area is kept clean and dust free, there's no way to keep all of that powder residue from getting outside that work area.. on my clothes, hands, etc. I also load my cartridges in the kitchen, so that I can visit with my family while I spend time on my hobbies. I can contain any lead from the bullets fairly easily, but when charging my cases the powder dust tends to spread out on the table a little bit.. .Considering I'll have a baby girl joining me within the next 3 to 4 days I want to make sure I'm not spreading lead dust throughout my garage and house. I'm also not great at wearing a respirator when I'm working on making the powder. So my choice to not use lead media is only to prevent having it spread on touch surfaces where my family is likely to pick it up.I think I've done a pretty dang good job of keeping it contained so far, but I think the minute quantities that are likely getting left behind will eventually build up and be a problem.
I don't know what the hardness of copper pipe would be in BHN units, but it's possible that my heat treated lead is powdering off a lot of the copper and that is causing my 130g to 136g weight gain when milling. But, it looks like the exposed lead is very worn on the cylinders, so I think it's just as much or more lead than copper. Maybe lead balls are better than the lead/copper cylinders due to their different hardness levels.
Last edited by HighUintas; 06-15-2021 at 10:32 AM.
HighUintas;
Absolutely. I agree with you, on the dust. I do about like you described in my well house. The other day, with the new puck buster I'm using, I noticed I could smell powder and sure enough, I had black boogers starting up, so I wore a mask, during the busting and sifting process. When I shoot, I love to smell the smoke, but have been holding my breath, if the cloud hangs right with me, like it did the other day. In fact, I would hold my breath and walk out of the smoke.
I worked around H2S gas, in the natural gas industry, and I don't know how much is generated on a shot, but a good breath of it will kill you graveyard dead, in seconds. I've thought about the lead dust, since I made the first batch of powder and it gained weight. I pulled my mics out and saw right away, my weight gain was due to ball wear. I have said, that my next balls, I would make with hardened lead. In fact, I have a bunch that I molded and saw they weren't pure lead, and saved them back. I have no clue, if they will drastically slow the wear, but I'm thinking a gram of lead, every 11 shots adds pretty substantially; if nothing else, to the 'dirtiness' of the powder. I've thought about using the copper cylinders, and may give that a shot, if other guys have great success with them.
Lastly, I have also thought that our powder process is making dry powder, wetting it and then drying it again. It seems like there might be a great advantage, to milling powder in a slurry, instead of dry. It would be harder to ignite; no dust; shorter mill times; less media wear; and remove one step from the process. It might be slightly more messy, but that mess would be a LOT easier to contain, too. No dust until the last step would be a good thing. I've been going to give that a try and I may just do that, on my next batch. If anyone has tried it, or heard of it being tried, I would love to hear input on it.
Well, I am back in the puck making. Blew out the uprights on my 6 ton HF press. No help from HF. Don't carry them as parts and could not find my receipt, so no help. Got some steel( heavier duty) and made my own. And since I had the tools out, shaped a patch knife blade for a friends present. He is wrong handed so the grind is set up for that.
swamp
There is no problem so great, that it cannot be solved by the proper application of high explosives.
Since everyone is worried about lead balls making lead dust in your powder.
I think I will try taking the tumbler balls and Powder Coating them and see if they hold up to tumbling.
My lead Boolits pass the Hammer Test and the coating doesn't peel off.
The tumbler balls I use are cast from Monotype.
They are very hard and don't seem to dent up much when I mill my powder.
I can shake and bake the lead balls several times to get a real thick coating and just bake them in one of my toaster ovens.
Hay,
It seems like a Cheap Fix that almost any of you can do without major expense or time.
I already do tumble all of my cast round balls to make them completely round with no sprue.
Guys at the range mistake them for swedged round balls.
LAGS;
That may be a winning idea! That powder coating is some tuff stuff. I've seen race car frames and cages powder coated and take a tremendous hit, and the coating hangs in there. I've seen it crack, and that is how you can tell if a frame has been bent, but usually, a crack is all they get. Let us know how that turns out! That may be the next thing... haha
Swamp;
There you go! Sounds like you got 'er done! I bet your buddy will be proud, too!
I pressed the last three 1/2 ounce pucks out of the fines off the Paulownia. They came out like a brick and as soon as they came out of the press, I broke them into smaller pieces and have it all drying, on the dash of my pickup. I have an expensive pulp thermometer in the air conditioner vent, that was in the shade and read 146°, when I started the drying. That shouldn't take long. This 'dry' pressing makes grains that are hard as nails. I'm impressed at how hard they are. The last teaspoon had been ground umpteen times, and I had to grind it four times, to pass the first screen. This 94°, 36% humidity has made quick work out of the drying process, for sure.
Tomorrow I will cast some new lead or monotype balls to powder coat.
I don't want to use the old tumbling balls that might be impregnated with powder.
You have to bake the powder coat on the balls.
So just to be safe , I will start with new material.
Powder coating the new balls won't take very long.
Heck.
I might just try tumbling some of the three chemicals for my powder with some 125 gr 9mm Boolits I cast and coated last week.
But I feel the round balls will do a better job milling powder than will some odd shaped slugs.
That is why I have not used lead filled copper pipe or old lead filled brass casings to mill my powder.
My local HF always sends me an email receipt, which is a lot easier to save and keep up with.
Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional.
The lead balls are cast and almost ready to come out of my toaster oven.
I cast the new balls out of WW's since I couldn't find my stash of monotype.
I used a .535 mold since I couldn't find my .600 lee mold.
I powder coated the balls by the shake and bake method Twice.
When the balls cool down , I will put them in my HF single tumbler and let them tumble all night.
I want to see how the balls themselves hold up on their own first.
The only reservation I have about milling with powder coated balls is ,
Powder coat is Plastic.
I was wondering if that plastic tumbling will create Static, and that would make some kind of sparks.
But a lot of you use ball mills made out of PVC.
So I don't think Static electricity is any kind of problem.
Are we gonna be any safer inhaling pulverised plastic powder coat?
That is why I want to tumble the coated balls and see if they pulverize at all.
It will be easy to tell if they do because they will leave Blue Color in the potassium nitrate when I mill that.
Sort of like the grey dust found in it when I use uncoated lead balls to mill with.
I have to do the tumbling at night because it is 112 degrees here so far.
It is supposed to be 115 to 117 a little later.
Won't be much cooler tonight!! OMG--> This heat wave in JUNE; I don't even want to think about July and August here...
I'm thinking Zinc media is looking better and better due to it's hardness. I've just finished reading "Never for the want of Powder" about making powder during the civil war. Apparently they used bronze or brass balls for any tumbling they did. Our copper encased lead media is very efficient, but the hard/sharp copper edges might gouge out lead?
Vettepilot
"Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)
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