My homemade black powder

[DoubleBuck]

I'm not sure I've ever seen it in the wild but they have a somewhat unique leaf structure. Could you see and leftover leaves on the ground?

I'm embarrassed to say, but I was looking at the 8 deer I spooked up, and didn't think about leaves, until after I had left. I'll have to run by again and see if there are any identifiable.

Dondiego;
I actually did test some a few years ago, and it was okay but it was dirty. I had the same results with Wisteria and Castor Bean plants. Castor Bean looks like it would be fantastic, but the test I made was exceptionally dirty.
Edit; there a few different Sumac's and the one I tested we call Poison Sumac. Not sure that is the proper name, but the seeds are supposed to be poison and they dry red. The leaves are also streaked with red.

[HamGunner]

Hey Guys;
My wife found this stand of trees, and she thinks they are Tree Of Heaven. I had to cut the pictures by two thirds to upload them here, so I hope you can see them.
If anyone can tell that they for sure are or are not TOH, I would appreciate a kick back.
I cut some of the bark and to me, they didn't stink all that bad, but the sap is also headed down.

I took a picture of your picture with my plant ID app and it's result says that it is Scarlet sumac, Vinegar-tree, White sumac, Upland sumac, or Vinegar-tree.

But just one picture of a trees bark has been wrong on several occasions in my experience with this App. It is normally very accurate with pictures of the leaves.

I also found this:


"How to Identify Poison Sumac



Poison sumac is a small tree that grows to about 30 feet tall (that’s about three times as tall as your average Christmas tree). It has pinnate leaves, like a fern’s leaf or a feather. Each pinnate leaf has 9 to 13 leaflets on it, which are stationed opposite each other.

The green leaves are shaped like pointy, tapered ovals and may have peachlike fuzz on the underside. The stems of the leaf are reddish, but the bark of the rest of the plant is greyish.

Poison sumac has berry-like fruits that grow in loose clusters. They are white and each is 4-5 millimeters across.

Poison sumac has many lookalikes that are also in the sumac family. Let’s break down the lookalikes and how to tell which sumac you’re looking at:

Staghorn sumac has similar leaf arrangement to poison sumac but it has fuzzy fruit and stems. The fruits are generally red.

Smooth sumac has smooth stems, like poison sumac. However, its berries grow in dense clustered spikes rather than the looser arrangement found in poison sumac.

Shining sumac is easily identified by its grooved stems between the leaflets. This stem configuration is quite distinctive once you notice it – it looks like it has been given grooves. Poison sumac has smooth, round stems.

Tree of Heaven (not a sumac at all) has leaves with notches around the base, while poison sumac has smooth leaves. Tree of Heaven also does not produce berry clusters like the sumacs."

I have made tea many times in the fall from the ripe red berries of the Staghorn Sumac. When ripe, Staghorn Sumac has mostly a reddish purple leaf. The tea has a really tart flavor, but actually not all that bad a flavor.

Poison Sumac should have white berries.

[DoubleBuck]

Ham;
Thanks and I ran back over before dark and grabbed these two. Had to wet them and gently spread them out; then put a pane of glass over them.

[HamGunner]

My plant app could not ID this picture. Perhaps someone else can help with the ID.

Whatever you have there, it apparently grows really fast. Might be worth a try to see how it performs. Likely can get a better chance to ID it once it sprouts leaves this Spring.

[DoubleBuck]

Ham;
I bet what I have always called Poison Sumac is actually Staghorn Sumac. It definitely has red berries and the leaves are bright red in the fall. I have a few in the fields, and it will grow about head high over the summer.
Even though I thought it was poison, I have tasted the berries. They have a tart sweet flavor, but I spit it out, to avoid them killing me. haha
If they are poison, birds must be immune. They eat them.

[HighUintas]

Ham;
I bet what I have always called Poison Sumac is actually Staghorn Sumac. It definitely has red berries and the leaves are bright red in the fall. I have a few in the fields, and it will grow about head high over the summer.
Even though I thought it was poison, I have tasted the berries. They have a tart sweet flavor, but I spit it out, to avoid them killing me. haha
If they are poison, birds must be immune. They eat them.

DB, In your leaf picture it's hard to tell.... Are the edges serrated all the way from stem to tip? If so, it's not TOH. TOH leaves have a little point near the stem and then they're smooth to the tip. But, your description of the inside of the branches sounds like TOH.

Also, as to the red berries you tasted and thought were poison sumac. Do those berries grow in large clump that is cone shaped and are the berries almost like a seed with a slightly fuzzy red coat? If so, that's staghorn sumac or a similar variety. You can make "indian lemonade" from the berries.

[DoubleBuck]

HighUintas;
The picture is deceiving and no, the leaves are not serrated to the tip. The wrinkles on the dry leaves had not flattened completely out, and they left shadows on the edges which look like serrations on the edges in the pictures. I checked them after they dried flat and have been doing some research on the leaves and found several good pictures of both the bark and leaves, along with a couple of videos. I am nearly convinced they are TOH. My wife's hobby and passion is plants and she is also convinced they are TOH. I just wish I had got samples two months ago, when she first told me about them, and where they are. Also, the field is not all TOH, like I first thought. They are on the edges of a large grove of Black Locust trees. I know them because I have several around my house. Both of them grow like weeds and spread like wild fire. But, there is still a large grove of the TOH.
I couldn't stand it, and for the last couple of hours I've been making brown charcoal of them, and made a nice small batch which will make 443 grams of powder.
I assayed the charcoal and 10 grains of charcoal made exactly .2 grains of ash. 2% ash is excellent! I'm excited to make the powder. The charcoal is being milled right now. I may be going back and loading up on the free wood!
The Sumac is exactly as you described and after looking up it and Poison Sumac, I am now convinced the ones I have are the staghorn variety.
Thanks for the feedback on the TOH, and the Sumac, everybody! Hopefully, I'll be testing powder in the next few days, weather permitting.

[HighUintas]

Db, that's great news! I have some toh I harvested last year that I need to test out.

Just be careful about trying to eliminate that toh in any capacity. That stuff spreads more, the more you cut it and try to kill it. And reading about it, I think the most effective method the forest service uses is cutting and spraying a certain type of herbicide. It's got to be a combination, otherwise it just Spurs new growth.

[HWooldridge]

A mix of Roundup and Remedy in diesel will kill almost anything. I use it on huisache and mesquite down here in Tejas...

[HamGunner]

I had some runaway Winter Creeper on my place that I thought was going to be hard to stop. It stays green and grows all year and is hard to kill if one just pulls it up as the vines start roots every where the vine touches the ground, so roots are left under the ground unseen. It can easily restart from the pulled up vines as well.

After a bit of study, I found that a simple mixture of Roundup and Crossbow would easily knock it out. It takes months for it to die, but it does kill it. Probably will work on the stumps of most saplings as well. I have used Crossbow on Multiflora Rose as well as Musk Thistles and spring sprouting Buck Brush. But the combination of the Roundup along with brush killers seems to work well on hard to kill nuisance brush where there is no grass to worry about. I suppose by painting the stumps with Roundup and a good brushkiller combination would be safe enough even in a pasture.

[DoubleBuck]

I have a batch of the TOH on the mill now. The second half should be done tomorrow.
One observation: that wood is very low density. Two weeks ago, I made a full small retort of Sassafras, and it made a pound and 5 ounces. This batch was also full, but the charcoal was only enough for 10 grams short of a pound. The charcoal after being ground to near air float and milled for three hours, cannot be disturbed without wafting everywhere. It is crazy light. And, 2% ash is right there with my best, to date.

[Richard66]

Dont know the real name but we call it Shoemake Bush and we hate the stuff it is not good for anything I am aware of

[DoubleBuck]

Richard;
I've heard of Shoemake, or Shumake, nearly all my life and never related it to the pronunciation of Sumac. I guess the Staghorn variety has several medicinal uses. But, powder doesn't seem to be one. ha

[DoubleBuck]

If anyone is interested, the HF double drum tumblers are marked down 28%, at $49.99; which is the same price I paid about 4-5 years ago. I broke two belts in 12 hours on mine, and finally determined they were too tight. I had it pretty snug, when I increased the speed, which is now 75 RPM with a full load of lead balls. I'm going to check with my hydraulic repair shop and see if I can get a good heavy duty O- Ring. I think they will last longer, even though I've only broke three belts in that five years.

[LAGS]

The only time I had a belt break was when I exceeded the 3 lb. Weight limit for over an hour.

[DoubleBuck]

The only time I had a belt break was when I exceeded the 3 lb. Weight limit for over an hour.

LAGS;
I have 4.2 pounds total on it, but just a single drum. It is supposed to be good for 6 pounds with two drums, but I have increased the speed from 46 RPMs from the factory, to 76 RPMs now. I had the belt plenty tight, but also not running true, by about 1/16" or so, and trued it up, as well. I've ran the tumbler for the last 28 hours straight, but I have ran it for a week before. The first belt had five split places in it, before it broke. I'll see if it will do better, with things adjusted again.
At 75 RPMs it's making some good powder. I have increased all my milling times to 12 hours. I milled the charcoal for three hours by itself.

[LAGS]

The weight still might be an issue , because the machine was designed for 6 lb. Split up between Two Drums.
I don't know if overloading one drum really would effect the belt , but it might cause more resistance on the drive rollers.
My HF is a single drum , so I keep it under three pounds total.
But I only do half pound batches and 2 1/2 lb of media.

[HWooldridge]

Has anyone posting on this thread actually made any powder with grapevine charcoal? I keep reading that it’s great stuff but can’t recall any firsthand reports. I have a very large vine here that’s probably at least 20 years old, and the best part is that it’s a male vine so never sets fruit. That means I can cut away 80-90% of what’s there and still make the bees happy. In fact, I cut it down to the ground about 5 years ago but it came back with a vengeance and probably covers about 40-50’ of ground now. The biggest vines are around 6” in diameter and of course, eventually run down to tendrils - but there is a lot of usable wood there.

I also have a bunch of hackberry, which is listed as a fast charcoal with little ash content. I’m trying to decide what to cut next and cook.

[Nobade]

Has anyone posting on this thread actually made any powder with grapevine charcoal? I keep reading that it’s great stuff but can’t recall any firsthand reports. I have a very large vine here that’s probably at least 20 years old, and the best part is that it’s a male vine so never sets fruit. That means I can cut away 80-90% of what’s there and still make the bees happy. In fact, I cut it down to the ground about 5 years ago but it came back with a vengeance and probably covers about 40-50’ of ground now. The biggest vines are around 6” in diameter and of course, eventually run down to tendrils - but there is a lot of usable wood there.

I also have a bunch of hackberry, which is listed as a fast charcoal with little ash content. I’m trying to decide what to cut next and cook.

It made pretty fast powder that fouled a lot. Great for fireworks lift powder and to press rocket motors, less than optimal for firearm use.

[HWooldridge]

It made pretty fast powder that fouled a lot. Great for fireworks lift powder and to press rocket motors, less than optimal for firearm use.

Thanks, I’ll try the hackberry and see how it behaves.