My homemade black powder

[almar]

Almar;
Didn't you say that pistol is a .45? If so, are your speeds not comparable to a smokless .45 Long Colt? I saw a couple of them and they quoted 860 and 850 fps.
You're 170 fps above that! Was that still the same willow, 'brown' and 1.6 density?

It depends, the cowboy loads are about that, 850 fps. The "ruger only" loads are at or above 44 magnum level and will shoot a 255 gr bullet at 1500 fps. With black powder, the max loads I have seen with 35 gr or more are about 1000-1050 fps. Yes this is with my latest batch with better mill time. I have big lead .570 balls smashing around at 86rpm now and I leave it for 12 hours. It make a big difference.

[henryinpanama]

Never mind.

[DoubleBuck]

AlMar;
Could you determine how much Nitrate you lost, purifying it? It sounds interesting, but I'm debating whether to do it.
I'm going to reexamine my mill times again, as soon as I finish these next few tests you and I discussed. When I did it the first time, I went 12 hours I think was the most, and then went 8 hours and then 4. For several batches I have been testing the green meal, as milling time progresses. Two batches ago, I milled for 8 hours. But my last batch, the 'Brown', I milled for six.
Before I bought the chronograph, I thought I was able to make some informed choices, but after buying it, I am starting to question everything. haha.
Milling times, moisture, ash content, wood type, brown versus black, densities, grain sizes, patches, lubricants, will she or won't she. All of it. I love it all, but some of it can have a hard learning curve. It's good to have you and all these other guys throwing ideas and test results out. I think your work has been exceptional, and you've really opened up the possibilities for all of us. I appreciate it.
Congratulations on the duplication of your powders and the great results!

[Blacksmith]

I am not reading all 250 pages to see if this was covered but in some of the early posts there are various references to Ulrich Bretscher's Black Powder Page but the links are dead. I consider this an excellent reference so I am posting a link to the page in the Internet Archive (Wayback Machine) as of this date this link works:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170507...r/bp_menu.html

[mmb617]

I find it interesting that to my mind the posters in this thread fall into one of two categories. Now that the basics have been pretty well hashed out most of the posts are by those who will always be tweaking this or that in an attempt to get just a tad more performance out of their powder which already exceeds commercial powder performance. And there's certainly nothing wrong with that approach. I think they enjoy the challenge as they search for the elusive perfect powder, a goal that constantly moves forward. No matter how good their current powder is they always think they can do even better.

And then there's the guys like me. I just want something that works consistently for my application. If my powder is slightly less powerful than commercial but otherwise works well, then I'm content with it. And by works well I mean it has to flow properly through my flask into my powder measure and also flow from my primer into the pan. It has to ignite reliably and with no noticeable delay. When the chrono tells me I'm getting 1200fps instead of 1300fps with the same charge I can't feel that difference nor do I notice a decrease in accuracy. If I really wanted the same speed I could simply up the charge a little.

There were a couple things I wasn't happy with when I first started so I did some experimenting to find solutions. At first my powder didn't' flow worth a crap but I figured out it was because I had too many fines in it so I changed my screening procedure and now it flows very well. I also played around a while till I found a way to break up my pucks that works for me. It's kind of time consuming as I first break them into manageable size pieces using a brass drift in a stainless steel bowl, then use a ceramic hand grinder set on coarse, and then grind them again in a ceramic electric grinder set on fine. This method gives me mainly 3f product which is what I want. I regrind anything bigger than that and reprocess any fines. I don't get a whole lot of 4f but eventually will probably reprocess that as well since I don't need a lot of it for the pans.

Now that I have a product that works to my satisfaction I don't worry about making it better, but instead concentrate on making it exactly the same from one batch to the next. That will be extra important this winter when I can't get to the range as often to try it out as I need to be confident that the stockpile I intend to build is all good.

[DoubleBuck]

Yeah there is no doubt that the powder burns beyond just the first few inches.

Vettepilot, did you see on page 91 of that book that the guy used a roller grain mill too? Man its like he was reading this thread and wrote a book. I don't know if you connected the dots yet but he is the one in the video seamonkey linked for us some time ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yjepTZ-lH4

Wow, good eye there, Almar! It has been mentioned before that we could write a book from this thread. You may very well be right.

[DoubleBuck]

Never mind.

hahahaha Roseanne Roseanne Adanna.

[almar]

DB: I don't think he actually did that, I was just kidding a bit, but it's funny how we took similar paths. As far as the purifying potassium goes, jury is still out on whether it's worth it, but I didn't loose too much purifying it. I don't have exact numbers yet, some of is still drying.

Mmb617, I guess I would fall in the first category. I guess I kind of do that with most things. Those small improvements are the reward for me.

[Vettepilot]

Yeah there is no doubt that the powder burns beyond just the first few inches.

Vettepilot, did you see on page 91 of that book that the guy used a roller grain mill too? Man its like he was reading this thread and wrote a book. I don't know if you connected the dots yet but he is the one in the video seamonkey linked for us some time ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yjepTZ-lH4

You might have missed what I mentioned. I am pretty sure he was active in this forum. I remember his unique method of making a powder pressing die. He also mentioned that in some forum posts, and while I'm not going to bother going back digging/searching through this huge thread to find it, I'm relatively sure it was in this forum. So yeah, he's been here among us, and then wrote a book.

Then; oh yeah, that's me on improving things. (Or trying to do so!) I've been that way all my life with everything I've gotten into; it's an illness/obsession!!

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

"Long shot" here:

@ChrisPer: are you the author of "Like Fire and Powder"??

Thanks,
Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

I am not reading all 250 pages to see if this was covered but in some of the early posts there are various references to Ulrich Bretscher's Black Powder Page but the links are dead. I consider this an excellent reference so I am posting a link to the page in the Internet Archive (Wayback Machine) as of this date this link works:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170507...r/bp_menu.html

That "Wayback Machine" is cool and I've used it fairly often. And I love gathering reference material. Thanks for posting that.

Vettepilot

[almar]

I concluded something pretty good today, I did a franken blend of previous batches that I made with the unpurified KNO3 and milled it more (5 hours) with this new ball mill. These powders were initially milled with the lower RPM. I made one puck and unfortunately made it too dense by being inattentive (not by a lot, at maybe 1.7 g/cc) but I still tried it. both test shots were around 1010 fps for a 30 grain load so they are right at my latest and greatest batches performance level (maybe a touch less). Its the milling. I might say that its really one of the biggest factors in making more performance. But its so elusive because its hard to know if what we have is optimal or not. I you splurge on something for this, it should be that I think. If you are using duda diesel stuff or technical grade Haifa or a good quality KNO3, its likely a waste of time to purify it more, maybe if you have fertilizer grade it would be worth it.

[SeaMonkey]

Quote from VettePilot:

Then; oh yeah, that's me on improving things. (Or trying to do so!) I've been that way all my life with everything I've gotten into; it's an illness/obsession!!

I suspect there are a good many of us who have the "Obsession."

We just cannot rest until we have things "figured out."

With Black Powder ingredients the Potassium Nitrate and the Sulfur do not have much room for "tinkering or adjusting."

But the Charcoal! Voila! A Tinkerer's paradise has just been found! As Almar has shown us there is incredible room for trying different woods and temperatures.

And, we who are extraordinarily curious, are driven to discover "How, Why and What For" about everything there is to know about Charcoal and how it makes Black Powder have more Oooomph!

Can we make it better than Commercial for effect and clean burning?

I reckon we're well on the way to finding out.

[indian joe]

I concluded something pretty good today, I did a franken blend of previous batches that I made with the unpurified KNO3 and milled it more (5 hours) with this new ball mill. These powders were initially milled with the lower RPM. I made one puck and unfortunately made it too dense by being inattentive (not by a lot, at maybe 1.7 g/cc) but I still tried it. both test shots were around 1010 fps for a 30 grain load so they are right at my latest and greatest batches performance level (maybe a touch less). Its the milling. I might say that its really one of the biggest factors in making more performance. But its so elusive because its hard to know if what we have is optimal or not. I you splurge on something for this, it should be that I think. If you are using duda diesel stuff or technical grade Haifa or a good quality KNO3, its likely a waste of time to purify it more, maybe if you have fertilizer grade it would be worth it.

Speeding up the mill has me puzzled ......woulda thought that would lead to less effective milling rather than better ?
Is it a rotary tumbler ? (I forget - know one of you boys is using a converted clothes dryer)
How big (diameter) is your mill canister ?
Do you have any kind of baffles in it ?
I run about 65 rpm with a straight wall 6inch (inside) canister - round ball media from .32 to .75 cal

The link you posted has the "message" about cool cooking charcoal in one of the early charts (the gas production one) willow at 76-78 cubic foot just under Dogwood - but down the bottom of the same chart list overcooked willow only 59 - 66 cubic foot. That has been 'hiding in plain sight' under our noses .

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I did some testing today of my pucked, screened with SGRS and Pyrodex RS. All charges were 60gr by volume with a 250 Lee REAL boolit here's the numbers.

Pucked, 1247, 1199, 1172 AVG 1206
Screened, 905, 878, 897 AVG 893
Pyrodex, 1374, 1402, 1328 AVG 1368

The screened stuff was really firm but much larger granules. I may experiment with polishing them in the tumbler with a little powdered graphite.

I only got to shoot one round ball before the snow storm pushed me out. I used 80gr of screened and a 177gr ball, speed was 1293fps.

I was considering investing in a larger 20tn H-frame press but screened is working so well I don't think there's a need to invest more in pressing.

[almar]

Speeding up the mill has me puzzled ......woulda thought that would lead to less effective milling rather than better ?
Is it a rotary tumbler ? (I forget - know one of you boys is using a converted clothes dryer)
How big (diameter) is your mill canister ?
Do you have any kind of baffles in it ?
I run about 65 rpm with a straight wall 6inch (inside) canister - round ball media from .32 to .75 cal

The link you posted has the "message" about cool cooking charcoal in one of the early charts (the gas production one) willow at 76-78 cubic foot just under Dogwood - but down the bottom of the same chart list overcooked willow only 59 - 66 cubic foot. That has been 'hiding in plain sight' under our noses .

The jar has an inner diameter of 4 inches the balls are .57 and there are small steps or baffles. Now according to ball mill theory you should run the milll at about 65% of the critical rpm. For my configuration, thats about 90 rpm. Before I changed it, it was running around 50 rpm, I'm closer now at 86. There seems to be a sweet spot where if you run it too much under or over you get inefficient milling. Of course you need to also use the right filling ratios 50%-25%-25%.

[Vettepilot]

That link I posted a while back on ball milling has some pictures (and a video I believe) showing quite dramatically the effects of under and over spinning a ball mill. Quite effective at showing how important correct ball mill rotational speed is for efficient milling.

It's really evident with my adjustable rpm treadmill/ ball mill. As you adjust the rpms, you can quite readily hear the different sound. As I understand it, you don't want the balls riding up too far, then falling/crashing down from near the top. It seems like that would work pretty well, but apparently best milling happens just before that point, when all the media is churning; not falling. I can really hear the difference while adjusting the speed on mine.

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

I did some testing today of my pucked, screened with SGRS and Pyrodex RS. All charges were 60gr by volume with a 250 Lee REAL boolit here's the numbers.

Pucked, 1247, 1199, 1172 AVG 1206
Screened, 905, 878, 897 AVG 893
Pyrodex, 1374, 1402, 1328 AVG 1368

The screened stuff was really firm but much larger granules. I may experiment with polishing them in the tumbler with a little powdered graphite.

I only got to shoot one round ball before the snow storm pushed me out. I used 80gr of screened and a 177gr ball, speed was 1293fps.

I was considering investing in a larger 20tn H-frame press but screened is working so well I don't think there's a need to invest more in pressing.

Glad that SGRS is working for you. I like it. Durable grains! As I mentioned, I used a homemade rolling pin, and tried to crunch some of my screened 1fg to 2fg down to 3fg. It was a chore, and I didn't get much dust, so the grains are tough.

Personally, I never liked the idea of having a powder that would break down finer or make dust over time and handling.

Vettepilot

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Glad that SGRS is working for you. I like it. Durable grains! As I mentioned, I used a homemade rolling pin, and tried to crunch some of my screened 1fg to 2fg down to 3fg. It was a chore, and I didn't get much dust, so the grains are tough.

Personally, I never liked the idea of having a powder that would break down finer or make dust over time and handling.

Vettepilot

Thanks for your help. Working together I think we can all get through the shortages.

[almar]

indian joe, from the dimension you gave the target RPM is between 72 and 75 rpm so you aren't too far away, I was way off with 50 rpm when the target is 90.

Vette, that video was very informative. I have a few machining projects to finish but when im done, I think I would like to build another ball mill with a variable speed.