My homemade black powder

[Nobade]

Thank you for the quick testing! This stuff does indeed sound very promising. We may be on to something good here.

[henryinpanama]

DoubleBuck, how long and at what temperature did you cook the TP? TIA

[Linstrum]

Alright! So, we can do our wood chopping at the local supermarket! Rainy day projects take on a whole new meaning now! However, at what, about 15 minutes wages at minimum wage for one roll of Charmin. Hmmm, well in my way of thinking, that is little to pay for the fun, security, and independence the product derived from it produces!

My dad was the electrical systems engineer at the Charmin plant in Oxnard, California, back in 1974 to 1981. I don't buy the stuff, so I don't know who makes it now, but back then it was Procter and Gamble.

The wood pulp they used back in those days wasn't consistently the same tree species. Sometimes it was one of the bazillion kinds of eucalyptus (native to Australia and New Guinea) imported from Brazilian tree farms, the next time it was some kind of Canadian conifer.

From my own experience, depending on species, eucalyptus charcoal has one of the highest ash contents I have found, rivaling fennel (related to carrots and parsnips) at 16%. On the other hand, some conifers make darned good charcoal, as reported here.

Like I've mentioned a few times in the past, be sure to assay your charcoal for its ash content, which some of you have been doing. Ash is a black powder nuisance and causes several kinds of problems when it gets above about 3% to 4%, depending on what is in the ash (ash has several components that vary significantly by plant species). Some of the participants here have found plant species that make charcoal with less than 2% ash, which is highly desirable.

So, if you find a batch of toilet paper that works well, get a bunch while it lasts. Don't be shy about trying paper towels, either.

Kind of interesting, back when my dad was at the Charmin toilet paper factory, when everything was working right on the huge continuous process toilet paper making machine, the Charmin toilet paper came flying, and I mean flying, off the Yankee drying drum at 55 miles per hour! The Yankee drying drum was about 8 feet wide and 8 feet in diameter, and as I recall, hard chromium plated.

The first Pringles artificial potato chips were made in that Charmin toilet paper plant, too. Pringles are actually a kind of paper made from raw potato pulp, which is then cut and pressed into the Pringles shape, and then cooked like regular potato chips (potato crisps to those of you of the British Empire).

Yes, I did meet Mr. Whipple, what 47 years ago. The Charmin factory had an open house for family members, so I got a roll of Charmin, some Pringles, and Mr. Whipple admonished us not to squeeze the Charmin.

[DoubleBuck]

henryinpanama;
It cooked about exactly like regular wood. I did it in my wood stove over a pretty small bed of coals, in a quart can, inside a gallon paint can, with the quart can on a broken fire brick. It started to smoke lightly in maybe 20 minutes and at 45 minutes, I pulled it to see what was going on. It looked like it was soaked with creosote and still mostly the texture of toilet paper. I put it back on, which took a minute to rebuild the smoke; and then I let it go from between 10 and 15 minutes. I was watching the smoke like a hawk and as soon as it started to shut down, I pulled it again when the flame was still blue and about 2 inches long; and it was near perfect. It wasn't brittle charcoal, but it 'fell apart'.
So, a low temperature in my firebox and about an hour, timewise. Probably 50 minutes if I had not cooled it down early. A quart paint can held a roll very tightly, and it cooked evenly as far as I could see. Inside the can was dark brown burnt on creosote, or residue.
I figure a guy could cook about three rolls in a gallon can; which would make about 389 grams, if it produced three times one roll. And, I'll bet there would be enough room, to stuff enough of the fourth roll to make an even pound.
Linstrum;
The charcoal assayed at less than 1%. It took 16.5 grains of Charmin to make .1 grain of ash! Check my post #7558 and check my math, to verify. If I didn't figure wrong, it is the lowest ash content of anything I've checked so far.
The link to the guy on Youtube, where we got the idea, used Cottonelle. I don't know how much difference there is, but his gave him the highest velocities of his home made experience. He thought it was not the cleanest, but passable, at least. I thought it was very clean. 20 shots without swabbing one time, made a believer out of me. I did notice by probably the 15th shot or so, of not a lot, but a few heavy sparks fly at the end of the barrel. I assumed those were probably the embers made from what had been pushed to the chamber, by the next patch. When I cleaned my rifle, I was impressed at how clean it really was.
He made his 77-13-10 recipe and I used 75-15-10. I look forward to other people trying T.P. and posting their results.
ETA: Guys, on this post and post 7558, I wrote one grain instead of .1 grain ash. Instead of copying my notes, I called it off the top of my head, and got it wrong. Linstrum caught it and told me it was 6% ash as I had written it. Sorry about the mistake.
On the price, I looked and a 12 roll pack is $1.39 per roll, on the shelf.
Nobade;
BTW, thank you again for posting the link! I think it may open up a whole new avenue!

[henryinpanama]

Thanks, DoubleBuck. I'm definitely to give it a try.

[DoubleBuck]

The guy on 'Everything Black Powder' on Youtube used Cottonelle Super Clean T.P. I used Charmin Ultra Strong. Is there a difference? I'm going to try a retort full of the Cottonelle and decide for myself. I'll report back when it's complete and tested. There may be a difference and it was his fastest (velocity) powder. Mine was not, but had other advantages I really liked. If anyone has a preference that they think may beat both of these, I'm willing to experiment a minute, to see. Let me know. Carry on!

[HWooldridge]

I don't know this for a fact, but suspect the manufacturers use whatever wood mix meets their internal specifications for the paper. The instructions may state to remove all bark, or not...and it may allow straw or cotton or other materials to be added.

That being said, it can be plenty consistent and acceptable for the intended purpose but maybe not for consistent BP. Time and experimentation should eventually prove out whether we have collectively struck a gold mine.

Here is a link about wood pulp being used for TP: https://www.clean-wipe.com/wood-pulp-toilet-paper.html

[dondiego]

This may have been answered and an apology if I have missed it but do you remove the cardboard tube prior to heating?

[DoubleBuck]

Dondiego;
The guy on Youtube removed it and two layers off the top, where he said it was 'glued', after cooking. I removed two layers off the top and the cardboard tube, before cooking, both times.
HW
I looked a couple of nights ago, on the Cottonelle sight. Under the heading Sustainable, I believe it was, without looking; it said they don't clear cut, and only harvest 'sustainable' growth woods. It didn't say just pine, so there's that, but I couldn't find more info on it. They did say they used zero recyclables.
Now, For Anyone Following Or Interested
I have a couple of current reports.
I went to the local Dollar G. Store and bought four rolls of Cottonelle Super Clean for $6.02 out the door.
One roll with cardboard roll out and two rounds off the top, took me a minute to fold and stuff and poke and prod and stuff, to get it into the Quart paint can. The Charmin was hard to get in, but not nearly as hard. When I finally got the Cottonelle in, I had room to put the ten rounds in on top, that I had unrolled to be able to make it fit.
Two other rolls I put in my one gallon paint can. Had to tear the fourth and last roll in two to make it stuff the can brim full, tightly.
Charmin rolls were 396 squares two ply. 3+ squares totaling 16.5 grains, made a scant .1 grain of ash. Each square weighed 6.5 grains.
The Cottonelle is 312 one ply sheets, but the rolls are larger in diameter. Go figure.
Today, the Cottonelle weighed 7.4 grains each, and I went ahead and ashed four of them totaling 29.6 grains. They flashed .1 grain and back to zero, twice. My math says that equals .0038% ash. Which blows my mind, actually.
I put the quart can in by itself with one roll and the gallon can in beside it, with three rolls. I put them on three nice flat pieces of wood to insulate them from a three inch Red Oak bed of coals. The fire box was reading 350°F when I opened it up and cooled off some before I got everything situated. The cans are both just now starting to smoke slightly and it's been about an hour. The wood is starting to get hot and the small can is leaking creosote out the vent hole. The smoke is not flammable as yet.
I'll be back.

This is one roll, from the quart can. To me, this, as the guy in the 70's said, is simply mavelous. It came out near perfect to me. The gallon can is still cooling down. I cooled the quart to room temp and opened it up and started taking the charcoal out and near the bottom, it was still hot enough to have a wisp of smoke up. You can wave heat on this charcoal, and it goes. Right Now... It insulates itself better than anything I could have imagined. I crammed it all back in the can and set it by the fire a minute, taped up to make it exit air. One roll made 39.555 grams of Charcoal.
This compares to the Charmin, which made 21.397 Grams of Charcoal from one roll. The texture of the coal is different as well. You can feel the extra density in it. Whether that is good or bad, I guess we'll see.
ETA: The gallon can was beautiful and all together, the Cottonelle 4 roll pack made 135.21 Grams of Charcoal.
4 Rolls of the Charmin would make 85.586 grams Charcoal. Big difference there, and shows me that the Cottonelle is much more dense than the Charmin. Higher Density here should equate to higher powder density, before processing. I think that will be a great thing. If it really is as volatile as it looks.
ETA: This paper charcoal is basically airfloat when it comes out of the retort. I normally put a half pound of powder in each of two jars; which I mill one at a time. I loaded the charcoal in the first retort and had to pack it down a bunch and still had a whole baggie that needed to go in the jar. I put the lid on it and shook it for about two minutes and opened it up. It had lost two thirds of it's volume. I packed the last in it and it was completely full again. I thought there was no way it would lose enough volume to put the other two chemicals in. I shook it a couple of minutes and popped it on the mill and left it for 2-1/2 hours. The charcoal was below the mill media, when I opened it up. I loaded the sulfur and salt peter to it and threw it back on the mill. I just checked it after two hours and it looks done, but I'm letting it mill for 8 hours. This powder is excellent to work with. No breaking, grinding, or even separating the charcoal. Throw it in the mill and thirty minutes later it is face powder air float. Absolutely amazing.

[HamGunner]

DoubleBuck,
It certainly is exciting to sit here in the bleachers and observe your progress. If it works out to be low ash and fast burning plus make a slight denser granulated powder, it would be the cat's meow for cartridge and revolver use. I will surely be wanting to try to make up some for use in my revolvers.

As it is so far with my Sassafras powder if I remember correctly, I am about matching Goex for velocity with the same weight of charge, although my density is still a bit lower. If this TP charcoal can produce a bit higher density powder and maintain or even increase the burn speed of my Sassafras, I would be tickled pink and probably plenty other colors.

As it is, I still have a bit of space to play with left inside my cylinders from the loads that I have been tinkering with, but it would be nice to be able to top them off with some really energetic powder for when I might want a max. charge for hunting or whatever.

Edit: I normally make about a 2 lb. batch of powder at a time, so if I have calculated correctly using your results, that would take right around 4 rolls of Cottonelle TP ? Amazing, but I guess there is very little moisture weight to burn off from TP.

[DoubleBuck]

HamGunner;
The first jar is off the mill and the second one has about three hours left. I have really high hopes for the powder. It is looking excellent. I was satisfied with the first batch, but by looks and feel, this certainly appears to be better. I should be pressing pucks right now, but think I'm going to wait and put both batches together.
I used a little less than half the charcoal I made, to make one pound of powder. So, four rolls will definitely make two pounds. I'll post some shooting results as soon as I can. I should have a great direct comparison between the two types of paper.
Ham, the most impressive thing I have experienced making the Home Made, is the low ash of both types of T.P. It was unbelievable to me, how low the ash is. You can burn ten squares of it and not have .2 grains of ash. I don't see how that can even be possible, but my two experiences with it says it is not only possible, but absolute. I think this opens a whole new avenue, for the Home Made Market. LOL It takes out cutting, debarking, measuring for retort, cleaning, breaking up, grinding and air floating charcoal.
I have an idea that when you open up the finished cook, just throw some media in the retort and shake it a few minutes and when you open it up, it will be near airfloat straight out of the retort. You just have to be sure and let it cool long enough. The center of the layers of tp are so insulated, they will spontaneously combust when broken apart. I caught mine both times, as soon as a wisp of smoke came up. I found all you have to do is smash it with your hand and get it stirred up and it will kill the reaction quickly. Shaking the can real good will do it as well.
ETA: Ham, I lied. I guess I was looking at the volume of charcoal after the first jar was full. The charcoal was short of making two pounds, by four grams. I was going to have to refigure my weights, so instead, I just added four grams of powdered Sassafras charcoal to the mix, to make it come out even. Out of two pounds, I wouldn't think 4 grams of different coal would make a bit of difference. But four rolls liked four grams of making 2 pounds.

[passgas55]

I have been reading about using tp to make charcoal. I like the idea of trying something new but
don't like the idea of the cost and you can have a shortage of tp. Now on to my idea of using what at one time
may have been the forerunner of tp. No not your fingers or leaves but corn cobs.It must had been tried before for bp but
so far I can't find any info. I will grow a patch of corn this year but will look around to find a source. They do grow corn in limited amounts
around here. Maybe months before I can try but I will.

[HWooldridge]

The chart on the Wichita Buggy Whip site suggests that corn cob is very slow and doesn’t have much potential to make any kind of reasonable gun powder. It would probably “work” insofar as you could see it burn, assuming the other proportions are correct and made properly.

[DoubleBuck]

At $1.39 to $1.50 per roll, I would say when you add up cutting up your wood, debarking the wood; cleaning the bark seams and knots; drying it; cutting it to length, cooking it; breaking up the charcoal into grindable chunks; grinding the charcoal; sifting it; and air floating it, the price is pretty cheap.
TP cuts out probably at least two hours from the time required to make and when you can throw it in the mill jar for 30 minutes to have airfloat charcoal that has very near zero ash; I consider that a major plus and no expense at all.
If you're worried about a toilet paper shortage, look at the toilet paper isle in any store. That shortage was a scam on the American people, not an actual shortage of anything. If you think there might be a shortage, buy a twenty four pack. That should last you several years.
Then again, I'm not pushing anyone to use anything particular for charcoal.
If it makes hot rod powder and is clean burning, easier to make and costs me less than $5 for a pound for powder comparable to the best commercial, at over $40 per pound; I'm in with both feet.

[Thundermaker]

At the very least, buying a bulk pack of the same material helps ensure batch to batch consistency.

[Sandro_ventania]

Hey guys!
I have been following this topic with great interest. Regarding toilet paper, I believe that the best are the very white and soft ones. Those of lower quality are probably made from recycled paper.
Has anyone here tried cotton charcoal and banana charcoal? They are rich sources of cellulose. Here in Brazil, the Elephant factory made blackpowder from the Embaúba Tree... as light as Balsa. I'm getting ready to start my production.
Sorry for the translation.

[Nobade]

That is interesting. We had Elephant powder here in the US for a bit, and it was terrible. Very weak and a lot of fouling. I had always heard they used palm wood for it.

[HighUintas]

Hey guys, I come to check in on you cause I've been busy with hunting and general life and wondered how the progress is going.

And I see you're playing around with TP!!!

I need to keep a closer eye on you, DB. You never seem to end the experimentation. I like it.

The next round of BP I make, if I can ever find time to get back to it, I'll have to give the TP a try. That will at least cut out some of time required.

DB, did I see something about you putting a new belt on your tumbler to get the RPM upto 100? Are you still using your HF tumbler?

[DoubleBuck]

HighUintas;
Yes. If you remember back quite some time ago, I originally had (I think) about 3/8" clear vinyl tubing on both the drive roller and the idler roller. Over that I put black gas line hose, which increased the speed to either 82 or 84 RPMs. Bad memory there, but it is in my old post to VettePilot on it; if I can find it, or the picture I took of it.
Recently, I had searched replacement belts and accidentally ran into a set of ten belts, that are actually a basic hydraulic 'O'-Ring. Guaranteed to last longer and perform better.
Search, 'Bar 27 Innovations Replacement Belts Chicago Electric 10 Pack' and you will see them available at all the major online retailers. I think you can buy packs of 1 to 10.
I put one on, and it increased my drum speed dramatically. I couldn't figure out why, until I studied it closely. These belts are somewhat bigger than the pulley grooves, on the motor and drive pulley. The belt rides on the outer edges of the pulleys. The driven pulley is so large diameter, it doesn't slow it nearly as much as it increases the motor drive pulley working diameter by about 3/8", by riding on the outer edges of the 'V'. It increased my drum speed to exactly 100 RPM's. I had to use the stop watch on my phone to count them probably six times.
I've ran the mill with the new belt on it for more than thirty two hours of the last week and have nothing but praise for it. It is a really good upgrade, and I had already laid one of my belts on the desk and was going to take it to my hydraulic repair shop, to have him match an O-Ring to it. I found these, before I had the chance.
I also changed my mill media to 125 9MM FMJ 147 grain bullets, in each drum. They are working fantastic, as media. I only run one drum at a time, on my mill, to help compensate for the increased load. The motor is staying cool and has performed flawlessly. It is recommended to run the belts only as tight as it takes to make the mill work. They caution against over tightening.
The mill has to be shimmed up on the thrust side of the frame. If level, it tries to over center the drum and let it bump the inside edge of the frame. Shimming that side up about a quarter inch or more, makes the center of gravity back over the center of the two rollers.
I recovered 1.997 pounds of powder in 51 pucks which were dried last night and are awaiting grinding and screening; from 4 rolls of Cottonelle Super Clean. I got some great Density from them and it came out 1.598 Grams per CC density. It looks like it is going to be great powder.

[Sandro_ventania]

That is interesting. We had Elephant powder here in the US for a bit, and it was terrible. Very weak and a lot of fouling. I had always heard they used palm wood for it.

The first batches used wood with bark to reduce labor and thus costs. This hurt the brand, as it really was a bad product. However, the company realized this and carried out improvement work, producing shellless charcoal and better grinding. The result was a better black powder than Goex. But the bad reputation had already happened. I have a test chart from that time, I'll try to find it.