My homemade black powder

[almar]

There is certainly no need for anyone to be as ocd as i am about it, i just become very driven about certain things sometimes. I only wish it be about building a fortune one day.

[Vettepilot]

So Almar. How is your cooking rig set up?? A quart can with the wood and thermocouple, inside a gallon can, inside a pot with lead, all on a propane burner?? Do I have that right? Can you elaborate a bit? And it was cooked for an hour at 600? Wood tightly packed in can? How was the gas emission flame?

Great work, and results!!

Thanks!!
Vettepilot

[SeaMonkey]

Quote from Vettepilot:

I can't help but wonder too though, what might happen if you sacrificed a little sulphur instead of charcoal in your recipe. The charcoal is the fuel and the sulphur more an "enabler" as I see it...

Some Gunners have made their Black Powder with reduced Sulfur and increased Charcoal and found it to work very well.

Powder made with no Sulfur at all produces very little smoke but is somewhat more difficult to ignite.

For Sulfurless Powder a Brown Charcoal is a necessity and it may require a small amount of Dextrin to produce strong grains.

The ratios of Potassium Nitrate to Charcoal for the Sulfurless Powder most used range from 78:22 to 80:20 but experimentation is required to get the mix "just right."

[Vettepilot]

I like sulphur in the black powder, for various reasons. I think the thought regarding the interest in sulphur-free BP, is that those thinking about TEOLAWKI figure that in the Zombie apocalypse one could make charcoal and KNO3, but the sulphur would be more problematic...

Since stockpiling a hundred pounds of sulphur would have you set for 1000 pounds of black powder in the "dark days" I'm not so worried about it myself!

;~)

My thought was that when using primo charcoal and wishing to increase the KNO3 ratio, that lowering the sulphur a bit to maintain a 100% aggregate recipe might be an idea worth trying.

Vettepilot

[LAGS]

You guys keep talking about being OCD about improving your homemade powder , and how frustrating it can be.
But look at it this way.
Daniel Boone or Davy Crockett probably went thru similar frustrations.
IE.
Do we use Bat Guano or chicken poop for the KNO3.
Do we just select some charcoal from last night's fire pit or try to make a separate batch from known wood.
And they didn't have ball mills to grind up the sulfer to a uniform powder.
Plus ,
Did they have accurate scales to weigh out their stuff for the right ratio.
Or did they have to play with trying to ratio stuff by volume.
Looks like we have it made with all the stuff at our hands

[Vettepilot]

Well, it can be frustrating to be OCD, because "good enough" never cuts it when constantly searching for "better", or "perfect."

But regards black powder, I don't know that anyone here is frustrated really, we're just having fun with this. It's kind of a "hobby within a hobby, within a hobby" for me! (Guns-->reloading-->black powder.)

Vettepilot

[almar]

I enjoy this process personally, when I reach a point where I took this where I want to take it, ill be miserable and look for another project asap.

Vette: what I have now to make this charcoal is a little half assed, it works but it takes a lot of gas and its hit or miss until you learn the "groove" so to speak. It was thrown together quickly without much thought. I'm currently thinking of a way to make it much more efficient, consistent and controllable. I also would like to keep the costs down, that kiln you were talking about would have been fantastic if it was vented.

You have it about right, its a 9 inch diameter, 6 inch high cooking pot I use to meld down lead, it is filled with about 30 lbs of lead or so (guessing). This is to transfer heat consistently to the 1 gallon paint can that I put in it. This is essentially a kiln.

Inside the kiln, there is what they call a cylinder that contains the wood to be cooked, in my case its just a small pint sized paint can. This can is vented with 3 3/16 holes and I put the k type thermocouple into its center hole. I put some pieces of tile at the bottom of the kiln to raise up the cylinder so I don't burn the wood.

The kiln is also vented with 3 small 1/8 holes in the center of the lid. I put a 45 lb plate on top and found out that I needed an extra 20 lbs to keep the can from floating on the lead. It sits on a 30000 btu burner. It rises quickly to 210-215 deg and sits there for noticeable amount of time but it smokes. It then starts rising again and when it reaches 300 I need to turn that heat down from high to low. If you don't do this, it will continue to rise slowly and it will not stop until you pass 600 and then you have to rush to remove the weights and the can from the lead and vent out the kiln, It heated too fast and you likely have a lot of unburnt wood now. Think low and slow, inching closer to that target temperature, only raise the temperature if it stalls. It took a few before I got my first good batch. There is no pressurized steam jetting out of there, only blue aromatic smoke, no fire.

edit : I cut the wood so that I get about 0.5 inches thick pieces about the can length and try to fill the small paint can it as much as I can with the thicker pieces on the outer rim and much as possible. I get about 90 grams of charcoal from 1 batch, give or take.

[indian joe]

I like sulphur in the black powder, for various reasons. I think the thought regarding the interest in sulphur-free BP, is that those thinking about TEOLAWKI figure that in the Zombie apocalypse one could make charcoal and KNO3, but the sulphur would be more problematic...

Since stockpiling a hundred pounds of sulphur would have you set for 1000 pounds of black powder in the "dark days" I'm not so worried about it myself!

;~)

My thought was that when using primo charcoal and wishing to increase the KNO3 ratio, that lowering the sulphur a bit to maintain a 100% aggregate recipe might be an idea worth trying.

Vettepilot

That would have been my thoughts except that I shoot a couple of flintlocks need good ignition for that game ---- but for cartridge guns and caplocks - hows about 80-13-7 ? proly about as far as this can be pushed?

[ChrisPer]

Over the weekend I shot our State Championships with P-H .577 2band rifle, Pedersoli Tryon .54 caplock and Pedersoli Mortimer .54 flint rifle.
I burned 1.4 kg about 3 lbs of powder, almost all my own make of FF and FFF. I used Swiss for prime at first, but when that vial was empty I used my own FFFF and it was just as fast.
My scores are back in the pack but I shot every match so I won silver medals for Aggregates, and the range officer was watching me in the 100m 3 Position Class 3 (shot with the .577) and my last shot standing he saw go a 10X. Nice to be noticed!

[almar]

I adjusted the remaining 77-13-10 mix to 78-12-10 and ball milled for 1 hour or so at about 90 rpm. This is the ratio the swiss company reportedly uses. Its in the press now and is all that is remaining of this mix. If velocity increases, the mix is still more efficient, possibly skewed with the added ball milling. If the velocity decreases, then I know that for this charcoal, the 77-13-10 was optimal . I could play around with the Sulphur for more fine tuning but the fact that I also own a flintlock makes me want to keep that ignition point low. Just a thought but if you really fine tune the ratios, you better make sure that charcoal is consistent, this is not something I have mastered quite yet.

[almar]

Nope, its worse than yesterday, 77-13-10 is optimal for this charcoal.

[almar]

Its my day off having fun, wife is away, smoking a cigar, watching the charcoal while my new batch of 77-13-10 is milling back away on my property. Good times.

[Vettepilot]

I enjoy this process personally, when I reach a point where I took this where I want to take it, ill be miserable and look for another project asap.

Vette: what I have now to make this charcoal is a little half assed, it works but it takes a lot of gas and its hit or miss until you learn the "groove" so to speak. It was thrown together quickly without much thought. I'm currently thinking of a way to make it much more efficient, consistent and controllable. I also would like to keep the costs down, that kiln you were talking about would have been fantastic if it was vented.

You have it about right, its a 9 inch diameter, 6 inch high cooking pot I use to meld down lead, it is filled with about 30 lbs of lead or so (guessing). This is to transfer heat consistently to the 1 gallon paint can that I put in it. This is essentially a kiln.

Inside the kiln, there is what they call a cylinder that contains the wood to be cooked, in my case its just a small pint sized paint can. This can is vented with 3 3/16 holes and I put the k type thermocouple into its center hole. I put some pieces of tile at the bottom of the kiln to raise up the cylinder so I don't burn the wood.

The kiln is also vented with 3 small 1/8 holes in the center of the lid. I put a 45 lb plate on top and found out that I needed an extra 20 lbs to keep the can from floating on the lead. It sits on a 30000 btu burner. It rises quickly to 210-215 deg and sits there for noticeable amount of time but it smokes. It then starts rising again and when it reaches 300 I need to turn that heat down from high to low. If you don't do this, it will continue to rise slowly and it will not stop until you pass 600 and then you have to rush to remove the weights and the can from the lead and vent out the kiln, It heated too fast and you likely have a lot of unburnt wood now. Think low and slow, inching closer to that target temperature, only raise the temperature if it stalls. It took a few before I got my first good batch. There is no pressurized steam jetting out of there, only blue aromatic smoke, no fire.

edit : I cut the wood so that I get about 0.5 inches thick pieces about the can length and try to fill the small paint can it as much as I can with the thicker pieces on the outer rim and much as possible. I get about 90 grams of charcoal from 1 batch, give or take.

Ok, thanks for all the info! Very nice!

However, this begs one more question. Normally, you know when the charcoal is done cooking when the vent flame goes out. You're not lighting the off-gas, (won't light??), so how do you know it's done?? About how long does it take?

Do you think ash content is strictly relative to cooking heat, or to wood type as well??

Man, the more I think about it, the more it seems like a PID controlled electric kiln would be "tits" for this. I looked on e-bay and those suckers are expensive though. Looks like I'll have to build one myself....

Just what I needed; yet another project. Oh well.

Sorry for all the questions. Don't feel bad about your jury rigged cooking setup. It's a proof of concept rig, and I would say the concept is proved!

Vettepilot

[indian joe]

Ok, thanks for all the info! Very nice!

However, this begs one more question. Normally, you know when the charcoal is done cooking when the vent flame goes out. You're not lighting the off-gas, (won't light??), so how do you know it's done?? About how long does it take?

Do you think ash content is strictly relative to cooking heat, or to wood type as well??

Man, the more I think about it, the more it seems like a PID controlled electric kiln would be "tits" for this. I looked on e-bay and those suckers are expensive though. Looks like I'll have to build one myself....

Just what I needed; yet another project. Oh well.

Sorry for all the questions. Don't feel bad about your jury rigged cooking setup. It's a proof of concept rig, and I would say the concept is proved!

Vettepilot

VP ya should see my setup - I toss a few assorted sized paint cans in an old rusted 50 gallon drum incinerator - regulate the heat by adding more wood or raking the fire out - watch the smoke coming out the vent hole - soon as that subsides a little I haul that can out and cool it - if I can break those sticks and they coloured through I grind em - if not they go back for another cook - grind in a big old meat grinder - mix it all up good - then ball mill it for storage. I dont have a clue what I am doing temperature wise, get consistency by making a heap at one time, and thoroughly mixing it once its minced up. WEAR A MASK when your doing this stuff fine ground charcoal is NOT good for the lungs.

I would never cook it to where the vent flame goes out - well I dont light that anyways, but I would haul that can out while it could still burn pretty good

[almar]

Ok, thanks for all the info! Very nice!

However, this begs one more question. Normally, you know when the charcoal is done cooking when the vent flame goes out. You're not lighting the off-gas, (won't light??), so how do you know it's done?? About how long does it take?

Do you think ash content is strictly relative to cooking heat, or to wood type as well??

Man, the more I think about it, the more it seems like a PID controlled electric kiln would be "tits" for this. I looked on e-bay and those suckers are expensive though. Looks like I'll have to build one myself....

Just what I needed; yet another project. Oh well.

Sorry for all the questions. Don't feel bad about your jury rigged cooking setup. It's a proof of concept rig, and I would say the concept is proved!

Vettepilot

That's the art...you know when its done with the temperature and experience from repeating the same process a few times. This is the problem i'm talking about. Its like a bbq. I never paid no mind to vapor or fumes, I don't think it would have helped, there is too much of that before you need to shut it down.

[SeaMonkey]

Quote from Indian Joe:

I would never cook it to where the vent flame goes out -

That is a very good tip.

In order to retain a good percentage of volatiles in the charcoal to make it most flammable and minimize the ash percentage.

The flammable smoke which is venting is made up of the volatiles.

If the charcoal is cooked until the flame of the burning escaping volatiles extinguishes then it is overcooked.

For doing it all strictly "by eye" your technique is a good one Indian Joe.

[almar]

Vette:
https://youtu.be/Aba62VOlOXc

Seems easy enough.

[Vettepilot]

Hmmm... well, you guys have me thoroughly confused now.

Everything I have always seen, heard, read, watched in videos, known of to be rumored, studied, and done, was that when the vented gases would no longer burn, that was your indication that the charcoal was done, and your sole indication of when to stop cooking. I thought at that point, and given that your cook temp had been kept below 650 degrees, pyrolizing had occurred, and proper volatiles were still in the charcoal.

But now you guys are saying NOT to cook until the flame goes out, so I have virtually no idea how one monitors charcoal cooking progress and termination time! None!

:~(

Vettepilot

[indian joe]

Hmmm... well, you guys have me thoroughly confused now.

Everything I have always seen, heard, read, watched in videos, known of to be rumored, studied, and done, was that when the vented gases would no longer burn, that was your indication that the charcoal was done, and your sole indication of when to stop cooking. I thought at that point, and given that your cook temp had been kept below 650 degrees, pyrolizing had occurred, and proper volatiles were still in the charcoal.

But now you guys are saying NOT to cook until the flame goes out, so I have virtually no idea how one monitors charcoal cooking progress and termination time! None!

:~(

Vettepilot

Vettepilot
not saying not to do it - not at all - just saying I would never do it -- BIG difference - I am impatient is part of it - but also based my idea on cooking charcloth for muzzleloader firelighting competitions - the bloke that used to win most often told me his method = quit as soon as the smoke starts to ease off - his char cloth may have had nothing to do with his success in competitions - cuz the same dude just hated being beat.

I just follered this guys guide and it seemed to work better so applied the same plan to charcoal

You would just hate my setup - I have a selection of tin cans, 20 litre, 10 litre, couple of 5 litre, couple of 3 litre milo tins, they all got wire handles on sos I can move em round in the fire, lids are secured with three drywall screws, one vent hole in the middle , all goes in an old rusted out 50 gallon incinerator drum with a mesh grid at the 1/3 mark.
The wood I saw to length for each container then split it (like kindling wood) about 3/4 inch squares - got plenty willow so I throw out any knotty bits that dont split easy - its all old dry wood = deadfall branches (its what I have and its worked so far) - I throw any punky stuff thats not sound wood - been lucky so far is all there is to it - I guess one day I will mess up (seat of the pants might catch fire eh ) and I will be stuck with a large batch of stuff that is second rate - thats ok - I got a post hole digger gadget that needs some rough stuff and it eats it up quick.

The message here is - gotta do it and figure out what works best for each of us - everybody is gonna have different aims and different gear to do it with

[HamGunner]

Well, I went out and scrounged up a couple more dead hanging Black Willow limbs and this time by decreasing the char temperature to stay under 600 degrees, I managed to cut my ash weight in half. I went from 9.8% (cooked just under 750 degrees and waited until the gases that became flammable would go out) down to 4.5% ash and the gases are not even flammable yet, or at least will not light. Seems to at least get the left over ash content down and I would think that is a good thing. And the wood is more of a dark brown color when charred rather than all black.

I used a resealable metal can that just barely fits into my 20 lb. Lee casting furnace and placed three small flat lava rocks in the bottom of it for my inner can to sit on to keep it up off the bottom of the larger can, which sits on 1 lb. of molten lead. I did not seal the inner can, but placed my casting furnace temperature gauge down through the outer can lid down about half way into the inner container of wood. When the smoke mostly stopped after sitting in 575-600 degrees for a bit, I called it good. Took me most of the day to get about 1/2 lb. of charcoal with my small containers, but if it really shows improvement I will figure out a way to do it on a larger scale. But then, I really do not go through that much BP, so a couple or three lbs. of BP in my next batch will probably last me for a good while.

Now to work on the milling and compression stages of the process to increase the density, hopefully.