My homemade black powder

[Graysmoke]

Hi new to register on site, but reading along time.
Been making BP for a while and decided to join because of the great knowledge given here. I ball mill for 8-10 hrs then press and dry and grind for 3f used in my smokepoles. My pucking might be to aggressive I use a 20 ton and press to the stroke that gets hard to move, then wait 1 min. Under pressure and give 1or2 more strokes and hold 1 min. They come out hard and black but I notice my die has bell mouthed at the bottom. Would less pressure serve as well?
Graysmoke

[DoubleBuck]

Graysmoke;
If you're using proper moisture, your pucks should be high density. 1.7 G/CC+-, if your die is about 2 inches. The setup you describe is what I use and your technique should get some high density numbers. What is your die made of? If it is aluminum, brass or stainless, I wouldn't think it would warp very much at all. If it is plastic, I have no experience. You do need the die square and plumb to the press and backing plate as you can get it. Given that, I would expect warpage to be minimal. Someone may have other advice.
Welcome to the site!

[greyhawk]

Indian Joe, do you have a tutorial you could point me to on how you make yours?

I am interested in screened and corned.... What ever burns the cleanest with modest velocity.

my 45/70 has a short barrel, and I'm only after very low velocity/heavy boolit hunting at close range.
my muzzleloaders (all inlines) are too fast a twist for RB, but a flintlock with a RB twist is in my near future, I think.

the basics dont change much really
what can you do easily for charcoal ? I do hybrid willow - willow is good, tree of heaven, cedar, pawlonia, ---all pretty decent.

quality chemical ingredients - greenhouse grade soluble KNO3, 99.9% pure yellow sulphur, dextrin or glutinous rice starch
(if screened powder) --clean water to damp it down ---dont mess with alcohol in the mix

a ball mill to grind it up.

Screened powder is plenty good for front loaders

You want pucks for loading cartridge rounds

Its all laid out on this forum - little variations on the theme depending who the operator is - not particularly difficult to make powder equal to commercial - proly a little cleaner burning - maybe you a little slower velocity (or faster?)

Getting equal density in pucked powder is the most difficult - settle for a little less (90% 93%) and life gets easier.

Screened will be 65% density or so - just adjust the load accordingly so you end at the same or similar WEIGHT.

most of the complicated-ness on these pages comes from blokes trying to get the last 5% out of their process OR better the velocity of Swiss or whatever - nothing wrong with that but settle for 95% at the start and life gets easy.

[Graysmoke]

DOUBLE BUCK,
My die is a stainless steel rosin press and 1 1/8”diameter id. pucks are 1/8”-1/4” thick just enough water to stop dust when stirring the green meal no water weeping when pressed or just damp. I put a steel support ring around the od. with an interference fit seems to work.
Graysmoke

[hk940]

Lowe's sells 100% potassium nitrate AKA as Spectracide stump remover!

[LAGS]

The stump remover works good.
I do recrystallize it to make sure it is consistent and truly pure if I ever use it
But buying chemicals in bulk can cut your costs a whole bunch.

[DoubleBuck]

Graysmoke;
Your densities should be really high, given that. I use about the same procedure as you, on a two inch die, and get 1.7+ densities. For say 1.5 densities, I have to back off the pressure quite a bit.
If you have a target density in mind and don't know how to figure them, it is actually really easy. It is Pi times your die radius squared times the thickness of the puck divided by the weight of it. Most people list it in grams per CC. If you use inches and ounces, there are conversion tables with plug in numbers available on the internet. Factory powder and measures seem to be calculated at 1.7 grams per CC. Good luck!

[Graysmoke]

THANKS DOUBLE BUCK,
Ill check it out I use 20% more to equal factory in weight for the results I want at the range. Using western cedar when it is gone will try willow.

[lead chucker]

I have been using I believe its Flys die for puking my powder and have been using a 6 ton jack and it finally gave out so now i use a 20 ton jack because that's what i have. I like the 20 ton better its easier to use not sure at what pressure you do or dont get any more benefit. The six ton served me well not sure if there is any benefit from using more pressure. Im sure there is a point where enough is enough and too much is point less. Maybe some one here can shed some light on this. I like to think im doing every thing right to make good powder but always eager to get more educated on what works better

[HWooldridge]

I have been using I believe its Flys die for puking my powder and have been using a 6 ton jack and it finally gave out so now i use a 20 ton jack because that's what i have. I like the 20 ton better its easier to use not sure at what pressure you do or dont get any more benefit. The six ton served me well not sure if there is any benefit from using more pressure. Im sure there is a point where enough is enough and too much is point less. Maybe some one here can shed some light on this. I like to think im doing every thing right to make good powder but always eager to get more educated on what works better

I believe you are right about puck compression, it eventually reaches a point where the gain is not measurable in the final product. I have a 50 ton H-frame press, and cannot tell any difference between 15 ton and 30 ton passes - all the air space has been removed and there is nowhere else to go. The pucks are quite hard after a certain pressure point and don’t get any denser.

[nanuk]

I believe you are right about puck compression, it eventually reaches a point where the gain is not measurable in the final product. I have a 50 ton H-frame press, and cannot tell any difference between 15 ton and 30 ton passes - all the air space has been removed and there is nowhere else to go. The pucks are quite hard after a certain pressure point and don’t get any denser.

I Think a good test would be to weigh them for a g/cc measurement

also, take some at 6T and some at 15T and some at 30T. Grind them sift them, and using identical grinds, weigh them in a volumetric measure for comparison

then load 'em up and shoot them for velocity

One thing I've noticed, is folks getting excited about SDs and EDs, as if it means something.
I remember reading an article from a champion benchrester, and his comment was as long as the EDs don't exceed the SDs by a large margin, the gun will shoot well. Just because you can get a load down to 0FPS ED, or 0PSI ED, doesn't mean it will be accurate. You still have to prove it in the gun

is anyone here, who get low SD/ED, finding their accuracy noticably better than the higher SD/ED? In an accurate gun, we may be talking about 0.1" or less. Are you shooting for $millions$ in competition? or are you shooting for a deer heart?

I don't have access to a variety of powders, but I'd sure be interested in a comparison of accuracy/SD/ED between grades/brands.
does anyone have a link to such a study?

[nanuk]

Quoted his friend:

That meant something to me coming from him. He said he thought about making powder before but he builds flintlocks from scratch and doesn't really have the time.

I wonder if he'd trade a rifle for some BP?
is that even legal?

[dtknowles]

I Think ........I don't have access to a variety of powders, but I'd sure be interested in a comparison of accuracy/SD/ED between grades/brands.
does anyone have a link to such a study?

What is ED, I am guessing SD is Standard Deviation, is ED the maximum deviation, Extreme Deviation? The internet thinks ED is erectile disfunction

When calculating ED and SD do you throw out obviously bad data thinking it is equipment error to operator error.

Tim

[HamGunner]

I suppose we have a difference in terminology when you cross the national border as I have no idea what an ED stands for either.

I always learned that in calculating shot groups with a chronograph, one finds the ES or Extreme Spread, which is the number of Feet or Meters per second spread from the fastest shot in the group to the slowest. The SD or Standard Deviation is the spread from the average velocity of the group.

I Agree, chronograph numbers do not guarantee an accurate load, but if a low ES group is (decently) accurate, then it will certainly be much more accurate way down range, as the bullets start dropping due to gravity, than a much tighter group at that same sight in range, that showed an ES of much higher number. The load with high ES, even though it might be accurate up close, will show vertical stringing on down range and the grouping will suffer.

I have had plenty of tight groups at 100 yards that did not have good ES by any means. Likely they would not be so good at 300 yards.

And just the opposite, I have had just (fairly decent) groups at 100 yards that had very tight single digit ES. They will likely only maintain their (fairly decent) accuracy farther down range, but will likely be more accurate overall with little vertical stringing.

So I certainly do believe that a chronograph is very useful if used in the proper way. For any type of longer range shooting, a Ladder Test is how one can find his best load if done at more like 200 or more yards and that does not require a chronograph. But knowing the speed can certainly help calculate the drop downrange.

[2TM101]

not sure at what pressure you do or dont get any more benefit. The six ton served me well not sure if there is any benefit from using more pressure.

I have a 6 ton press and a 40mm puck die (dabpress) 40mm is actually just under 2 SqIn. So I'm getting 12000/2 = 6000 Psi pressure. By everything I have read this is far more than enough. However after pucking and corning - I still have dust coming off of it. I then spend 4-5 hours glazing it - and still dust. Not much, but commercial powder doesn't have any at all. Mind you it functions great, but the dust makes me think its still crumbling somehow and never fully plasticised. I have not tried graphite coating yet, but I do have the graphite. Will that finally make the dust go away? What am I missing here?

My understanding is that graphite coating isn't really needed in a low humidity environment and does not improve performance, but that all commercial BP is graphite coated - is is that where the dist will finally go away?

[HWooldridge]

I have a 6 ton press and a 40mm puck die (dabpress) 40mm is actually just under 2 SqIn. So I'm getting 12000/2 = 6000 Psi pressure. By everything I have read this is far more than enough. However after pucking and corning - I still have dust coming off of it. I then spend 4-5 hours glazing it - and still dust. Not much, but commercial powder doesn't have any at all. Mind you it functions great, but the dust makes me think its still crumbling somehow and never fully plasticised. I have not tried graphite coating yet, but I do have the graphite. Will that finally make the dust go away? What am I missing here?

My understanding is that graphite coating isn't really needed in a low humidity environment and does not improve performance, but that all commercial BP is graphite coated - is is that where the dist will finally go away?

I also get dust but just compress it again and go through the whole process as necessary to minimize, or I save and add it to the next batch. I think some dust is a normal byproduct.

[DoubleBuck]

In the 1800's, Waltham Abbey was considered the best small arms powder manufacturer in the world. With the British Government, they developed the standard loads for the 1853 Pattern Enfield rifle. It was '1.5f' grain size, with a density of 1.55 Grams per CC. The light density makes it fast burning, but that is moderated with the larger grain size.
Military Black Powder "Mil-P-223B POWDER-BLACK" requires Densities of 1.72 minimum and 1.80 maximum, on Glazed Powder.
Modern Commercial Small Arms Black Powder is standardized at 1.7 G/CC Density. As are most all of the commercial powder measures.
The tests I've done on strictly Density did show somewhat slower burn rates and velocities, from 1.5 to 1.8 G/CC, but not vast differences. Basically, an average of 30-40 FPS maximum on a 60 grain charge, PRB .58 caliber.
Grain size is a different story. Same rifle, same powder, same set up, equal densities; variances between 1.5f grain sizes to 3fff grain sizes are well over 150 FPS on 10 and 20 shot tests. The velocities on the .58 caliber varied over 100 FPS between 2ff and 3fff grain sizes alone. Or a difference on average, of 4.5% to 5.2% velocity increase, with the 3fff.
These were not scientific tests. They were the same powders made from the same batches, changing only grain size, or puck densities. I have observed very similar changes, from nothing but shooting on a different day.
Accuracy from nearly all the powders I have made have been good, but the best accuracy has been worked up at two to five grain changes to charge size, to find where each performed the best. And, they were nearly all different. My best has been a 10 shot group of 5 inches at 75 yards, with the .58. Six of those were within a 3" group. Same charges at 100 yards spread to over 10" on 10 shots. I have not made a point of working a specific 100 yard accuracy load.
I don't know if any of this will help anyone at all, but I throw it out as my own experiences.

[DoubleBuck]

2TM101;
In my experience, proper moisture in the pucking process is really important. Too little and the pucks will never quit breaking down. Too much and they don't properly adhere, either. Not saying this is your problem, but something to consider, if you have tried everything else.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=nanuk;5653582]I Think a good test would be to weigh them for a g/cc measurement

also, take some at 6T and some at 15T and some at 30T. Grind them sift them, and using identical grinds, weigh them in a volumetric measure for comparison

then load 'em up and shoot them for velocity

One thing I've noticed, is folks getting excited about SDs and EDs, as if it means something.

Whats it mean?? A low Extreme Spread number means EVERYTHING I did to get there was consistent - and repeatable - I think it is super important. Does it mean accuracy? maybe - maybe not - we go to load development for that - ladder tests - whatever you think is best - but without consistency all along the way - how can we expect the best accuracy? I dont know the numbers but I reckon 60 - 80 FPS variation in a string (common enough if you get a little casual with some part of the process) likely translates to noticeable difference in drop at say 600yards ----so I want to know 1) is my velocity up to standard - 2) what is the extreme spread for the load chain I assemble 3) what dumb thing did I do that changed that 10fps ES into 89fps ---if we fix (3) we can change (2)

[indian joe]

I have a 6 ton press and a 40mm puck die (dabpress) 40mm is actually just under 2 SqIn. So I'm getting 12000/2 = 6000 Psi pressure. By everything I have read this is far more than enough. However after pucking and corning - I still have dust coming off of it. I then spend 4-5 hours glazing it - and still dust. Not much, but commercial powder doesn't have any at all. Mind you it functions great, but the dust makes me think its still crumbling somehow and never fully plasticised. I have not tried graphite coating yet, but I do have the graphite. Will that finally make the dust go away? What am I missing here?

My understanding is that graphite coating isn't really needed in a low humidity environment and does not improve performance, but that all commercial BP is graphite coated - is is that where the dist will finally go away?

Graphite may help with dust some - I have been shooting un graphited powder since 1994 (Goex 5FA initially, then some chinese, now homebrew) the big difference is how much easier the graphited stuff measures - even in a dipper measure you need to pay attention much more with ungraphited - however - graphite dont burn, so the powder is slower ( about - 5% velocity when we tested) and it adds some to the fouling -
I have homebrew stuff here made in 2015 (both pucked and screened versions) dust and grain structure decomposition has not showed as a problem.

2% dextrin in the screened

thorough moisture incorporation for pucks - I cannot get that to work by spritxing into a bowl and mixing it - need to make the stirred mix up into dough balls and then grate it back through a 16mesh screen and mix again - without this double process I got spotty pucks = little damp spots and little dry er sections between. You cannot do too good of a job with moisture incorporation in pucks cuz using so little of it (H2O)

Diligent screening of the grained powder, shake it and shake it and only a shallow layer over the screen at the time.