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Thread: My homemade black powder

  1. #4221
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGS View Post
    I am going to talk to a friend that use to make Rocket Fuel with the sugar.
    He gave me 6 bottles of stump remover when he stopped doing it.
    But what I remember, the rocket fuel burned way slower than the BP did.
    But that was burning in a more solid form like mixed hot and poured into the rocket body.
    The mix of potassium nitrate and powdered sugar used for rocket fuel is either rammed tightly into the rocket motor, or melted and poured into the motor, in both cases forming a solid "grain" of fuel. This then burns at a rate slower than our black powder, though a solid grain of black powder can also be used for a rocket motor. In fact, this is how the Estes brand of hobby model rocket motors are made; with black powder.

    While the mix of KNO3 and powdered sugar itself might not burn as quickly as conventional black powder, the interesting question is: Does the addition of a small amount of powdered sugar make our BP better in any way??

    It seems like such a simple and obvious query that we CAN'T be the first to propose it, but we still won't know 'till we try...

    ;~)

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  2. #4222
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    Well, there's this:
    https://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/t...-black-powder/

    But then the pyro guys usually aren't looking to improve black powder for the most part. They use it mostly for "lift" charges, whereby even poor black powder generally works just fine from what I can gather. If they're not getting high enough "lift", they can just add some more powder to the charge.

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  3. #4223
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    Well, more interesting stuff. This time mentioning the use of sugar and rust in black powder.
    https://thefiringline.com/forums/arc...?t-450177.html

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  4. #4224
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMonkey View Post
    Great work and excellent report Almar!

    Can you tell us whether there is anything different in the way it feels when crushed in the hand, or maybe even the way it smells?

    Does it seem to be softer than Char made at the higher temperatures?
    It does feel softer and has a brown color.

  5. #4225
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    My objective is to perfect the making of my personal BP for the purposes of muzzle loading. KNO3 and Sulphur are the easiest ingredients to procure nowadays, with a little research you can find some with very good quality high purity, these are not the problem. Charcoal seems to be the most variable ingredient and difficult to make and optimize for the specific purpose of muzzleloading. The poudrerie D'aubonne in Switzerland go to great lengths to describe how much care they put in fabricating their charcoal and detail even what season they cut the trees to maximize the sap content before curing the wood. There are also several woods one can use to make good BP, it could be that these companies choose the wood based on availability and cost as well. The wood I have most available is black willow and possibly others as well.

    I view the charcoal as the "gas" and the other ingredients as the engine. By varying the KNO3 to charcoal ratio you can either run the mix lean or rich and there is an optimal point where the ratio will yield the most power output. Put too much KnO3 and you wont have enough gas, put too little and you wont have enough to burn the available charcoal. A good clean rich F1 racecar "gas" will give the best results If all other technical aspects of making BP are done well such as sufficient milling, corning, screening and polishing. Once the Charcoal is the best it can be, then you can maybe add more KNo3 to optimize if required.

    As we all know, Firework BP, blasting BP and muzzleloading BP are quite different because they have to do different things. You can use either one in muzzleloading but only one will be optimized, and there is the challenge. Right now, I think that charcoal is the key. As I have found these days it is very much an art form to make right now, applying the heat too directly, too long, too hot will give different results. Imagine what it take to be consistent. I took notes of heat level, time and temperature in order to better replicate and fine tune the next batch. It kind of reminds me of roasting coffee, it seems straightforward at first but there is a learning curve and it take time to dial it in to perceived perfection.
    Last edited by almar; 09-17-2021 at 10:24 AM.

  6. #4226
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linstrum View Post
    What I figured out in a hurry for splitting wood into clothespin size pieces for roasting was to first saw my wood into "biscuits", and then use my large size tree trimming lopping shears to split the biscuits into sticks. That way, I didn't have to use my little roof shingler's hatchet and risk my fingers. I also didn't have to go all over the place picking up what I split, and then clean the dirt off. I split my wood inside on my kitchen floor, with one handle of the lopping shear on the floor, and operating just one handle. It goes pretty fast, and I can control exactly where I want the wood to split at. I cut the thickness of the biscuits to match how far the lopping shear blades open up. I still pull my fingers back before "chomping" down on the wood.

    I've been shooting, casting, reloading, chopping firewood, running power saws and chainsaws and a sawmill, running cattle, driving dozers, operating a milling machine and lathe, and making black powder, some of that stuff going back to 1958, and none of it has got me yet. Yet - - - sometimes I wonder why NOT yet.
    Thats good advice, ill get one of those shears tommorrow, always happy to get a new tool. There are a few machines that instill a little fear in me when i use them, one is the table saw, the other is my lathe. Ive seen the horrible gore that a lathe can cause...it kinda changes you. Unfortunately i dont fear many other tools the same way...those are the ones that get you.

  7. #4227
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    I may try the sugar thing one day but i'm not in a huge hurry because i really doubt it will do much good just based on the fact that in all the years of making BP and BP substitutes it was never used.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Maybe im wrong but you have to trust a little in those that came before you and we really aren't breaking new ground here, we are simply trying to figure out, as best as we can, what others have done so well. Until we can match these top shelf commercial guys with standard black powder performance, there is plenty we can do with what we have.


    By the way, just as an added note, the black willow charcoal that looks brown on that paper has an ash content of 0.52/30 = 1.9%
    Last edited by almar; 09-17-2021 at 12:24 PM.

  8. #4228
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    Yes, I was wrong about Triple 7 having sugar content. It was "Clear Shot" black powder sub, once made by Goex that did so.

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  9. #4229
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    Quote from Almar:
    By the way, just as an added note, the black willow charcoal that looks brown on that paper has an ash content of 0.52/30 = 1.9%
    By golly, you've just shown us all that the highly guarded "Secrets" of Charcoal Making for the best possible Black Powder can be done at home with a little specialized equipment and patience!

    Choosing the right sort of wood certainly plays an important part in the process but Temperature Control seems the most critical procedure of all in keeping the Charcoal from losing what makes it really good.

    Yes indeed, as has been written many, many times by those in earlier times who knew, Charcoal is surely the most important ingredient in Black Powder.

    Now we have a much clearer idea of why that is so.

    I think it is safe to say that all of us here are eagerly looking forward to your continued testing of your Black Powder to see what sort of differences in performance it may manifest.

    Could it be that History is, in a sense, being made?

  10. #4230
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    previous powder with the unmonitored plum wood charcoal cook:

    25 grains volume fff, 220gr Johnson and dow
    1-676 fps
    2-669 fps
    3-656 fps
    4-633 fps
    5-696 fps
    average 666 fps, stdev 23.44 fps

    Swiss FFFG same projectile same powder measure

    1-764 fps
    2-755 fps
    3-755 fps
    4-758 fps
    5-791 fps

    average 764.6 fps stdev 15.21 fps

    This powder with the same mix as the first one and the same powder measure and bullet, with the controlled brown charcoal black willow:

    1-728fps
    2-706 fps

    I only fired 2 shots as a quick test, i am still corning and screening and drying.

    The mix i used is:

    0.76 KNO3
    0.14 harcoal
    0.10 sulphur

    I could try to increase the KNO3 like the swiss company did, but this is pretty close to their results. An this is the most clean burning powder i made so far.

  11. #4231
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    Nice work, nice reporting, and congrats!

    Thanks as well!

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  12. #4232
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    Thanks Vett! Im going to try 77-13-10 and see what happens...

  13. #4233
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    It's always worth a try/test. It's amazing what "enquiring minds" can discover!

    Good luck, and let us know.

    Just when you think this thread can't get any better, it does!

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  14. #4234
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    I can't help but wonder too though, what might happen if you sacrificed a little sulphur instead of charcoal in your recipe. The charcoal is the fuel and the sulphur more an "enabler" as I see it, though I realize your thought process is in searching for stoichiometry of the KNO3/Charcoal mix. It's all good theory, conjecture, and experimentation though. Who's to say there's "nothing new"?? I don't believe that...

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  15. #4235
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    Man, in thinking about the difficulty in maintaining the right temp for charring, I believe a PID controlled ceramics kiln might be just the ticket.

    And dammit! My brother had one they never used, got tired of moving it around and "kicking" it out of his way, and threw it out!!

    AARRGGHH...

    ;~)

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  16. #4236
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    Quote Originally Posted by almar View Post
    previous powder with the unmonitored plum wood charcoal cook:

    25 grains volume fff, 220gr Johnson and dow
    1-676 fps
    2-669 fps
    3-656 fps
    4-633 fps
    5-696 fps
    average 666 fps, stdev 23.44 fps

    Swiss FFFG same projectile same powder measure

    1-764 fps
    2-755 fps
    3-755 fps
    4-758 fps
    5-791 fps

    average 764.6 fps stdev 15.21 fps

    This powder with the same mix as the first one and the same powder measure and bullet, with the controlled brown charcoal black willow:

    1-728fps
    2-706 fps

    I only fired 2 shots as a quick test, i am still corning and screening and drying.

    The mix i used is:

    0.76 KNO3
    0.14 harcoal
    0.10 sulphur

    I could try to increase the KNO3 like the swiss company did, but this is pretty close to their results. An this is the most clean burning powder i made so far.
    did you weigh your charge? Swiss weighs heavy (the rumor says) If you only measured by volume you proly already beat Swiss

  17. #4237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vettepilot View Post
    I can't help but wonder too though, what might happen if you sacrificed a little sulphur instead of charcoal in your recipe. The charcoal is the fuel and the sulphur more an "enabler" as I see it, though I realize your thought process is in searching for stoichiometry of the KNO3/Charcoal mix. It's all good theory, conjecture, and experimentation though. Who's to say there's "nothing new"?? I don't believe that...

    Vettepilot
    sulphur regulates ignition temperature - increase sulphur makes flintlock priming powder catch easier (dont know by how much but "they" say it works) lower sulphur should work in a capgun or cartridge. FWIW I reckon there is more to be gained from refining the process than from fiddling with the chemistry. My Top priority is consistency and clean burn - for that I would give away a little velocity or density if I had to

  18. #4238
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    Yeah its all by weight but I got about the same density now. I did say volume on the first list and that was just a copy paste from my previous post, but this current powder was 25 gr weight, so was swiss which is 1 for 1 for the volume measure, ie 30gr is 30gr weight on my measure.

  19. #4239
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    OK! More velocity, less carbon.
    I adjusted the mix yesterday for more KNO3 for a resulting 77-13-10, compressed, corned, screened and dried 2 pucks worth.
    This is the result:

    Everything same as before, measured by weight to 25 grains under a 220gr J&D bullet:

    1-761 fps
    2-744 fps
    3-735 fps

    average is 747 fps STDEV is 13.2 fps.

    This is still unpolished powder.

    One thing I noticed with this powder is that if forms very small kno3 pearls when burnt in open air, unlike the mix that was richer in charcoal. Now you would think, hey, this is an inefficient burn but I am thinking that because the combustion in a pressurized environment is more efficient, the additional Kno3 IS being used and leaves less carbon residue. Another thing that distinguishes muzzleloading powder from powder intended for other uses.
    Last edited by almar; 09-19-2021 at 10:52 AM.

  20. #4240
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    Quote from Almar: "after about 1 hour I have a very nice charcoal with a distinct brown color. Smearing it on white paper give a similar color than the swiss charcoal. This is black willow"

    I too noticed that lots of my Black Willow gave a mostly brown color charcoal. Apparently some in the middle of my can, heated inside my 20 lb. Lee casting furnace, got cooked closer to the proper temperature, but around the edges of the can the color was darker. Next time I char I will attempt to keep the temperature under 600 degrees by monitoring it with my lead casting thermometer and in if I can manage it, a container inside another container to help even out the heat and see how that works out.

    I have some fireworks grade airfloat charcoal that I have had for many years, that I used for making 4th of July salutes, and it is very black. I tested some yesterday for ash content and it came out at 18% compared to my 9% for my first try at Black Willow. Hopefully I can knock my Black Willow percentage way down next time. I might go out this evening and scrounge up some more Black Willow wood and give it a try. I have been using hanging dead branches that is mostly dried out already, but this spring I will wait until the sap starts to flow so I can more easily remove the bark and secure a good quantity to let season out for later use.

    With my first batch of Black Willow powder I compared it to Goex. I was shooting my .36 cal. Pietta 1851 using round ball and using the same charge by weight of both powders. My Black Willow with 9% ash beat Goex by well over 100 fps, but I only shot three shots of each so I really did not have enough data to tell about the deviation in velocity. But that did show me that I was gaining a bit. Now the volume to weight ratio was denser with the Goex, but hopefully I can level the playing field a bit with my next batch of Black Willow powder by increasing the mill time, increasing the compression time, and by tumbling the granules to make them more uniform and screening a second time to hopefully increase the density.
    Last edited by HamGunner; 09-19-2021 at 01:35 PM.
    73 de n0ubx, Rick
    NRA Benefactor Life Member/VFW Life Member

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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