My homemade black powder

[DoubleBuck]

lbrowning;
"It was still quite crumbly and the finished product seems too fine."
If you screen the damp powder, try to spread it out enough that it doesn't have to be disturbed while drying it. Leave the 'extruded' grains of powder as whole as they can stay, until dry. They should be hard enough to withstand screening them to the size you desire, without falling to dust, which you will invariably get some of. Recycle the fines back into your next batch or reprocess them, would be my suggestion. It sounds to me like you let it get too fine, before it was completely dry enough to let the dextrin do it's thing. If that is the case, I would think rewetting it and rescreening it would be necessary, to get it to perform for you.

[mmb617]

Yesterday I got a chance to do a little chrono work with my homemade black powder. I'm very much satisfied with how it works for my purposes as I'm not a hunter and only target shoot, but still I was curious how my stuff matched up to Goex. I had previously gotten the numbers with Goex in my Traditions Deerhunter .50 caliber with 24" barrel and used the same gun to test with my powder.

I normally shoot 50 gr of 3f using a .490 round ball and .015 pre-lubed patch. With Goex I averaged 1334 fps at that load. My homemade stuff averaged 1127 fps with the same 50 gr. So it is down on power some, but not enough for me to worry about it.

I then tried some shots upping my homemade powder to 60 gr and got an average of 1282 fps.

Since I'm perfectly happy with the results I get using 50 gr of my stuff I'll just stay with that. I don't see the benefit of burning more powder than that.

I've been using my own 3f for the charge and my 4f in the pan and both have performed well with ignition every bit as good as I was getting with the Goex.

I did notice something that I thought was odd at first but after thinking about it I think I know the cause. As I started to get near the bottom of my powder flask the speeds seemed to be creeping up. When the flask was empty and I refilled it the speeds came back down a bit. When I made my first batches of powder I was having trouble getting it to flow properly and realized I wasn't getting enough of the fines screened out, so I changed my screening process and now it flows much better. Some of my powder still has more fines mixed in than I like from those first batches. Those fines tend to settle to the bottom of the flask and are last out. This is confirmed by the last couple loads not flowing well, but I think that also makes those last couple loads denser and thus more powerful. At least that's my thought.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Tried some of my screened BP with a single-shot pistol; weak as a kitten. It went "pffft" and I think I heard the ball bounce off the cardboard target. I think I could have thrown it harder. I made the BP with cedar pet bedding charcoal, ball-milled, added dextrin, wetted and forced through a strainer. It was still quite crumbly and the finished product seems too fine. I think I was afraid to get it too wet. Can I repeat this step? Ideas? This is my first try; fun, but I was hoping for more!

Screened is a lot less dense. In my 50cal I use 120gr of screened which is about the same as 80gr corned.

[Vettepilot]

I had never considered the heating of the compressed air as a possible ignition source for that accident. That is easy to test, easy to orgenaise prevention once you know the source of the hazard.
This gives me a chance to plug one of the best youTube channels of all - clickspring. This little relevant video is using that principle in a firestarter, but anyone who loves the workshop and ancient technology should scope all his work.

Yeah, that's the thing. That's a nice little fire starter. We're making our own here though.

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

Yesterday I got a chance to do a little chrono work with my homemade black powder. I'm very much satisfied with how it works for my purposes as I'm not a hunter and only target shoot, but still I was curious how my stuff matched up to Goex. I had previously gotten the numbers with Goex in my Traditions Deerhunter .50 caliber with 24" barrel and used the same gun to test with my powder.

I normally shoot 50 gr of 3f using a .490 round ball and .015 pre-lubed patch. With Goex I averaged 1334 fps at that load. My homemade stuff averaged 1127 fps with the same 50 gr. So it is down on power some, but not enough for me to worry about it.

I then tried some shots upping my homemade powder to 60 gr and got an average of 1282 fps.

Since I'm perfectly happy with the results I get using 50 gr of my stuff I'll just stay with that. I don't see the benefit of burning more powder than that.

I've been using my own 3f for the charge and my 4f in the pan and both have performed well with ignition every bit as good as I was getting with the Goex.

I did notice something that I thought was odd at first but after thinking about it I think I know the cause. As I started to get near the bottom of my powder flask the speeds seemed to be creeping up. When the flask was empty and I refilled it the speeds came back down a bit. When I made my first batches of powder I was having trouble getting it to flow properly and realized I wasn't getting enough of the fines screened out, so I changed my screening process and now it flows much better. Some of my powder still has more fines mixed in than I like from those first batches. Those fines tend to settle to the bottom of the flask and are last out. This is confirmed by the last couple loads not flowing well, but I think that also makes those last couple loads denser and thus more powerful. At least that's my thought.

I find that if I get the powder wet enough to hand compress together real well, and have a touch of a shine to it when balled up and hand compressed, I tend to get more 2fg. When I make it a hair drier, to where it just barely sticks together, then I get more 3fg screened powder. Of course, that's with my (fairly fine) granulating screen. And when I do it drier like that, I end up with more dust that has to be re-granulated.

But yeah, it's gotta dry well for sure. Around 85 degrees here, with under 20% humidity just now. With those conditions, I dry it spread out well in a plastic pan for 2 days in the hot truck with both windows open about 2", A cheap plastic kitty litter box works great for this.

Edit: Actually, this post was more meant for lbrowning...

Vettepilot

[almar]

Clickspring's channel has been in my favorites for some time. I'm a hobby machinist so his work is inspiring. To say the least. I'm a structural stress engineer and my passion is mechanics so I can binge watch his entire video collection and I have as I have with other machinist channels. I don't think dieseling can be discarded as the cause for now if his little piston can produce an ember. One of the most compelling reality checks experienced engineers discover early on is the disparity between theory and reality. And that's why we have safety factors that we can only reduce with a ton of well planned testing.

This last week, I ran a lot of testing between different powders with different densities and compositions. I found that my powder is more efficient in a 7.5 inch barrel than Swiss and cleaner. But with max volume in 45lc Swiss just about reaches my powder but with more powder weight. So the question is how will this pan out in a longer barrel? I couldn't wait the 2 years to get the shiloh sharps so I just got a 1873 20 inch winchester version from cimarron. I think Swiss makes a 3f that is suited for a broader range of use than mine. The ability to make your own BP is phenomenal because you can tune it to your needs.

From a machinist and engineers perspective I'm a little disappointed in cimarrons saa offering via pitta, the cylinder bushing is press fit, so to adjust endshake, I need to drill out the cylinder bushing and machine a new one. This may be my test gun. A better one from standard manufacturing may be ordered, maybe not. I did a lot of work on this SAA and the action is smooth similar to my '84 python, but as you observe details, the pieta cut corners on some things. Unlike the percussion models the springs are at least well rounded on the edges reducing the stress risers that are a big problem for spring cylcle life, but many other details pop up like fit and finish and materials. You get what you pay for, the question is, will you need the extra? Not convinced that I will for this gun, but a good nice 4140 steel SAA like standard mfg would be a piece you could be proud to own.

[SeaMonkey]

I wonder which type of Muzzleloader is most susceptible to the spontaneous combustion of the powder charge while ramming the ball (or boolit) home?

Caplock? Flintlock?

Is it possible somehow for the touch hole or the flame channel of the nipple to become totally blocked to prevent air escape while ramming?

Or could it be a case of putting a second charge on top of an already present, unfired, charge?

Wouldn't the increase in force needed to seat the ball, or boolit, be instantly recognizable?

I reckon to find the real answer to the enigma that a series of tests would need to be performed to evaluate the possibilities.

One can only wonder whether such tests have already been done at some point in history...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

A couple of hours later:

I found a few articles and discussion regarding premature ignition of the powder charge and it seems "rapid firing" and a "hot barrel" or "glowing ember" are the most frequent causes.

It happened more often than thought possible in early battles or training exercises where rapid firing of the muzzleloaders occurred.

[Vettepilot]

Well, if it is indeed compression heating/combustion as Indian Joe suggests might be possible, a hot barrel would very highly increase the chances of it happening. Scary stuff! Wouldn't that just be about the rudest surprise!??!

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

As regards to whether the compression ratio would be enough for compression ignition; I think there's more to it than just the compression ratio itself.

For example: Depending on the bore size, barrel length, caliber, powder charge column height, etc., I've calculated the compression ratio of a muzzle loader on loading to be a very rough approximate of 10:1. Is that enough? I say, "It depends, but certainly could be." The compression fire-starter I'm making has a much lower compression ratio due to being much shorter. However, it does work! BUT---> it must be operated very quickly/briskly. If you just push the plunger in slowly, nothing happens. But if you ram that plunger in fast, it'll light that char cloth right up. And that's with it cold. A hot rifle barrel with a long (loading) plunge, I postulate, could be a more efficient fire starter than my purpose built Fire-Starter!!

This, of course, assumes that the "system" is air tight by having the nipple closed off, and a tight projectile being rammed.

Anything being compressed can heat. Just try touching the discharge tube on your lowly air compressor head some time. (No, don't!)

Just my passing thoughts...

Vettepilot

[almar]

If you want feedback on this make a thread about it. Put it out there. You're casting for bass in a bluegill pond.

[Vettepilot]

Naw. Just a passing thought/comment to address an earlier post here about compression ratio.

The subject has, however, made me consider using a nipple pick before loading each time!

Vettepilot

[DoubleBuck]

I have never shot 'legal' competitions, nor professionally. So, I don't necessarily have to be in a hurry, or shoot rapidly.
Given that, I love to shoot BP and making my own powder has given me the opportunity to shoot a lot, just on comparative tests. One of the things I determined to do in the beginning was swab between shots and I still do that, to try to even the playing field for every shot and to make it easier on the rifle and I've always thought it was a good thing not to pour powder in a hot barrel with any chance of a glowing ember of carbon.
My questions and quests took me to a few guys who have shot 'legal' competitions and professionally and they were kind enough to share a lot of what I consider great information.
In the past three years I have done most all the swabs damp with Windex with Vinegar. Until I made this last 'brown' Black Willow powder, which stayed so moist after firing, I was able to swab ten shots, with one swab, and the last felt no different than the first. I used only a bit of pure Sheep's Wool Lanolin smeared on the swab once and changed it at ten shots, because I had let the rifle cool down, for several minutes.
Back in the summer, I shot over 100 shots in two days, in just about exactly 100° heat. My rifle was probably 120-130° just laying in the direct sun, on the table. It got hot enough after about five shots, that I noticed I had made the shot, half cocked and flipped the cap, wrote the chronograph speed down and recorded the strike location, and when I ran the swab, there was still a lot of smoke in the barrel, even after that much time. It was hot but the residue was never baked, and remained 'greasy', throughout the day.
Which leads me to my point that I would think as long as that residue is not coming out baked, the chances of an ember burning would be fairly small, and swabbing the barrel would surely help kill any that may be smoldering, with the ability to cause a cook off.

If you are shooting competitively, you may not be afforded those luxuries, but I would not be shooting if I figured in any way there could be an ember in a chamber, or a chamber hot enough to gas powder packed against it.
For anyone who does do it, I would be interested to hear what you are allowed to do, between shots.

[Vettepilot]

My thought has always been that if a rifle were powder charged with an ember or glowing particle left, the uncompressed powder would go "WHOOOSH!!" right then. Not wait until you were ramming a projectile.

This idea of a gun going off while ramming a projectile, however, lends itself more to the "compression ignition" theory. I think...

Again, just my thoughts.

Vettepilot

[Nobade]

If anyone here owns a fire piston or wants to make one it seems as if you were to put one particle of powder in it and use it you could see if it would ignite powder without much danger. And thanks for mentioning those, I had been meaning to make one and sort of forgotten about it.

[DoubleBuck]

My thought has always been that if a rifle were powder charged with an ember or glowing particle left, the uncompressed powder would go "WHOOOSH!!" right then. Not wait until you were ramming a projectile.

This idea of a gun going off while ramming a projectile, however, lends itself more to the "compression ignition" theory. I think...

Again, just my thoughts.

Vettepilot

Vettepilot;
You may be right. Compression raises temperature. I said my thoughts a few posts back. In a hot barrel, it takes less compression to reach ignition temperature than a cold barrel. I've seen a lit match lay burning on powder until it went out, many times and it didn't light. So, that ember may not light that powder laying on it until the ramming process is in action. Others may have experienced a cook off as soon as the powder was poured in the barrel. I've never experienced either and don't plan to, if I can help it.
Which brings up another point on impact or compression ignition.
I have stated before, that a friend of mine bet me a half gram of powder wouldn't go off hitting it with a hammer, and I bet him it could and would. We hit it several times, laying on solid steel, with a 12 pound maul and it never went off. Again, I am definitely not saying it's impossible. I'm saying I did it several times, believing it not only could, but would, and it didn't. My false belief cost me ten dollars. I've also shot a can of black powder with a rifle and it didn't go off. I've seen others post comments even on this forum, on both subjects and have not read of anyone being successful, to this point, on either.
You may be able to ram a bullet down a barrel and cause a spontaneous combustion of powder. And you may be able to do it with a cold barrel never shot. I don't know, but I know I would worry about it a heck of a lot more in a hot barrel freshly fired, than not.

[indian joe]

I have never shot 'legal' competitions, nor professionally. So, I don't necessarily have to be in a hurry, or shoot rapidly.
Given that, I love to shoot BP and making my own powder has given me the opportunity to shoot a lot, just on comparative tests. One of the things I determined to do in the beginning was swab between shots and I still do that, to try to even the playing field for every shot and to make it easier on the rifle and I've always thought it was a good thing not to pour powder in a hot barrel with any chance of a glowing ember of carbon.
My questions and quests took me to a few guys who have shot 'legal' competitions and professionally and they were kind enough to share a lot of what I consider great information.
In the past three years I have done most all the swabs damp with Windex with Vinegar. Until I made this last 'brown' Black Willow powder, which stayed so moist after firing, I was able to swab ten shots, with one swab, and the last felt no different than the first. I used only a bit of pure Sheep's Wool Lanolin smeared on the swab once and changed it at ten shots, because I had let the rifle cool down, for several minutes.
Back in the summer, I shot over 100 shots in two days, in just about exactly 100° heat. My rifle was probably 120-130° just laying in the direct sun, on the table. It got hot enough after about five shots, that I noticed I had made the shot, half cocked and flipped the cap, wrote the chronograph speed down and recorded the strike location, and when I ran the swab, there was still a lot of smoke in the barrel, even after that much time. It was hot but the residue was never baked, and remained 'greasy', throughout the day.
Which leads me to my point that I would think as long as that residue is not coming out baked, the chances of an ember burning would be fairly small, and swabbing the barrel would surely help kill any that may be smoldering, with the ability to cause a cook off.

If you are shooting competitively, you may not be afforded those luxuries, but I would not be shooting if I figured in any way there could be an ember in a chamber, or a chamber hot enough to gas powder packed against it.
For anyone who does do it, I would be interested to hear what you are allowed to do, between shots.

I have farmed all my life - accidents happen when guys get tired or in too much hurry - so we see machinery "accidents" (the result of careless hurried effort) in the later stages of harvest and seeding more than at the start when everyone is fresh.

our ML competitions on paper are 30 minutes for a ten or thirteen shot event, rondyvoo events shot at gongs and other such novelty targets (usually 5 shots) are shot in rotation - either way there is plenty of time to load carefully away from the action .

There used to be speed events at most shoots - a skirmish, clays on a board, cut the stake, etc leaves the door open to accidents but the worst I have seen from that is a couple of ramrods shot up the range - (how you would forget to remove the ramrod when you already have hold of it is a puzzle to me but they did it)

I was never much interested in these speed events with a ML - pleased to see them fade away - I reckon do that stuff with cartridge guns.

So No - the need for speed is not what caused these preignitions with slug guns

[DoubleBuck]

Indian Joe;
Thank you, for the info, it was excellent! And, ruling out the need for speed, then I guess it shows it can be done, for sure. That's very interesting.

[DoubleBuck]

I want to test some of THAT powder!

[indian joe]

As regards to whether the compression ratio would be enough for compression ignition; I think there's more to it than just the compression ratio itself.

For example: Depending on the bore size, barrel length, caliber, powder charge column height, etc., I've calculated the compression ratio of a muzzle loader on loading to be a very rough approximate of 10:1. Is that enough? I say, "It depends, but certainly could be." The compression fire-starter I'm making has a much lower compression ratio due to being much shorter. However, it does work! BUT---> it must be operated very quickly/briskly. If you just push the plunger in slowly, nothing happens. But if you ram that plunger in fast, it'll light that char cloth right up. And that's with it cold. A hot rifle barrel with a long (loading) plunge, I postulate, could be a more efficient fire starter than my purpose built Fire-Starter!!

This, of course, assumes that the "system" is air tight by having the nipple closed off, and a tight projectile being rammed.

Anything being compressed can heat. Just try touching the discharge tube on your lowly air compressor head some time. (No, don't!)

Just my passing thoughts...

Vettepilot

I'd proly give it a higher number - say a 32 inch barrel - we short start it a couple inches (slug gun already has a false muzzle) so 30inches compressed down to almost nothing - the slug is a neat fit and greased so its like a cork or a well fitted piston in the cylinder - seal the nipple - ram it fast = kaboom is entirely possible.

[indian joe]

If you want feedback on this make a thread about it. Put it out there. You're casting for bass in a bluegill pond.

when and where I like