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Thread: My homemade black powder

  1. #6481
    Boolit Master
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    HWooldridge;
    I also tried some big grape vine a few years ago. It was also strong but dirty, for me. But, all I used was off the big part of the vine. It may have been different off a smaller section.
    Also, that was several years ago, and I have made a lot of changes to the way I do almost every step, so I may get much better results today.
    You might run an ash test on it and if that looks good try some out. I didn't even know to do an ash test, when I tested the Grapevine.

  2. #6482
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleBuck View Post
    HWooldridge;
    I also tried some big grape vine a few years ago. It was also strong but dirty, for me. But, all I used was off the big part of the vine. It may have been different off a smaller section.
    Also, that was several years ago, and I have made a lot of changes to the way I do almost every step, so I may get much better results today.
    You might run an ash test on it and if that looks good try some out. I didn't even know to do an ash test, when I tested the Grapevine.
    DB, I have two charcoal cans so I can make some of each and run an ash test. Based on what you said about size, I may cut some of the 1” stuff instead of the large trunks.

  3. #6483
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    Well, if it doesn't make good powder, it does make tasty beer.

    Take some grapevine chips, put them in the oven at 425ish until they start looking toasted and get really aromatic. Put those chips in the wort boil for the last 30 minutes and/or put them in the fermenter (not the same chips) after fermentation for a couple weeks.

  4. #6484
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    Sounds like Spatten Optimator. They use grape vine wood to toast the grain for that beer if I'm not mistaken.

  5. #6485
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    I found some dead stuff on the main vine that was about 2” diameter. It was dry but not punky or wormy; cooked down just fine. Now, I’ll bust up the pieces and make a small batch of powder. Will be interesting to see how it turns out.

  6. #6486
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    Chronograph question

    I recently downloaded a round ball ballistics calculator here:

    http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_...allistics.html

    This calculator shows a .490" PBR with a Muzzle Velocity of 1400 fps falls to 1358 fps, at 5 yards. So 42 fps at 15 feet.
    My question is, can anyone tell if that is fairly accurate? I set my chrono at 15 feet and I have always added 15fps to the .570 speeds. Don't know about the .490". That is a pretty substantial difference. If true, I am getting 1600 to 1650 fps with 60 grains of home made powder. Over 1750 fps with 75 grains.

  7. #6487
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    I don't know, but 42fps in 15 feet is a pretty big difference. Do you happen to know anyone with one of those fancy lab radars? That would give you the answer.
    Last edited by HighUintas; 12-08-2022 at 11:19 PM.

  8. #6488
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    Hmm.
    I am wondering if that Patch has anything to do with the sudden drop in the FPS.
    If it does in the first 15 feet , then does the ball retain the FPS better once the patch is totally off the ball.
    Check the FPS at 20 or 25 feet for comparison.

  9. #6489
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    HighUintas;
    I don't know anyone with the radar you mention. I downloaded that calculator to see some ballistics. I was surprised about several of the stats. Like a 1400 fps MV .490 PRB sighted at 50 yards falling 69.5 inches at 200. No wonder I can't hit anything!

    LAGS;
    The calculator shows 1400 MV to drop to 1334 at 21 feet (7 yards) and 1318 at 27 feet (9 yards). So that is 82 fps drop in 27 feet. It may be totally accurate, but is very surprising to me. It shows just 1058 at 50 yards and just 904 at 100 yards.
    1700 fps MV drops to 1647 at 5 yards.
    Last edited by DoubleBuck; 12-09-2022 at 03:50 AM.

  10. #6490
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    DB,

    Several years ago, I read a book on Hawken rifles and (if I recall correctly) the writer had the opportunity to shoot an original .62 caliber with a very slow twist - maybe 1 turn in 120". They worked up to about 150-170 grs of powder with a PRB and discovered it was zeroed for approximately 200 yds. They theorized it was primarily used on large game, so the owner probably knew where it shot at other ranges and held off accordingly. The kill zone on a buffalo or elk was also large enough that a small margin of error would still make a kill shot.

    I knew a guy who had a .58 with a 1 in 72" barrel and I seem to remember he used 120 grs as a hunting load. He wasn't a very large man and it was fun to see him touch off a heavy load.

  11. #6491
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGS View Post
    Hmm.
    I am wondering if that Patch has anything to do with the sudden drop in the FPS.
    If it does in the first 15 feet , then does the ball retain the FPS better once the patch is totally off the ball.
    Check the FPS at 20 or 25 feet for comparison.
    I always set my chrony up at maximum distance away (twenty feet I think - its an RCBS with the readout part on a cable) - did not want the patch a)confusing the readout b) impaction bits of the chrony at sufficient velocity to do damage

  12. #6492
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    [QUOTE=DoubleBuck;5498507]HighUintas;
    I don't know anyone with the radar you mention. I downloaded that calculator to see some ballistics. I was surprised about several of the stats. Like a 1400 fps MV .490 PRB sighted at 50 yards falling 69.5 inches at 200. No wonder I can't hit anything!

    LAGS;
    The calculator shows 1400 MV to drop to 1227 at 20 feet and 1188 at 25 feet. So that is 212 fps drop in 25 feet.

    It may be totally accurate, but is very surprising to me. I think you misread (or they misprinted) feet where yards should be


    It shows just 1058 at 50 yards and just 904 at 100 yards. these numbers make sense to me - the others dont

    round ball gives up its energy quick - and the smaller the more so - 12 gauge shot starts out at 1250 FPS - the small stuff falls like rain inside 200yards.

    Something to remember if shooting pests in semi urban areas a 32 cal round ball will ground itself much sooner than a 22 rf projectile

  13. #6493
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    I J.
    I was thinking that the patch still on the ball causes more drag.
    What distance do you think the patch completely comes off the ball, 5'?
    I usually find my patches at about 15'.
    I know they don't drop straight down when they come off the ball.
    But I like what you said about you setting your Crony at 20' or more to avoid the patch confusing the crony if it is almost following the ball , like maybe at 7'

  14. #6494
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    Joe;
    My apology on the misprint. I read yards and typed feet. I went back and changed the post you pointed out, to be correct. Sorry about that. Because I had converted the first post (5 yards) to feet. When LAGS asked me to check the 20 and 25 foot speeds, I looked at the chart and read 20 and 25 yards and posted those numbers. Great eye! The chart is set from zero to 50 yards in one yard increments. From 50-100 yards, it is 2 yards per increment. And from 100 up to 395 yards, it is 5 yard increments.
    I don't use the cord to my chronograph, and my phone. I just read each shot on the screen. So, if I knew an accurate ball MV, I could set it 50 feet (or yards) away from me, but I have to walk to see it and at this point am guessing at MV, or taking this calculator's word for a good approximation. I think on an occasion, I have had either a patch or smoke play games with it. It will be reading great and then all of a sudden read '23' or something. Probably a patch floating in front of the eyes.
    I hear ya on the shot and on the ball vs. .22. .22 LR used to say on the box, "Danger, Range One Mile." It may still.

    LAGS;
    I have seen a slow motion video at some point, of a ball leaving the barrel. That one showed the patch blowing loose within a few inches of the muzzle. I don't know if that is abnormal, or normal; but that's what that one showed. I have found them out 15 feet plus more than one time.
    That is the reason I am trying to find an accurate MV, per a certain distance. I will start setting my chronograph far enough away, that no patch or smoke will affect it.
    That ballistics chart is a download, and then you feed your ball size, speed, altitude and temperature into it. It is basically just a math calculation. Which should theoretically be accurate. It is only designed for pure lead and only for round balls. However we all know theory and reality are sometimes different.
    Last edited by DoubleBuck; 12-09-2022 at 04:08 AM. Reason: Changed misprint

  15. #6495
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    One thing to keep in mind is that it will lose more velocity per yard closer to the muzzle than it will farther out from the muzzle because as an object increases in velocity, air friction does as well. Ie the balls deceleration is not on a linear scale

  16. #6496
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    HighUintas;
    I did some comparisons on the balls I shoot and used a Muzzle Velocity of 1600 fps on a .490 and a .570 and the rate of decent is as follows.
    Muzzle Velocity 1600 fps.
    .490" 1500 fps @ 9 yds.-------.570" 1500 fps @ 10.5 yds.
    1400 fps @ 18.5 yds.----------1400 fps @ 21 yds.
    1300 fps @ 29.5 yds.----------1300 fps @ 34 yds.
    1200 fps @ 42 yds.------------1200 fps @ 49 yds.
    1100 fps @ 59 yds.------------1100 fps @ 69 yds.
    1000 fps @ 86 yds.------------1000 fps @ 102 yds.
    Again, the calculator only claims accuracy with pure lead balls with known muzzle velocities.
    Last edited by DoubleBuck; 12-09-2022 at 03:31 AM.

  17. #6497
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGS View Post
    I J.
    I was thinking that the patch still on the ball causes more drag.
    What distance do you think the patch completely comes off the ball, 5'?
    I usually find my patches at about 15'.
    I know they don't drop straight down when they come off the ball.
    But I like what you said about you setting your Crony at 20' or more to avoid the patch confusing the crony if it is almost following the ball , like maybe at 7'
    I dunno -----I imagine the ball comes away from the patch pretty soon after exit - 15 feet is about right for finding patches - overall velocity of the combo does make a little difference ie I push a bit harder velocity and on the range my patches proly a yard or even two further out than other guys shooting from the same mark. give or take some they all dont land the same distance out from any gun.

  18. #6498
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleBuck View Post
    HighUintas;
    I did some comparisons on the balls I shoot and used a Muzzle Velocity of 1600 fps on a .490 and a .570 and the rate of decent is as follows.
    Muzzle Velocity 1600 fps.
    .490" 1500 fps @ 9 yds.-------.570" 1500 fps @ 10.5 yds.
    1400 fps @ 18.5 yds.----------1400 fps @ 21 yds.
    1300 fps @ 29.5 yds.----------1300 fps @ 34 yds.
    1200 fps @ 42 yds.------------1200 fps @ 49 yds.
    1100 fps @ 59 yds.------------1100 fps @ 69 yds.
    1000 fps @ 86 yds.------------1000 fps @ 102 yds.
    Again, the calculator only claims accuracy with pure lead balls with known muzzle velocities.
    keep in mind this kind of self compensates --- can get a 45 ball to 2000fps - try it with a 58 ya proly break somethin - (shooters shoulder maybe?) ball size goes up, peak (and average) velocity tends to come down a little.

  19. #6499
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    I have one of those "fancy lab radars". About a month ago I tried to clock a patched round ball for the first time. I couldn't get a reading. Don't know if it was the double projectile, ball and patch, that was confusing it or what. Will try it again sometime when I have more time. If somebody else has used one effectively with a PRB, or even with black powder, I'd like to hear about it.
    AKA "Old Vic"
    "I am a great believer in powder-burning".
    --Theodore Roosevelt, Hunting Trips of a Ranchman

  20. #6500
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    Ash and Creosote

    indian joe

    Thanks for asking about ash, my apologies for taking so long to respond, along with such long answers. I hope you can muddle through what I have.

    There are two problems caused by ash.

    The first is that it interferes with the charcoal burning.
    The second is that it contributes to hard barrel deposits.

    Question 1) how much (if any) difference does the way we do our burn (cooler burn, hotter burn, over done, brown instead of black etc) make to ash content % - given the same source of wood?

    The short answer is very dark brown charcoal (but how dark brown depends on the kind of wood, too), the kind that has been proven to give the most energy content to black powder. That grade of charcoal delivers the highest gas volume per unit of weight, while still burning hot. High gas volume and burning hot gets particulates out of a gun barrel most efficiently, since particulates are what make barrel deposits. Barrel length plays a part in that, too, when a projectile leaves a short barrel, the temperature and pressure are still very high, so, the particulates are at a very high velocity and literally don't "stick" around.

    I don't know exactly what the chemistry is of ash deposits in gun barrels. I could figure that out quite easily IF there were only two chemical species present. But there are potassium nitrate, charcoal with creosote that contains dozens of chemical species, and sulfur; all of which can react with the calcium salts, magnesium salts, sodium salts, chloride, and silicon dioxide that may, or may not, be in ash (depending on the wood used for charcoal). The reactions depend on temperature and pressure. Because there could be calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, silicon dioxide, carbonate, and chloride present all at the same time when the temperature is around 3,000º F, a glass will form. There won't be much glass formed for each shot fired, and most of the glass will just be part of the gunsmoke in the form of colloid-size droplets, but some will condense inside the barrel. I doubt very much if this enamel-like glass material actually bonds to anything like enamel glazing does, but as you already know, it can be quite hard. It is just something else that mixes in with the other components of powder residue. However, unlike some of the other components, it is not water soluble.

    Disregarding ash, I do know that barrel deposit material that forms when black powder burns consists mainly of potassium sulfide, potassium carbonate, some unburned charcoal, and some potassium sulfate.

    Using the same lot of wood to make charcoal, ash will likely cause fewer problems with a very dark brown charcoal because of more gas volume to "blow" particulates out of the barrel. I would suspect that the higher the temperature, along with having a high pressure to go with it, would decrease problems from ash deposits by virtue of just plain getting combustion products out of the barrel as fast as possible. Along that line, I'm taking an educated guess that short barrels may have less of a problem with any kind of deposit than long barrels. Long barrels allow the pressure to drop, when pressure drops, gas cools, and when gas cools, molten potassium sulfide micro-droplets form into solid potassium sulfide residue. Potassium sulfide also has an unusually low boiling point of 1674º F AT ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE, which as a temperature reference point is below the melting point of copper that is not all that high. Use charcoal with as high of a creosote content as is practical. Keep in mind for charcoal that the higher its carbon content the hotter the black powder burns, but the higher the creosote content the more gas volume. So, the cross-over point has to be determined between dead-burned charcoal and having too much creosote. This is why wood roasting temperature, along with roasting time, are so critical.

    Something to think about is there is no "rule" that says the charcoal used for making one batch of black powder must be made from all one kind of wood. Along with that is there is no "rule" that says that all of the charcoal used for making that one batch black powder must be roasted at the same temperature and for the same amount of time. Think about mixing and matching different kinds of woods and the different kinds of charcoals made from them, so you get a mix of hot-burning charcoal with some that has a bit higher creosote content. It may not be possible to make the ultimate black powder by using just one species of wood, and roasting whatever kinds of woods to obtain the best kinds of creosotes. Creosote is NOT just one chemical compound, it has dozens of components that vary according to the wood and how hot and long it was roasted. NO ONE I KNOW OF HAS WORKED ON MAKING THE BEST KIND OF CREOSOTE - - - AND I HAVEN'T, EITHER. Creosote, depending on the kind of wood, ranges all the way from turpentine (like for cleaning paint brushes) to hard gummy black tar. Its characteristics depend on the final roasting temperature of the wood, and how long the wood was roasted at what temperature. It isn't simple, but in general, the lower the roasting temperature the greater the charcoal's gas-generating ability, while the higher the roasting temperature the higher the charcoal's burning temperature. The conundrum is that the higher the flame temperature when black powder burns the higher the gas volume is because gas expands with heat. But when a lot of gas is generated from creosote alone, the gas generation cools the black powder while it is burning. There is a cross-over point or Goldilocks Zone where the amount and kind of creosote in the charcoal will be "just right", like Goldilocks said. Many of you have already noticed that some batches of your black powder are outstanding, but you don't know why. This is one of the reasons.

    Question 2) would you agree? that the chemistry of the ash make as much difference (maybe more) to barrel fouling characteristics as the actual ash percentage or no?

    What is in ash varies according to plant species, but beyond that I haven't been able to find a lot of information regarding any specific plant species, except for grasses that have a high silicon dioxide content. Most ash has calcium carbonate, along with some potassium carbonate and sodium salts. There can be lesser amounts of magnesium carbonate, and sometimes silicon dioxide. There are trace amounts of other things, such as chloride, iron, phosphorus, manganese, zinc, copper, chromium, molybdenum, even cobalt, but don't worry about those because they are in such minute amounts. As far as the chemistry, calcium and magnesium tend to form insoluble deposits that are the most difficult to remove with water, but can be removed with acidic solutions. Silicon dioxide is not readily soluble in anything, except hot concentrated lye solution. Potassium salts are all water soluble - virtually all potassium comes from the potassium nitrate in the black powder, not ash. Disregarding any ash, barrel residue that forms from the potassium nitrate reacting in the black powder is mostly potassium sulfide, which reacts with water, and its products are water soluble. The potassium nitrate from the black powder also forms some potassium carbonate, which is highly water soluble. When potassium sulfide dissolves in water, some amount of hydrogen sulfide gas is produced, which is extremely poisonous, and is what makes black powder gun barrels smell so bad after firing. After firing, there is enough moisture in the air to form the hydrogen sulfide gas that can be smelled in the parts per billion range in air - that's part per BILLION. Since we are all still alive, don't worry about hydrogen sulfide gas, even the Civil War canoneers who burned pounds of powder per shot survived. However, don't use vinegar in a badly fouled barrel without good ventilation, since acidic solutions will produce hydrogen sulfide gas in toxic amounts when a lot of potassium sulfide fouling is present.

    There is a lot more to ash chemistry that depends on black powder combustion chemistry, which is not completely understood. So, over-all, who knows what goes on.

    The other thing about ash, when it is in the form of mineral particles inside the structure of charcoal, is that its physical presence interferes with the charcoal burning.

    When the wood or plant material was growing, the ash minerals were part of specific kinds of cell walls that function as strengthening, defensive, protective, reproductive structures, microtubules, leaf surfaces, etc. Some parts of a plant are very high in ash minerals, such as leaves, bark, roots, and seeds, while the rest of the plant is much lower.

    In some, but not all, fast growing plants, specific minerals are used as part of the plant structure in place of cellulose and lignin, since the plant can get minerals for free from the soil, instead of the plant having to synthesize more cellulose and lignin in order to grow quickly. When the wood is heated and decomposes into charcoal, the ash minerals act like an unwanted fire retardant for the charcoal. The mechanism of how it does this is not known, just that the higher the ash content, the more it interferes with black powder having a fast, high-temperature burn.

    The degree that ash interferes with charcoal burning is all out of proportion to how little ash there is.

    The next part I'm just taking an educated guess.

    As far as a mechanism for ash interfering with charcoal burning, it could be that the ash minerals somehow form a barrier on the charcoal particle surfaces down at the molecular level, where a tiny amount of the ash minerals form a thin coating. An analogy might be like a fire retardant paint on a piece of wood, where a tablespoonful of paint can protect a very large piece of wood. The amount of fire retardant paint might constitute just 5% of what's there, but that 5% does a lot to slow down the other 95% when it's burning.

    So, assay your charcoal for ash content and keep it below 4%, below 2.5% is ideal.

    If you can, assay your charcoal for creosote content, too. I haven't worked out the easy-to-make-at-home equipment for that, yet, because unlike doing an ash assay, the charcoal sample absolutely has to be out of contact with air while being red hot for about 30 minutes. However, Brimstone has mentioned doing creosote assays, perhaps he's figured out something already.

    Well, these are far from the best answers and some are at the very limits of my experience. But, hey! You guys have been doing great!
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