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Thread: My homemade black powder

  1. #4681
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by almar View Post
    I could never ever live in a city again. I would rather live in a cave than a city or even burbs. I understand that sometimes you have no choice but personally i just could not. If you would pay me millions i still would refuse and i mean it.
    I lived a good part of my life, with your thoughts precisely. I really need to get back to that...

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  2. #4682
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vettepilot View Post
    Hmmm...

    "....injured by damp..."
    "This arises from a partial solution of the saltpeter haven taken place, causing a consequent disturbance of incorporation."

    A quote from your quote of Waltham Abbey, where they speak of powder that has been "injured by damp". They insinuate that powder that has been damp has been ruined, basically.

    Two concerns with this. One, we dampen our powder to granulate; when prepared that way. Are we damaging it?

    Two, in the book "Never for the want of powder", it mentioned that the Rebel powder works often received damaged (damp) powder to re-process.

    ???

    Now, if a powder got truly soaked, I might understand this, as the KNO3 could dissolve and leach, or be "washed" out. But that's not what they are saying. They are saying; "injured by damp", and "flash very badly, no matter how carefully it's incorporation may have been performed."

    Lastly, I like their term "puff off". That's what I was trying to describe that I look for when I do sample burn tests. ;~)

    Comments regarding damaged or "injured" powder, resulting from having been damp?

    Vettepilot
    I don’t have the answers but I can guess that part of the KN03 does dissolve when the powder is damp. It dissolves in water like table salt so maybe it does disincorporate to some degree. The saltpeter particles after ball milling are extremely small, one drop can dissolve alot of them... I know that ill check for the little specks now and if there are any in the residue, its going back in.
    Last edited by almar; 10-21-2021 at 04:18 PM.
    “It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.”
    ― Winston S. Churchill

  3. #4683
    Boolit Bub
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    The common refrain "Keep your powder dry!" is an adage meant to assure that our powder is not "Injured by the damp."

    A finished powder can be adversely altered by excessive moisture and not recover even after being dried.

    The most common explanation is that too much of the Potassium Nitrate had been lost rendering the powder useless.

    In our modern language some of the Olde English idioms are difficult to definitively parse.

    When I made my powder I never pre-mixed the powdered ingredients as they did at Waltham Abbey Powder Works.

    I just tossed the separate ingredients into my tumbler and let it tumble away thinking that it would all get mixed thoroughly as it was incorporating.

    Looking back, I believe now that is why the literature I had gotten at the time recommended milling for 72 hours.

    Simply to assure that adequate blending and incorporation occurred in that amount of time.

    Back in the '90s some of us just didn't know any better I reckon.

    All of my new batches will be thoroughly mixed before beginning the milling process.

    Maybe all it needs is tumbling without media for a time to pre-mix the substances before the incorporation with media takes place.

    Or maybe just shaking the powdered ingredients really well in a jar to mix it all up before tossing it into the tumbler.

    Will it make any difference? Probably not, but I'll find out one way or another.

    I just happened to remember that I'd seen these videos by Bangkok Pyro which show how he does it:

    Powdering the Potassium Nitrate

    Making BP for lift and burst

    Granulating BP
    Last edited by SeaMonkey; 10-21-2021 at 06:58 PM.

  4. #4684
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    Seamonkey, I think the same way. When I weigh the ingredients into the mill barrel I seal it, then turn it in my hands on the crosswise axis to turn the whole charge over itself a few times - sideways to the way the machine does it. That doesn't incorporate at all but I know that the ingredients are no longer clumped separately in the corners when the milling starts.

  5. #4685
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    Hmmm... I always just toss the weighed ingredients in and go, figuring if milling doesn't thoroughly mix it, then something's wrong with the milling!

    But it surely couldn't hurt to put all the ingredients in a jar, give it a good shake, and then throw it in the mill... I'll probably just start doing that.

    Anything that makes ya "feel warm and fuzzy", and "sleep well at night", is probably worth it!

    ;~)

    Then there's the old man "brain farts". I have a batch going right now. Been milling for 12 hours. I was about to take it off the mill, when I realized I never added my "stick together" stuff. (I use rice starch now.) Oh man... so, stopped the mill, weighed the starch, added it, and it's back to milling. Darn it!!

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  6. #4686
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    I usually premix the ingredient's before milling. Gently, so as not to raise a cloud.
    swamp
    There is no problem so great, that it cannot be solved by the proper application of high explosives.

  7. #4687
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vettepilot View Post
    To Arch408, and, as regards the Goex plant shutting down. I have a worry about that. It seems like everyone here is very conscientious and careful. I don't recall of a single accident throughout this huge thread. At least none reported that I know about.

    Now if powder keeps getting harder and harder to find/buy, many more people are going to start trying making homemade powder. When every "Tom, Dick, & Harry" is doing it, there's that much more chance for accidents.

    And god forbid!! The government considers it a big part of it's "charter" to "protect us from ourselves". When accidents start happening, the government WILL get involved, and it won't be pretty!! And it will all be done in the name of "Safety", and "Stopping Terrorists" to make it nice and palatable.

    I would suggest it wise to not convince your neighbor to join our activities. Indeed, don't even tell him what you're doing!

    Vettepilot
    I tend to agree. There was a guy in FLA that blew his place up recently, when asked he said it was because he was reloading. I call BS on that, I cant figure out how that would happen reloading. But it makes you think about how many have taken up reloading the last couple of years and how many numbskulls there are out there that could mess things up for everyone. More risky with this practice, how many out there will ball mill with hex nuts or steel ball bearings in a suburb because they have no clue. best you can do is be careful, don't be too comfortable with it and don't be that guy.
    “It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.”
    ― Winston S. Churchill

  8. #4688
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote from Vettepilot:
    Then there's the old man "brain farts".
    I have a batch going right now. Been milling for 12 hours. I was about to take it off the mill, when I realized I never added my "stick together" stuff.
    (I use rice starch now.) Oh man... so, stopped the mill, weighed the starch, added it, and it's back to milling. Darn it!!
    Well, you just never know. Some of the most amazing discoveries were made by "accident."

    Maybe this will be one of them!


    On the very sad note of some having experienced "blowups" at their homes. Many of those were caused by making the explosive mixture for the "reveal bombs" that were being used

    to announce the coming birth of a son or daughter at their reveal parties. Those blowups have been very destructive and at least one young man lost his life as a consequence.
    Last edited by SeaMonkey; 10-21-2021 at 08:34 PM.

  9. #4689
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    And a major fire was started, among many other accidents with "gender reveal" stunts.

    Let me tell you... when you work with the general public in some fashion, and are exposed to a lot of people, you truly start wondering how the heck the world keeps going 'round!!

    And the things the idiots do on YouTube!! Totally clueless! Common sense ain't so common...

    We don't need those people making powder. There's no stopping the government infringements--> we need to keep our heads down!

    Safety police!!

    Ok, ok, I'll quit...

    ;~)

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  10. #4690
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    Ha! Another forum I lurked through reading about black powder... in that one, if you even Whisper "homemade powder", you're expelled!!

    Wow!
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  11. #4691
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    I charred up a small batch of Sassafras wood this evening in my 20 Lb. Lee casting furnace retort made up with a can inside a can that is placed down on top of about one lb. of melted lead inside the furnace. Three small flat lava rocks hold the inner can up off the bottom of the outer can just a tad. Lead casting thermometer placed through a tight fitting hole in the upper can lid down into the middle of the wood. Does not do a whole lot of charcoal at once, but then I shoot small calibers and they are not as hungry as the big bores.

    Anyway, I kept the temperature well below 600 degrees, at least the center of the wood. The outer edges might have gotten a bit hotter, but I gradually got the temperature up, so not likely that the outer wood over roasted much. The temperature wanted to start climbing eventually after the smoke really turned loose, but I kept the thing regulated so that it did not surge past 600 degrees. Not quite as reddish colored as the Black Willow though. More of a dark brown chocolate color.

    Sassafras gave me the exact same ash level as the Carolina Buckthorn at 2.6% ash. Sounds promising so far.

    I did manage to shoot a few rounds of the Carolina Buckthorn powder yesterday, comparing it to my Black Willow. Same volume measure gave Black Willow 21 grains and the Carolina Buckthorn only 19 grains so the same weight of powder placed in the cylinders of my 1851 .36 cal. showed a good difference in the two powders volume. Normal charge of Black Willow gives just enough room for one of my home made greased felt wads and the ball seated flush with the cylinder throat. The Carolina Buckthorn powder of the same charge weight filled the cylinders so I had to crush the powder a bit when seating the ball.

    Black Willow gave 650 fps with good accuracy. Carolina Buckthorn gave a bit less at 615 fps., but still with decent accuracy. I imagine the reduction in velocity might have been because of the over compressed powder, so although not as dense, I am not ready just yet to give up on the Carolina Buckthorn as a useful charcoal wood. The compression into pucks seemed to be about normal, but somehow the density came out a bit less.

    I will get the Sassafras worked up soon and make another comparison shoot. I can hope for a better showing with the Sassafras. If so, that stuff grows along about every fence row in this part of the State or on any land that has not been brush hogged for a few years. And best of all, I can stay out of the ticks when I go cut some.
    73 de n0ubx, Rick
    NRA Benefactor Life Member/VFW Life Member

  12. #4692
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    Thank you for the report Hamgunner. I found a few carolina buckthorns here but they were so small i don't think i would have made much with them. Glad you did the test. Did you check the puck density by any chance? I suppose that the buckthorn pucks might have less density given that the finished powder was less dense, at least that seems logical to me. I recently discovered with my tests (accidentally) that density is a huge factor that affects powder performance. Although, less dense gave me better velocity...
    Last edited by almar; 10-22-2021 at 06:21 AM.
    “It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.”
    ― Winston S. Churchill

  13. #4693
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    I did not do any density tests. Actually I have no clue exactly how to do it. I suppose it involves measuring the amount (distance) the powder compresses?

    Anyway, I did not shoot a lesser volume amount of the Carolina Buckthorn so that it would properly fit into the cylinder of the chamber without excess compression as I forgot to bring any of it along to my shooting area other than what I had already loaded in the revolver. I suspect I would have gotten a bit higher velocity result with an uncompressed load as that seems to be the norm with my loading experiences with Black Powder. Over compressed loads seem to give less velocity. I did get a very good extreme spread with the Carolina Buckthorn and the standard deviation was about as low as anything I have ever shot. I have the Chrony model with the wired remote readout so it was right there beside me and I watched the velocity of each shot and the chronograph did register each one separately, but the readings were just a couple of fps different from each shot. Had me wondering if the chronograph was in error, but it was an overcast day and my Chrony seems to work really well, without shade screens, looking up at a gray sky. Accuracy was not extra remarkable, but certainly not what I would consider bad by any means. I plan on doing more tests. I will bring all my different powders next time.

    I bought the Chrony with the remote readout after a stray gas check took out the screen of my last unit. I actually shot the one I had before that one. Was working up a load with my Mini-14 .223 and got interrupted in my testing and it was strung out over several months. I had decided to change scopes and then by the time I resumed testing, I had forgotten that the scope needed sighting in. Scored a direct bulleseye on the Chrony with the first shot. Now I guess they are out of business, but I am happy with the one I have. It only gives errors if the lighting is too bright or too dim.
    Last edited by HamGunner; 10-22-2021 at 01:07 PM.
    73 de n0ubx, Rick
    NRA Benefactor Life Member/VFW Life Member

  14. #4694
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    The density of the pucks is the amount of weight you have for a specific volume of the puck, typically should be close to 1.7 grams per cubic centimeter. If you divide the weight in grams by the volume of the puck in cubic centimeters you get the density.

    This is the way i understand it: When you get that puck very dense and break them up into grains they contain more particles of BP than grains from a less dense puck, therefore each grain consumes itself slower.
    If you take a given weight of dense grains and put it next to the same weight of less dense grains, the dense powder takes up less volume. This is because the same amount of milled powder is spread across a larger number of grains, so more surface area.

    The greater the total amount of surface area exposed to flame the faster the entire charge will burn. And since that bullet is moving and increasing the volume of the burn chamber as it does, if the powder doesn’t burn fast enough, it will not reach optimal pressure.

    However what I’m pointing out is that even though your willow was denser, it still shot faster.

    As I read it, the dense powder is particularly favorable for blasting whereas a less dense powder is favorable for use in small arms where a quick impulse is more important than the build up of gases.

    The downside of less density or hardness is that the grains will tend to wear more easily and make dust over time if moved around a lot.
    Last edited by almar; 10-22-2021 at 01:53 PM.
    “It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.”
    ― Winston S. Churchill

  15. #4695
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    Here's how I would test densities in your case Almar. I realize you're getting a bit tired of all this, but you're on the cusp of possibly making the best homemade black powder ever made! And repeatably!! And you're almost done!

    I think you are pretty close to having optimized the recipe, the charcoal etc. Dialing in density is the only thing left, right? Again, this is just how I would do it...

    Make up a batch of your very best green meal. Then do a detailed, multi-step compression routine. Start at what you would guess would give you a density of say, 1.55 g/cc, in reasonable test steps all the way up to 2 g/cc.

    So that it's repeatable, record how you got there. What jack pressure, how long exactly, how many times re-pressurized, at what time point, etc. Also record what relative humidity, and/or exactly how much water you add.

    Then, keeping each puck separate and labeled, --> bust, grind, and grade each sample. Lastly, re-weigh the bulk density, record it for reference, and go have fun shooting it all and recording the results.

    You've done outstanding work and you're really close to wrapping it all up. You've got this!!

    Vettepilot
    Last edited by Vettepilot; 10-22-2021 at 03:16 PM.
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  16. #4696
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    Hi vette, the routine I use is now to obtain a density I believe is substantially better than using the pressure and time alone, in fact I strongly suggest it to anyone. The amount of pressure applied and time is dependent on the amount of moisture content. The spring effect of a drier powder is greater than a powder with a certain amount of moisture therefore the amount of time required for a given pressure will vary. There is a substantial amount of variables to control. When I compressed my best batch, it was very dry and therefore I obtained an unusually low density puck, this is what started me to question density and performance and how they relate. I initially thought that the more amount of powder you can condense into the grains the better it will be, it just isn't so. The method I use now is much better because there are no variables. You control the density.

    1) I measure the final volume desired that will give the puck thickness I want. I note where the piston has to be. Notice the red mark.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    2) I calculate the weight of powder that will give me the desired density for the target volume.

    3) I add the amount of powder to the piston and apply pressure. I still use a pressure gauge so I can add when it drops and to monitor the compression but it is not required. All you have to do is wait till the mark is reached. You should be at the target density. It works for me.

    The game I need to play here is like you said, figure out the best density for my given powder that will give me durable grains, consistency and acceptable power and fouling.

    I just recently received a gift to myself in the mail and its a Howell cartridge conversion for my 1858 Remington in 45 colt. I think its going to open up a new dimension for testing. I may have to order a mold from accurate molds for a hollow base and machine a punch for it in order to expand a .452 to the .454 bore of the uberties though. I'm not tired at all.
    Last edited by almar; 10-22-2021 at 06:15 PM.
    “It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.”
    ― Winston S. Churchill

  17. #4697
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    Oh man!!! I've been wanting to buy myself one of those for a long time but just can't make myself "get off the money". I'm jealous...

    :~(

    I think we're secretly brothers you and I; it often shocks me how much we think alike.

    Ok, well you're ahead of me on the compression, and as always, great thinking.

    You'll get there.

    Vettepilot
    PS. I mentioned you maybe getting worn out because you mentioned all the number crunching "taking the fun out of it". No harm intended...
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  18. #4698
    Boolit Master almar's Avatar
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    Haha true. Similar minded people often find themselves in the same places.

    Didnt think about getting brass...hard to find. Ill go by the indoor range tomorrow to see if i can get some.
    “It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.”
    ― Winston S. Churchill

  19. #4699
    Boolit Master
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    Yeah, every time I'm just about to "pull the trigger" on getting one of those conversions, I stop and think, "No, then I'll need brass, bullets, dies, molds, etc." I've got all that for every single other caliber I own. It's a lot of stock, and no small expense!

    So, the Alder works, but not as good as Black Willow, nor the Red Cedar chips. It might be as energetic; hard to tell just from a burn test, but it's clearly a bit dirtier. One of the commercial powder companies uses Alder I believe. Is it Goex? I wonder why they use it?

    Anyway, I've now got some for when I manage to go out and chrono test, in both 2f and 3f.

    Vettepilot

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  20. #4700
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    Quote Originally Posted by almar View Post
    The density of the pucks is the amount of weight you have for a specific volume of the puck, typically should be close to 1.7 grams per cubic centimeter. If you divide the weight in grams by the volume of the puck in cubic centimeters you get the density.

    This is the way i understand it: When you get that puck very dense and break them up into grains they contain more particles of BP than grains from a less dense puck, therefore each grain consumes itself slower.
    If you take a given weight of dense grains and put it next to the same weight of less dense grains, the dense powder takes up less volume. This is because the same amount of milled powder is spread across a larger number of grains, so more surface area.

    The greater the total amount of surface area exposed to flame the faster the entire charge will burn. And since that bullet is moving and increasing the volume of the burn chamber as it does, if the powder doesn’t burn fast enough, it will not reach optimal pressure.

    However what I’m pointing out is that even though your willow was denser, it still shot faster.

    As I read it, the dense powder is particularly favorable for blasting whereas a less dense powder is favorable for use in small arms where a quick impulse is more important than the build up of gases.

    The downside of less density or hardness is that the grains will tend to wear more easily and make dust over time if moved around a lot.
    FWIW (opinion ) .... Blasting powder comes in large grains - the stuff I used in bygone days was about 3/8" gravel size - that was for a post hole gun that had a one inch bore and powder chamber about 8 inches long. The larger grain size slows burn rate much more so than any perceived change in density - doesnt mean the coarse stuff has any less potential power, it just needs to be more forcefully enclosed to get to its maximum. Same works to a degree with small arms blackpowder I believe, long barrel, big heavy boolit Fg or FFg (slower burn rate) gets it done best - shorter barrel, lighter boolit, or patched ball = FFFg for sure.

    Regards clean burn or otherwise ? for me comes down to how many shots can I fire before accuracy is affected - much and all as it is FUN - all the open air tests under the sun wont get me that answer - might point the way some and it is fun but the gun barrel is the test that counts. This I also believe changes with load - a "dirty" powder will burn cleaner if its a strong charge under a heavy boolit than that same powder in a light load or with a round ball over it

    just opinion developed from shooting - I got me no proof for any of this ..........................................

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check