My homemade black powder

[Vettepilot]

@Indian Joe: Any speculation on what caused HighUintas' powder to burn dirty?? What seems to be governing factors regarding cleanliness of burn, given that one is using good wood??

@HighUintas: What type of wood did you use, and how did you char it? (Sorry, I'm sure you said before but I don't recall.)

Thanks,
Vettepilot

[HighUintas]

@Indian Joe: Any speculation on what caused HighUintas' powder to burn dirty?? What seems to be governing factors regarding cleanliness of burn, given that one is using good wood??

@HighUintas: What type of wood did you use, and how did you char it? (Sorry, I'm sure you said before but I don't recall.)

Thanks,
Vettepilot

With my large number of frequent posts, I'm not surprised that you missed it or lost it!

I'm using wood from the Paulownia tree in my backyard. I trimmed it a bit ago and used branches ranging from 1 in to 2 in in diameter. I cleaned off all the bark, dried them out completely in my toaster oven set to 150 Fahrenheit on convection, and split them into pieces that were roughly half inch by half inch.

I did not clean out the flaky pith material from the center of the branch, nor did I cut out any bark seams from offshooting branches. I don't recall seeing any bark seems running through the pieces I put in there, but it's possible there were a couple. I think the wood was pretty darn clean, other than the centerpieth material.

I packed it into my one gallon paint can, fairly snug but still loose enough to rattle when shaking the can around. I put it on my propane burner, which has a 10-in ring filled with a whole lot of tiny nozzles all the way to the center, so it does produce very even heat throughout that 10-in circle. I had the paint can on its side with a 3/8 inch hole for venting, and a grill thermometer installed as well. I also had a stainless steel stock pot sat over the top of the paint can on the burner to create an oven to help heat it more evenly. I still turned the paint can 5 to 10 minutes to help heat the can evenly.

From the point of starting to heat the can, to the point that I turn the flame off and taped the hole, was 45 minutes. There was a very lazy yellow flame coming from the hole that did not want to stay lit when I decided to shut the burner off. The thermometer finally jumped up between 600 and 650 degrees Fahrenheit in the last several minutes of heating it. It read lower most of the time.

I also have some powder made from rosebud brand cedar horse bedding chips, and a cedar picket from Lowe's. I cooked the chips in my one gallon can as a test prior to doing the polonia. That test was a little less controlled, but the temperature hit 600° right as I turned the flame off.

The cedar picket was charred in a court size paint can, on a different propane burner that is less powerful and I had the flame turned about as low as it would go. The cedar picket took about an hour and a half to finish. When I pulled that charcoal out of the can, one end of it was all black of course, and the other end of the wood was a very dark brown. The black and of the charcoal sticks was on the lid side where I had the ventil facing down and burning, so it got more heat than the other end of the can. I didn't have a thermometer in that small can, but I am guessing the temperature was much lower than the one gallon cans, since it was dark brown on the other end.

With burn tests on paper, all three powders left a yellow halo around the burn area and it seemed that the cedar chips left slightly more black carbon fouling on the paper than the polonia, and the cedar picket left even more black carbon fouling on the paper then the chips. But, the cedar picket powder was only meal and had not been pressed and dried yet.

Because they were three different wood sources, I can't draw this conclusion with certainty, but it seems possible that the lower charring temperature of those woods could be causing them to burn dirtier

[DoubleBuck]

I have a short puck that goes in the bottom of my sleve. I put the puck in the bottom of the sleeve, fill it with powder, put the main piston in top of that, then press it. Powder can't get out that way.

Paramax, that's a pretty rang dang good idee, there!

[Vettepilot]

I was really bored, sitting waiting for an important phone call, so I made a quick drawing of the base for my pressing die that I'll machine up when I get a chance. I want mine to have a step, as shown, and I'm going to add two thumbscrews to my die sleeve to clamp onto it. This will not only prevent things from shifting/moving, but also be handy for keeping all pieces together while loading and handling it.

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

With my large number of frequent posts, I'm not surprised that you missed it or lost it!

I'm using wood from the Paulownia tree in my backyard. I trimmed it a bit ago and used branches ranging from 1 in to 2 in in diameter. I cleaned off all the bark, dried them out completely in my toaster oven set to 150 Fahrenheit on convection, and split them into pieces that were roughly half inch by half inch.

I did not clean out the flaky pith material from the center of the branch, nor did I cut out any bark seams from offshooting branches. I don't recall seeing any bark seems running through the pieces I put in there, but it's possible there were a couple. I think the wood was pretty darn clean, other than the centerpieth material.

I packed it into my one gallon paint can, fairly snug but still loose enough to rattle when shaking the can around. I put it on my propane burner, which has a 10-in ring filled with a whole lot of tiny nozzles all the way to the center, so it does produce very even heat throughout that 10-in circle. I had the paint can on its side with a 3/8 inch hole for venting, and a grill thermometer installed as well. I also had a stainless steel stock pot sat over the top of the paint can on the burner to create an oven to help heat it more evenly. I still turned the paint can 5 to 10 minutes to help heat the can evenly.

From the point of starting to heat the can, to the point that I turn the flame off and taped the hole, was 45 minutes. There was a very lazy yellow flame coming from the hole that did not want to stay lit when I decided to shut the burner off. The thermometer finally jumped up between 600 and 650 degrees Fahrenheit in the last several minutes of heating it. It read lower most of the time.

I also have some powder made from rosebud brand cedar horse bedding chips, and a cedar picket from Lowe's. I cooked the chips in my one gallon can as a test prior to doing the polonia. That test was a little less controlled, but the temperature hit 600° right as I turned the flame off.

The cedar picket was charred in a court size paint can, on a different propane burner that is less powerful and I had the flame turned about as low as it would go. The cedar picket took about an hour and a half to finish. When I pulled that charcoal out of the can, one end of it was all black of course, and the other end of the wood was a very dark brown. The black and of the charcoal sticks was on the lid side where I had the ventil facing down and burning, so it got more heat than the other end of the can. I didn't have a thermometer in that small can, but I am guessing the temperature was much lower than the one gallon cans, since it was dark brown on the other end.

With burn tests on paper, all three powders left a yellow halo around the burn area and it seemed that the cedar chips left slightly more black carbon fouling on the paper than the polonia, and the cedar picket left even more black carbon fouling on the paper then the chips. But, the cedar picket powder was only meal and had not been pressed and dried yet.

Because they were three different wood sources, I can't draw this conclusion with certainty, but it seems possible that the lower charring temperature of those woods could be causing them to burn dirtier

Yeah, it seemed like you had mentioned low temp charring, so that's what I was wondering as well. I believe most everyone here has just been "chucking them in a hot fire and letting them roast" so to speak. I definitely had read that 600 to 700 hundred degrees was a good temp as I recall, but I would think that meant that temp should be reached and held.

The only other variable I can think of, might be your artificial "seasoning" of the wood before cooking it. I don't know if that could factor in or not, but I rather doubt it...

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

Seems I read that right around the time of the change-over from Holy Black to smokeless, there were experiments done with a more powerful form of BP called "Brown powder". It was apparently made using under cooked wood, hence the name. Maybe research that a little?

Vettepilot

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Vettepilot;5200453]@Indian Joe: Any speculation on what caused HighUintas' powder to burn dirty?? What seems to be governing factors regarding cleanliness of burn, given that one is using good wood??

Got no idea really - I got lucky with clean burn first time around - (hybrid willow) - stuck with it since then - I split it all up into sticks half to three quarter inch - only put sound wood in the can - toss any punky stuff (get a bit of that in the willow after its dead a while) - using deadfall timber 2 to 5 years down - stuff from 2 inch to 5 inch mostly - got plenty of choice! - burn is proly underdone - always have some sticks not charred enough to grind - If it will snap crisply I use it - flint gun leaves a brownish residue around the pan - notice that compared to the grey that other powder leaves - have had a couple comments that I dont get as much smoke or its a bit different colour - hard to tell when you behind the gun. Was tempted to try pawlonia (I know where an abandoned plantation is - in another state!)but them willow trees are 100yards from my keyboard - I figure the energy is better spent refining the process a bit.
......

[HighUintas]

Seems I read that right around the time of the change-over from Holy Black to smokeless, there were experiments done with a more powerful form of BP called "Brown powder". It was apparently made using under cooked wood, hence the name. Maybe research that a little?

Vettepilot

Yup. Here's a few links to charcoal information I've found. There's a bit of "brown" charcoal info in there.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YV_...w?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Wnq...w?usp=drivesdk

http://www.fao.org/3/X5328E/x5328e00.htm#Contents

[HighUintas]

I pressed some more pucks last night to prep some powder for my charcoal temperature experiment. My aluminum pie plate was destroyed last time I made pucks, I cut an aluminum can to create a pressing sheet to go over the steel press plate. I thought it might create a little better seal at the bottom of the dye sleeve. It does seem to have worked a bit better, but it destroys the aluminum sheet every round of pucks I press. I noticed that you need to have the piston going in to the sleeve as straight as possible if there is any can't to it at all, it tends to allow the pucks to flow out the bottom of the sleeve on the side where the Piston is a little higher. Itwill start to flow out a bit over the first 10 minute press, and then releasing the pressure and repressing just allows that process to get worse.

Since I don't have metal machining capabilities, I was thinking that maybe I could make a fixture to hold the sleep down tight to the pressing plate surface. I'll start with just using a hole saw on a piece of wood and then slipping that piece of wood over the top of the sleeve and use a c-clamp on each side of it holding the wood and the sleeve firmly onto the pressing plate. I'm not sure if the wood would be able to stand up to the forces on it after I start pressing, but it's a start.

As for my experiment, I used a cedar picket from the hardware store and made some charcoal from it with the flame as low as possible, and this is what gave me the charcoal with some of it being a dark brown. That charcoal was a yield of 40% by weight. I also took some of that same picket and made another round of charcoal at a really high temperature, to wear the can was glowing a dull red. This charcoal was done cooking much faster, and gave a 30% yield by weight. I read in one of the links above that a yield of around 25% by weight usually contains little to no volatiles. So, this should give a decent view on how the two extremes would affect velocity and dirtiness when shooting.

[DoubleBuck]

I'd like to make a huge shoutout, to Paramax, and VettePilot, and HighUintas, as well as anyone else, bringing up the pressing of pucks, without water!
I pressed a half pound of pucks, yesterday afternoon and last night, using no water. I did four ounces per press, with a divider in the middle, which I made out of a two gallon Rotella oil jug. They worked very well. I pressed them with a 20 ton press pretty well maxed out. I checked them every 15 minutes, and would add a pump, or more, as needed. I left them for one hour and 30 minutes. They were so tight, I had to press the pucks out of the die. You talking about hard pucks!!!! They were nearly mirror shiny and the hardest pucks I've ever pressed!
I just got done, grinding and screening the smallest one, and it took me longer than any one I've ever finished. The grains are so hard, I got down to a half teaspoon and had to grind them four times, to finish. I'm highly impressed!
HighUintas sent me some Paulownia wood, to see if it would work for me. I can't wait to see what it does. We'll see soon!

[Vettepilot]

I'd like to make a huge shoutout, to Paramax, and VettePilot, and HighUintas, as well as anyone else, bringing up the pressing of pucks, without water!
I pressed a half pound of pucks, yesterday afternoon and last night, using no water. I did four ounces per press, with a divider in the middle, which I made out of a two gallon Rotella oil jug. They worked very well. I pressed them with a 20 ton press pretty well maxed out. I checked them every 15 minutes, and would add a pump, or more, as needed. I left them for one hour and 30 minutes. They were so tight, I had to press the pucks out of the die. You talking about hard pucks!!!! They were nearly mirror shiny and the hardest pucks I've ever pressed!
I just got done, grinding and screening the smallest one, and it took me longer than any one I've ever finished. The grains are so hard, I got down to a half teaspoon and had to grind them four times, to finish. I'm highly impressed!
HighUintas sent me some Paulownia wood, to see if it would work for me. I can't wait to see what it does. We'll see soon!

Glad it worked well for you. Be aware that the humidity in the air is a factor as well, so you might want to make note of what it was when you made this batch. (Weather history for your area for when you did the pressing?)

How did your density come out?

Vettepilot

[Paramax55]

Vettepilot - My die set is very similar to your picture. Of course I don't have the set screws, but I also don't have the step on the bottom puck, either. For me, it works better without the step. When it's done pressing, I'll put the whole thing on a bearing separator, stick it back in the press, and press everything out of the bottom of the sleeve. The "lip" between the bottom puck and the sleeve gives me something to rest the bearing separator on. I'm not saying it's the best way - just the way I made up as I went along. I'm just putting it out there for information.

[DoubleBuck]

Glad it worked well for you. Be aware that the humidity in the air is a factor as well, so you might want to make note of what it was when you made this batch. (Weather history for your area for when you did the pressing?)

How did your density come out?

Vettepilot

I ran out of my Graf and Son's Swiss powder, about three months ago, and don't have a way to compare the density, by a volume/weight. And every puck I made was not uniform. Two have a concave on one side and flat, on the other, with varying edge heights. Pretty hard to tell, without dressing up the edge, until it is flat on both sides. My brother has some Graf powder I got for him, and will pick up some, for this purpose, when I go see him, hopefully sometime soon. It is from the same lot, that I had, when I used it as a benchmark for my early tests. Then, I can at least use a comparative. I may get industrious and see if I could straighten up one puck and try to get an accurate measurement. After thinking about it, I had one one ounce puck, that was very uniform, because it was on bottom and I turned the piston, on top of it, to level it out. Of course, that is the one I broke up, instead of measuring. Until then, I would be merely speculating, on density.
I do monitor the temp and humidity. When I started it was 78° and 50%. When I finished, it was about 71° and 63%. I also put all the pucks in the dehydrator, at 160° for three hours, and the nearly 8 ounces of powder lost 1.3 grams of weight. I left them in for one more hour and they quit dropping weight, so I assume they were dryer than the atmosphere. They are most definitely the hardest pucks I've ever broke up.
I have video and pictures of the three burn rate tests, that I make on most of my powder, and clean tests I make. I guess this site won't let me post them, without a link. So, if you take my word for it, I can tell you it was slow green meal and fresh dried and screened was much faster, but the finished powder was the third fastest I've ever made and cleaned up a great deal. I can't wait to shoot a group and check them out, which may happen tomorrow.
On my linear tester, it burned in 1.7 seconds. The fastest powder I have made burned in 36 frames, at 30 Frames per second. My second fastest burned in 1.3 seconds and my third in 1.4. So, the Paulownia is definitely quick. It has some big shoes to out perform my Sassafras, and the Balsa, but it is right up there!

[Vettepilot]

We'll be waiting on those shooting tests! Nice work.

Wow. Balsa? That stuff is expensive, and it must take a ton of it to get a usable amount of charcoal!! I have heard it's fast though...

My brother in law has a bunch of old sun shades lying around here, made of very small diameter bamboo. (Think coffee stir stick diameter.) I keep eyeballing those things, wanting to turn them into charcoal. They just might "disappear" one of these days! ;~)

Vettepilot

[HighUintas]

We'll be waiting on those shooting tests! Nice work.

Wow. Balsa? That stuff is expensive, and it must take a ton of it to get a usable amount of charcoal!! I have heard it's fast though...

My brother in law has a bunch of old sun shades lying around here, made of very small diameter bamboo. (Think coffee stir stick diameter.) I keep eyeballing those things, wanting to turn them into charcoal. They just might "disappear" one of these days! ;~)

Vettepilot

I think I read somewhere that someone tried it and it was no good. But, their process may have been no good!

[Vettepilot]

Yeah, I've read that bamboo is mediocre, but everytime I see those rolled up sun shades lying around here gathering dust, I'm still tempted to try it.

Perhaps you're right; they didn't use it properly. Because it seems to meet that broad general description of a light, fast growing type of wood.... who knows?

;~)

Vettepilot

[DoubleBuck]

VettePilot;
I also read the bamboo was weak, but that wouldn't keep me from trying it. The block of Balsa I was given was 4" x 4" x 6". I only used about half of it, to make a batch. It is expensive, but my next step is to get with a factory, in Colorado and see what they do with their saw dust and waste, at the mill. If a guy could by 10 or so pounds of dust... I also saw that Balsa is not all what we see model airplanes, etc. made from. They say the center is no good and the density runs from very light, to pretty heavy. So, I don't know what part my block is made from. It is very light, in your hand, is about all I know. It makes some killer fast powder and will power a bullet, for sure.
I pressed one puck, from the Paulownia, and tried to make it as uniform as possible. I let it set for the hour and 1/2, with 20 tons on it, and made some measurements with Micrometers. It is still a few thousandths thicker or thinner, in places on the edge. So, I took five thickness measurements on it and averaged them, weighed it, then plugged in the formula. I got 1.6163 Grams per CC density. That may not be exact, but I'm thinking pretty close. I'm going to break one more puck up and see if I can at least shoot 10 or so, this evening. I hurt my back yesterday and have been laying around feeling sorry for me, today. haha

[henryinpanama]

"a light, fast growing type of wood"
Bamboo isn't wood, it's a grass. Maybe that makes a difference. I have a few ounces of bamboo charcoal, and plan to give it a try.

[LAGS]

Have any of you guys that make charcoal out of different woods done any testing to see how the different woods compare to each other as per Weight to Volume.
That possibly could be a way of selecting your wood for charcoal.
We compare the finished powder to others by weight to volume.
So why not compare the charcoal.
That could end up being a factor in the finished product comparison.
IE.
Does Willow charcoal weigh the same per volume as other woods
The lighter the charcoal , could be more volume .

[HighUintas]

Have any of you guys that make charcoal out of different woods done any testing to see how the different woods compare to each other as per Weight to Volume.
That possibly could be a way of selecting your wood for charcoal.
We compare the finished powder to others by weight to volume.
So why not compare the charcoal.
That could end up being a factor in the finished product comparison.
IE.
Does Willow charcoal weigh the same per volume as other woods
The lighter the charcoal , could be more volume .

There was some discussion on that wayyy back in this thread. I don't know if it provided much conclusion on that relationship though