My homemade black powder

[indian joe]

At least theoretically, water should not be needed for pressing powder, but I'll keep looking into what the commercial producers do when I get a chance. I'm off to get a worrisome heart checkup just now...

Vettepilot

A theory is just an idea thats not been proved out yet - that one dont work at my place -
I keep my stuff as dry as I possibly can sos I dont get clumping in the mill - needs some water to press it -
I cant get a decent mix with the right amount of water so I ball it up, grate it through some window screen mesh then press it - otherwise I get spotty pucks out of the press (not evenly damped) If I spray enough water to get a good mix at first then its too wet in the press (most all fellers are gonna make their first mix too wet for pressing)
Tried the alcohol water thing = waste of time I reckon.

[Eddie2002]

Damn everybody, all this talk about pressing powder is making me think about giving it a try if I ever get time. Just had to dig up and repair some plumbing going to my in ground Jacuzzi which wasn't a lot of fun and still need to pull some honey off of my bee hives. Just motorized my old honey extractor with a clothes washer motor and am dying to give it a try. I've scrounged up some 2 1/2 inch round pieces of aluminum for a BP die and spun out a ram on my metal lathe which is a beginning but still haven't decided on what size press press is needed. Still need to find a grinder and screens for the project.

[HighUintas]

When pressing your powder into pucks be aware that the particles of powder do not
compress and compact themselves instantly. It takes several minutes for the particles
and the small amount of moisture in the pressing to re-arrange themselves into their
more compact form with evenly distributed moisture.

How much pressure is actually needed to press the pucks? Higher pressures will compress
the mix more rapidly but lower pressures will also yield a very dense product with a little
more time.

Some have already discovered that the pressing operation must be done incrementally by
several pressings at ten to twenty minute intervals. With each pressing allow the
particles sufficient time to become more dense. With pressures as low as 500 lbs. the
pressings will become equally dense given sufficient time for the particles to occupy
their most dense positions.

In the old days the pressing operation lasted nearly an hour for each batch with the
lower pressures available then. That much time was necessary for a large batch of
several layers in the machine. With today's higher pressures and smaller batch sizes
the pressing can be done much faster. But never instantly. Time is necessary.

Keep up the excellent work men! Your experiences and tips are very, very helpful.

I was wondering about that idea of multiple pressings.. one of the original guys on this thread, Bob was his name I think, didn't use a press at all. He had a dye made up out of PVC and he used his vise. You would continuously tighten it over some period of time and he was able to get powder that was 80 something percent as dense as commercial.

I can't measure my actual density of pox, because I can't seem to make a uniformly thick puck. But, I'll test this out for myself next time I press some. Is that what you're doing sea monkey?

On a side note? I ground some pucks last night that I had drawing for 48 hours in a dehydrator, and I increased my 30 screen, or 2f, yield to 55%, but then I remembered that I had read that Swiss powder grain ratio is something like 75% on a 20 screen and 25% on a 30 screen for their two f powder. So, I'll just mix together my 30 screen and 40 screen for my 2f and I have suddenly increased my two f yield to 70%!

[Vettepilot]

When pressing your powder into pucks be aware that the particles of powder do not
compress and compact themselves instantly. It takes several minutes for the particles
and the small amount of moisture in the pressing to re-arrange themselves into their
more compact form with evenly distributed moisture.

How much pressure is actually needed to press the pucks? Higher pressures will compress
the mix more rapidly but lower pressures will also yield a very dense product with a little
more time.

Some have already discovered that the pressing operation must be done incrementally by
several pressings at ten to twenty minute intervals. With each pressing allow the
particles sufficient time to become more dense. With pressures as low as 500 lbs. the
pressings will become equally dense given sufficient time for the particles to occupy
their most dense positions.

In the old days the pressing operation lasted nearly an hour for each batch with the
lower pressures available then. That much time was necessary for a large batch of
several layers in the machine. With today's higher pressures and smaller batch sizes
the pressing can be done much faster. But never instantly. Time is necessary.

Keep up the excellent work men! Your experiences and tips are very, very helpful.

You are spot on with this post. However, It's not only the moisture distribution that doesn't happen instantly, It's also the plastic flow of the liquified sulphur.

Here's some corroborating info for your post regarding pressing and how it used to be done:

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/...-pressing.html

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

A theory is just an idea thats not been proved out yet - that one dont work at my place -
I keep my stuff as dry as I possibly can sos I dont get clumping in the mill - needs some water to press it -
I cant get a decent mix with the right amount of water so I ball it up, grate it through some window screen mesh then press it - otherwise I get spotty pucks out of the press (not evenly damped) If I spray enough water to get a good mix at first then its too wet in the press (most all fellers are gonna make their first mix too wet for pressing)
Tried the alcohol water thing = waste of time I reckon.

Interesting, (as always), Indian Joe. So you granulate your powder, then press. I'm thinking the freshly granulated would likely be a bit too wet to press immediately. Do you let it dry a bit?? How do you determine when it's ready to press?

Off subject, but another question... heard anything from Fly? I miss his posts. You and he both offer up excellent tips and advise!

Vettepilot

[HighUintas]

Hey VP, I hope your doctor visit went okay and good health abounds!

[HighUintas]

I was just thinking last night.. all of these different types of wood have different densities and chemical makeup, and the specific process under which that wood is turned a charcoal will also result in different chemical composition of the charcoal and therefore density as well. I'm primarily thinking of balsa wood here. It's extremely fast black powder and extremely low density wood. Surely the charcoal made from balsa wood is also much different density than Willow. So, I would think that the standard 15% charcoal recipe doesn't always apply when trying to optimize a specific black powder recipe. Who is going to do some experimentation to figure that out for a variety of woods?

[DoubleBuck]

I was just thinking last night.. all of these different types of wood have different densities and chemical makeup, and the specific process under which that wood is turned a charcoal will also result in different chemical composition of the charcoal and therefore density as well. I'm primarily thinking of balsa wood here. It's extremely fast black powder and extremely low density wood. Surely the charcoal made from balsa wood is also much different density than Willow. So, I would think that the standard 15% charcoal recipe doesn't always apply when trying to optimize a specific black powder recipe. Who is going to do some experimentation to figure that out for a variety of woods?

I think your point is probably what Goex was saying when under 'Composition' they said By weight, 8-18% charcoal. 9-20% Sulfur and 70-75% KNO3. I bet your density thoughts are just what that is saying. That is, or seems to me to be, a very wide variance on all three chemicals, for some reason. 10% on charcoal, 11% on Sulfur and 5% on Nitrate. I nominate you, to do the experimenting. lol

[indian joe]

Interesting, (as always), Indian Joe. So you granulate your powder, then press.

no no no no - I just cant get a proper mix with the small amount of water (I use a little pump sprayer/ spritzer) so I stir it round, then ball it up by hand, grate the balls through a window screen mesh into a bowl, mix again, then its good to go into the press - if I dont do that then I get "spotty pucks" out of the press - they got little dark spots on em where the moisture didnt mix good enough. If I put enough moisture in to get an even mix first time then its too wet to press properly.

Pressing needs some moisture but by golly it dont take much - we are in a low humid environment (think Arizona/New Mexico)

Think Fly has disappeared - he does that a bit - hope he's ok - his posts here got me sorted - I ignored everything else for a time and just followed what he said.



I'm thinking the freshly granulated would likely be a bit too wet to press immediately.
You're thinking screened powder here - different process - yeah way too wet to press - I do screened for front loaders - pressed for cartridge - screened is quicker - easier - and you got much better control over grain size (much less dust and fines)



Off subject, but another question... heard anything from Fly? I miss his posts.

Vettepilot

......

[indian joe]

I think your point is probably what Goex was saying when under 'Composition' they said By weight, 8-18% charcoal. 9-20% Sulfur and 70-75% KNO3. I bet your density thoughts are just what that is saying. That is, or seems to me to be, a very wide variance on all three chemicals, for some reason. 10% on charcoal, 11% on Sulfur and 5% on Nitrate. I nominate you, to do the experimenting. lol

Not me ! I work on the aint broke dont fix it principle - but I am gonna do sea monkeys' idea of maintaining pressure for longer, and see if we gain a bit of density.
Had had those thoughts about charcoal density before but I have ample supply of willow just out my back door - it works - I like it - end of story.
what might be interesting is experimenting with sulphur content - supposedly that is what controls ignition temperature and need it to make a flintlock work - might be we could reduce that for cartridge guns? Less stink - more power? - and its the expensive component of the mix.............................................

[DoubleBuck]

Not me ! I work on the aint broke dont fix it principle - but I am gonna do sea monkeys' idea of maintaining pressure for longer, and see if we gain a bit of density.
Had had those thoughts about charcoal density before but I have ample supply of willow just out my back door - it works - I like it - end of story.
what might be interesting is experimenting with sulphur content - supposedly that is what controls ignition temperature and need it to make a flintlock work - might be we could reduce that for cartridge guns? Less stink - more power? - and its the expensive component of the mix.............................................

Joe, you should be able to get Sulfur very reasonable. Duda Diesel sells 10 pounds >99.5% pure Sulfur, for $11.38, before shipping. Walmart sells 5 pounds of the exact Duda product, for $17.64. That equates to about $.35 cents per pound of finished powder.
I'm with you, on the longer wait time, on the pucks. I think I'm going to try a couple dry again, too, with a long wait time and see what they do.

[Vettepilot]

For what it's worth on experimenting with the pressing. As I recall, it was considered important to periodically release the pressure, and then re-apply. Not sure why, but it would be easy to include in the experimentation. (Sorry, can't provide a citation---> in that lost data of mine...)

All this interesting speculation has me wanting to change my current project timeline, and get back to playing with BP!!

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

Just a little side note here. We don't want to scare off newbies with unnecessary complexity. The simple processes here DO WORK, as shown by hard data from posters to whom we are grateful. Whether doing screened powder or pressed, one can do it and enjoy success with the simplest of processes such as throwing a paint can of even remotely suitable wood in a campfire, grinding the 3 components together, and then either screening or pressing the powder.

Otherwise, it's just the tinkers and curious among us here that like to experiment, and hence the talk of finding the very best wood, exploring charring temps, playing with formulas and methods, pressing techniques, etc., etc. This is all unnecessary to just go ahead and make imminently useful powder for shooting. It's just a curse us tinkers live with---> we can't leave "good enough" alone and are driven to research, study, and experiment.

So don't be intimidated by our ongoing speculation and experimentation. Just make ya up some powder and go shootin'!! As Indian Joe is fond of saying, "If it works don't fix it!"

;~)

Vettepilot

[Paramax55]

Speaking of speculation.. I've been speculating that binder might be beneficial after all... if just a little water does something to "activate" the ingredients and make them bind better, maybe just a touch of bider could also make the batch bind better. Not to increase density, but maybe to get fewer fines from the grinding process? Maybe give up a small ammount of power to get less reprocessing of the fines?

[Paramax55]

As far as dwell time... I've noticed that it seems when my pucks are done, they are done. I'll put the initial squeeze on them and the pressure will back off within a couple of minutes. Then it will back off again one or two times over the next 20-30 minutes. After that, it remains steady - even overnight. Letting off and redoing the pressure would be easy to try.

[Vettepilot]

Speaking of speculation.. I've been speculating that binder might be beneficial after all... if just a little water does something to "activate" the ingredients and make them bind better, maybe just a touch of bider could also make the batch bind better. Not to increase density, but maybe to get fewer fines from the grinding process? Maybe give up a small ammount of power to get less reprocessing of the fines?

Hmmm... That's an interesting theory, with the only downside being that binders slow the burn rate. I don't think it would take much though. One per cent?? Then there's whether to use Dextrin, Red Gum, Acacia Gum, or SGRS (Rice Starch.)

Man! This experimentation could turn into a full time job!!

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

Interesting:

https://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/t...-black-powder/

Vettepilot

[DoubleBuck]

For what it's worth on experimenting with the pressing. As I recall, it was considered important to periodically release the pressure, and then re-apply. Not sure why, but it would be easy to include in the experimentation. (Sorry, can't provide a citation---> in that lost data of mine...)

All this interesting speculation has me wanting to change my current project timeline, and get back to playing with BP!!

Vettepilot

That's what I recall, as well. And, don't remember why. Which, releasing pressure is something I've done on several pucks, too. For no particular reason, but sometimes I'll cycle them from zero to 20, two or three times in two or three minutes. BUT, I'm usually tired and ready to get the pressing done and am not, or have not been, too high on letting them set. I'm going to definitely give that a try, but will have to make a couple to compare against that and then try to decipher the results. I really hope the time deal is bogus. haha Or that more pressure is king and overrides time. ha

[DoubleBuck]

To anyone new to this medieval Black Art, I agree with VettePilot. If you keep it simple, you will make the best Powder, known to man.
Meanwhile, there are a few points you can take from this thread, to ponder on.
1) You can bake your charcoal, deep fry it, or cook it on an open fire. All three make the best powder. Or, you can use retort or an updraft system. They both make the best powder, that we know of.
2)You can use any one of 3,672 woods or natural products. They all make the best black powder. While very light, low density wood makes the best powder, very dark, dense and slow growing woods will make the best powder, you can make.
3)You can use water, but distilled water makes the best powder, or you can use Alcohol and no water or water and alcohol, as it makes the better powder.
4) If you want the best powder you can make, you want to use Stump Remover from Wal-Mart. But if you want to make the best powder ever made, use lab grade KNO3. It just costs a dollar to go first class.
5) All the best powder is milled for 72 hours, but if you want to make it even better, mill it for four and have it certified Kosher.
6) If you want to make the best powder you can make, wet it, screen it and let it dry. But if you want to top your best, press it for four hours dry or 37 seconds wet, with a four million pound press. Either way makes your best powder.
7) To make the best powder, you can use five different ways to bust your pucks, and anything from free screens, to the $200 variety. Both ways are the best and will give you the most reliable and fastest, greatest lift; while retaining cleanliness.
8) Drying your powder and storage are keys to making your best powder. You can dry it one of only two ways. Hair dryer, stove, open pit fire, dehydrator, and slow cooker. Only these two ways will give you the best results.
Storing your powder, again, can only be done in one of two ways. Cans, bottles, vacuum packed bags, tin cans, five gallon cans, used coffee cans or three thousand dollar canning machines. But only these two ways will yield the best results.
If you're short on humor and long on patience, you will make your best powder.
I'm doing all I can to help, in both areas. Buck

[Paramax55]

Doublebuck - true words.

As far as a binder slowing burn rate... if you were to use only 1% ot so, I'm not imagining that it would make a huge difference. I gave some 38 sp and 357 mag rounds to a friend (I only have a 38). He said he loaded 38 and 357, every other in the cylinder, and he couldn't feel any difference. He didn't chrono them, but the volume difference was a 22 case's worth of powder. That's more than 1%, so I'm thinking that binder wouldn't be an issue. I need to make some more powder this week and I have some red gum. I hope to give it a try.