Saying hi and how i think i can be of service

[MIBULLETS]

Dave from CH4D told me that the spec on a .357 swage die was that the min size is .357 and the max is .358. So, by that I am guessing they hold to .001 , most are probably better than that but that is the spec he gave me.

Now Corbin states in his literature that bullets of the exact diameter to slightly larger than normally shoot the best in most firearms. We are talking .0001 to around .0005 over sized. Most loads will not show increased pressure signs with the larger bullet either.

[Radio Flyer]

Neither I, or any of my guns, would probably ever notice a variation of any less than 5/10,000" I'd be interested in seeing random samples of commercial bullets, as well as specialty 1,000 yard bench rest fodder, and their average deviation. With no data, I would not be surprised if the over the counter stuff would show a variation of much greater tolerance in roundness and diameter. They're even a grain and more apart in eight.

I have some bench rest 1,000 yard buddies whose equipment and skills blow me away, and leave me in awe. However, that genre is way beyond my means.

I vote for reasonable quality in available quantity. A .0005" die in the hand is worth two .000005" dies on the waiting list.

I never considered myself to be an impatient person, but to take my money and make me wait a couple years or more just makes me twitch!
Bob

This wait seems to be the general problem, if in stock it is obvious the price is not that much of a deterrent.

I need to go back to my Corbin .308 bullets and measure the dies and consistency (I need to go down to my buds shop and borrow some better measurement tools).

What I can tell you is that the dial and digital calipers could not measure variation from bullet to bullet in the Corbin or the CH4D produced bullets, my tools are just not that high of a quality to start to measure .000+/- (as in better than .00015 if even that) the factory bullets all .355 as the CH4D.

So if we could get a die set that could hold from .0000 to .0005 you could produce bullets as good as or better than any factory offering...

I am good at that point, I think that I could even live with .3555 to .3560 and for my personal use I would be happy (targeting .3555).

[jixxerbill]

Why the doom and gloom Jix? Great thing about so called " cheap" dies is that if one should "explode" it costs less to replace. I was hoping this would just pass over but...... we don't need to scare anyone, it is bad for the hobby. the only thing that scares me is u telling people its ok to use ww lead to swage bullets in a reloading press with your beefed up parts !
I have broke two so called cheap dies. The last one was on purpose to an extent. I was exerting a LOT of force to see just how much I could make a solid base of brass jacket form into a boat tail. There was no explosion and certainly no danger. Simply cracked the die. You would not even know it is broke looking at the die now.
im sure it didnt do more than crack 1) its 12L14 rofl it has the tensile strength of dog poo compared to steel that can be case hardened throughout 2)your reloading press does not make the pressure a swage press is capable of
First die that broke on me was my fault too. A large buldge that formed on my base punch after severial thousand bullets formed. I had incorectly attempted to heat treat the base punch and messed it up by actually making it softer. No longer do that any more. Well it was a wedge that split the die like a banana......same as above inferrior steel, compared. Again no explosion. I did not even know it had broke till severial bullets later.

I know of one other die I have seen broke. A corbin 22 point forming die. It didn't explode either to my knowledge....maybe find out ??. Made two nice halves actually.

I replaced each one my "cheap" die bodies for $57, reused all the internials and have made severial thousand more bullets with it obviously getting my money back. How much do suppose it would cost to replace a Corbin?

Moral of story.... I knew I was appling to much pressure. Anyone that has broke a die may say the same thing. When used corretly any die will be quite safe in my oppinion.....if thats the case then why dont u just buy a 20 ft stick of 3/4" cold rolled and make the dies from that ??? J/K J/K PLEASE DONT !!Swage On!

BT

good luck to you !!

[Jim_Fleming]

It's my opinion that Corbin probably tries to make his dies come out about .0002" big. I'm saying he very likely (when making a .357 bullet die he very likely tries to hit .3572" inches in diameter.

That's just an educated guess from a lifetime of machine work and shooting. Hmmm educated guesses, aren't they also called theories?

Jim

Dave from CH4D told me that the spec on a .357 swage die was that the min size is .357 and the max is .358. So, by that I am guessing they hold to .001 , most are probably better than that but that is the spec he gave me.

Now Corbin states in his literature that bullets of the exact diameter to slightly larger than normally shoot the best in most firearms. We are talking .0001 to around .0005 over sized. Most loads will not show increased pressure signs with the larger bullet either.

[Radio Flyer]

It's my opinion that Corbin probably tries to make his dies come out about .0002" big. I'm saying he very likely (when making a .357 bullet die he very likely tries to hit .3572" inches in diameter.

That's just an educated guess from a lifetime of machine work and shooting. Hmmm educated guesses, aren't they also called theories?

Jim

That would be hypothesis...

In the general conversation we are dealing with several issues.

Supply and demand (at this point lack of supply and I hope a rising demand)

Marketing (this includes pricing)

Craftsmanship and production (no one is going to say that Corbin does not make a premium product)

Fandom (I would fit in that category regardless of my past business - I love reloading and shooting)

I wish I could be confident that my tools are accurate enough to say .0000 accuracy I am even skeptical of .000...

[Jim_Fleming]

Thank you for the correction, RF. Seriously.

I routinely work to about +.002 to -.002 on a daily basis, that helps, and often I have to work to right on the money... It comes with experience.

I'd like to see more supply, as it were, the Corbins aren't getting any younger on a daily basis, and personally I have no idea about Dave Corbin, but I have heard, from on here, that Richard Corbin is running a one (1) man shop.

I wish no one ill will by any stretch of the imagination, I'd just like to see the wealth get spread about a bit more, as most of us would.

RF, you've got an interesting blog, I like how you illustrated your holster modification, but I also don't wish to hijack this thread, it's not mine.

That would be hypothesis...

In the general conversation we are dealing with several issues.

Supply and demand (at this point lack of supply and I hope a rising demand)

Marketing (this includes pricing)

Craftsmanship and production (no one is going to say that Corbin does not make a premium product)

Fandom (I would fit in that category regardless of my past business - I love reloading and shooting)

I wish I could be confident that my tools are accurate enough to say .0000 accuracy I am even skeptical of .000...

[Radio Flyer]

Thank you for the correction, RF. Seriously.

I was just showing some nerd there...

I'd like to see more supply, as it were, the Corbins aren't getting any younger on a daily basis, and personally I have no idea about Dave Corbin, but I have heard, from on here, that Richard Corbin is running a one (1) man shop.

I wish no one ill will by any stretch of the imagination, I'd just like to see the wealth get spread about a bit more, as most of us would.

I think we are all on the same page here, we don’t want to see swaging disappear, we would all benefit from more participants and more suppliers for dies, jackets, wire, and more. I am admitting to “fandom” status, all swage is good swage

I am very worried about the fact that the Corbin brothers are aging and not passing down the company, increasing diemakers and machinists so that prices could drop and supply would increase.

RF, you've got an interesting blog, I like how you illustrated your holster modification, but I also don't wish to hijack this thread, it's not mine.

Thanks, I just do what I do, unhindered, like a personal journal.

[scrapcan]

Interesting note on stress in dies. On should look at hoop and longitudinal stress and failure of thin and thick walled pressure vessels.

Interesting to note that most times they fail in longitudinal stress rather than hoop stress. Hoop is around, longitudinal is along.

Thus is the reason one sees dies split or firearm barrels for that matter.

[NoZombies]

My only addition to the thread is to correct the misuse of the term "case hardened"

Case hardening is, by definition, a surface treatment. Carbon migration can be measured at a depth of X .001" per minute at X temperature when everything is properly prepared. This is repeatable. The point of case hardening is to have a hardened surface while maintaining a malleable core.

The term is often misused when people mean "heat treated."

[Buckshot]

My only addition to the thread is to correct the misuse of the term "case hardened"

Case hardening is, by definition, a surface treatment. Carbon migration can be measured at a depth of X .001" per minute at X temperature when everything is properly prepared. This is repeatable. The point of case hardening is to have a hardened surface while maintaining a malleable core.

The term is often misused when people mean "heat treated."

...........Yup, too true. High carbon steel may be 'Through' hardened, ie: hard all the way across the section. Low carbon steel only hardens on it's surface due to heating in a carbon rich environment which inparts free carbon to the steel's surface. The M1 Garand reciever was forged 8620, a high alloy/low carbon steel which was then selectively surface/case hardened. The German Mauser actions were designed around forged low alloy/low carbon steel primarily due to the lack of readily available strategic alloys, especially in time of war. They were also selectively surface hardened to increase strength in the areas requiring it.

................Buckshot

[midnight]

Just ran across this thread. I live in S. Wisconsin but my brother is in Conover, WI, only about 10 mi from Land O Lakes. He is retired and a shooter and bullet caster. He did tons of machining at Chrysler in Kenosha before retiring. He has a big 3hp Millport mill with power feed, and an old SouthBend lathe from the 40s. He doesn't have a computer so PM me if if youwould like to contact him.

Bob

[u.p. north]

Hi guys,
Sorry I haven't been able to be here for some while. I had some personal things come up but all is well now. I am planning on starting on a number of presses this coming week for those of you that are interested. I am wondering if those of you that showed interest would please p.m. me. Once again I am very sorry about the inconvenience. If it would be not to much to ask let me know what threads you would need in the ram and top plate. I can customize to a certain point and make the needed bushings to adapt to your dies that you have already.
Thanks,
U.P.

[u.p. north]

Hi Guys,
Got a good start cutting up the material today for 4 presses. I have one of the four spoken for. If you are interested in a press let me know. I will update tommorrow with some pictures of the progress. The first four will be sold for $650 plus shipping to you. These will be not painted, and not assembled. But they will be test assembled. Once again either P.M. me or express your interest by giving a reply. Also you will receive the press within two weeks.


Thanks,
U.P.



link for picture of press below
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/pict...pictureid=3092

[RANGER RICK]

Looks like a very nice heavy duty press. How does it compare to a Walnut Hill press ??
Thanks

RR

[u.p. north]

The plates on these are 1" thick. Toggle assembly is 1.5" square with .75" arms rosette welded and side welded for max strength. Toggle links are .5" thick. Ram is 1.5" solid 1045 tgp and guide rods are 1" solid chrome plated shaft. Top plate has 1.5"x12 t.p.i. hole and end of ram has 7/8"x14 t.p.i. . All holes are align bored to align everything parallel and perpendicular. Handle is solid cold rolled 1" diameter for maximum rigidity. These presses take quite a while to make and built to very precise tolerance. There is over 150 dollars alone in material in each press. I believe you would be getting a very good deal by purchasing this press and not with as long of a wait as the competition has. As for dies I am working on them also and am looking at something along a cheaper set of dies.I can customize these presses and also make adapters or other rams for your standard reloading presses. I have a full machine shop to do this .

Thanks,
U.P.

[scrapcan]

Oh also fogot to mention in the hoop and longitudinal stess calculations one has to deal with the smaller section of the die and calculate pressures based on those areas. You may not exceed the tensile strength on the driving band portion but could on the nose or the bleed holes in core die or LSWC die.

But again it will generally fail in the longitudinal stress direction and not in the hoop.

I have also been collecting literature on swaging for some time now and the common theme is what we all face and has been mentioned in this thread.

1) supply of acceptable ( this is an individual decison we each have to mull over) dies
2) lack of suppliers for those dies - for most there just is not enough profit in making and selling dies, it becomes a hobby of love that turns into more work than a hobbiest can get done, which leads to unhappy customers.
3) As shooters, casters, reloaders we are a group of cheap SOBs and expect the best for the absolute least amount of money.
4) Our lack of taking responsibility in our own actions and assuming the responsibility after said actions. In this I think about one who cracks a die and then cries foul on the die maker. Who was at the helm when the die cracked? That operator likely has very little in the way of formal education in failure analysis and thus the blame goes to an inferior product, instead of breaking down eact action taken and findign the real cause. Kind of like the 2 inch pipe wrench that broke due to a 4 foot cheater pipe being slid over the handle and then returning it to Sears for a replacment.

An interesting read on the above is the section in Discover Swaging, Chapter 32 page 254, by David R. Corbin that recounts a letter that was sent out by Biehler (Ray) and Aistles (Walt) Penned in July 1957 to their customers. Very interesting reading.

I would really like to see a supplier of equipment for this segment of our hobby that we could all afford, but I am afraid there are few people who consider doing this as a labor of love so the rest of us can also see it that way.

[PatMarlin]

I just got through finding and reading through this thread. I have so many thoughts on the subject, but now to tired to put them down ...

There is a reason for the 2 year wait with Corbins.

There are different planet worlds- light years away between making a set of dies, and making dies to a spec tolerance, but then comes the big one- producing said dies, in spec, on a production level at a reasonable price and be able to ship within a few weeks and keep stock.

Buckshot tried to give a few clues here on this. Anyone who has tried to manufacture their own product soon learns a multitude of these lessons.

I don't know much about swaging, but when I see the presses and various dies required and the labor alone needed to manufacture them- Holy Cow! there's no surprise with the Corbin wait and cost.

To be able to spit out these dies at the acceptable quality and price, with the reasonable wait time you guys want, it would take some very high precision CNC equipment at a staggering investment for a one man shop to pull off, and produce.

Even if you had employees, with precision manual machines, or with a mix of manual and CNC the cost would be higher, and I bet the wait times still lengthy.

Add into the equation, the small market- minuscule compared to many others, the numbers start to look bleak.

So- this is why IMO the Corbins have made a living at chugging along with steep prices, and crazy long wait times- and with no one to take the reins when they are ready to retire.

Being a good tool and die machinist is one thing. Being able to produce the end product for market consistently and timely is the hard part.

Until you go through it, it's not easy to see all the steps required. It is a tremendous undertaking.

[PatMarlin]

And with that 2 bits of wisdom, I've got to get out in the shop, start the woodstove and get to work! ..

[scrapcan]

Pat,

All of your comments are right on. The 1957 letter metnioned above said that B&A had a one year to 18 month back log at that time. I have info from Ted Smith of SAS that relayed he offered his die making phamplet to help alleviate some of the issues with this topic. I also spoke with a guy who knew him well and lived close by that said the same thing.

It is a very interesting topic and fun to boot. But a bit on the spendy side. And a bit of a steep learning curve to learn to do this on your own.

[PatMarlin]

Let me say I'm definitely not trying to rain on an idea or someone coming in and providing a product for us. It is a great thing, but just keep eyes wide open and go steady and slow and that way feelings don't get hurt from all involved.

The stress is overwhelming at times to be there for customers and make it happen. I have gone through hell the past 2.5 years, and only now is the pressure just slightly starting to lighten up. I started from scratch which makes it harder, but no matter what the same principals and pitfalls surface.