Swaging

[Jack Stanley]

I started with the rimfire jacket maker for the six m/m bullets and later found a "deal" on a .22 set . I've also got a core mold and draw die to squeeze the lead down to wire and a couple of forming dies and such . Somewhere along the line I think I ended up with a set of .45 dies for the 1911 guns and all . Things got into a buying frenzy for a while
Fortunately I got more into highpower and surplus bullets for cheap came along . Finding a market and working that is a good bit of advice , I really wouldn't want to compete with the big boys . But in the back of my mind the idea was , if jacketed bullets was gonna keep getting more expensive . I was gonna make good bullets on the cheap for myself . It is easy enough to do , just time consuming if you want to do it right .

Jack

[Red River Rick]

There is an alternative method, barrel plating or barrel tumbling. The process was or still is used to copper plate .22 rimfire bullets.

I have a Corbin Hydro press and have been swaging bullets for a number of years now, mostly for myself and buddies, no retail. The same thought came to my mind a few years ago in regards to plating lead bullets. I did some seaching and spoke to a number of people at various plating shop hoping to find some answers. The electo-plating process would be most desired, but unfortunately, seemed to be quite expensive if your only going to do a few thousand rounds.

One fellow suggested barrel plating and was willing to do a batch for me. I gave him a few hundred .450/250 gr. RNHP pure lead swaged bullet, originally intended for M/L with sabots. The results weren't quite what I had expected, the plating was good but the bullet took a bit of a beating. The edges had been rounded off and the remaining surfaces seemed dimpled.

I discussed this problem with the plater and he suggested that a larger batch (more volume, less tumbling) would work better. A second batch was done up and the results were much better. There was still some slight rounding over on the edges and light dimpling.

The overall diameter had increased by 0.0012" - 0.0015". I decided to take the bullets and re-swage them in a 0.452 core seating die with the same style nose punch. The results were very impressive, no dimples and nice clean edges. The bullet looked like it was solid copper or fully jacketed. The swaging process actually bonded the copper to the lead, encasing it in a complete copper jacket.

I'm assuming that if the bullets were made from W/W or harder, the rounding over and dimpling would probably be reduced greatly. Perhaps cast bullets would work as well. A .356 dia could be plated up to .357-.358. Could be interesting.

I attaching a picture, hopefully it'll work.


RRR

[Bent Ramrod]

4FingerMick,

Finding a niche market is tricky. If you want to make competition bullets, it's best to be a top-flight competitor yourself; that's how Walt Berger's bullet manufacturing started. Another maybe more universal niche is oddball sizes; a lot of military 6.5 mms seem to have bores closer to 0.267" than 0.264," Ross .280's are supposed to be 0.287" and then there's the ever-popular Carcano at 0.300".

Not to mention my own personal bete noire, a Remington Model 8 in .25 Remington whose bore is 0.260." I was buying bullets of this size from DKT at fifty cents a pop before I made a die to squeeze 120-grain 0.263" bullets down a bit.

The problem is finding a large-enough market of cranks to make it worth the capital investment. Each die set, .401 Winchester, . 5.6 Vom Hofe, the 9.3's, various Drilling calibers, odd 11mm's, etc., would need its own clientele. Nobody'd want to arm wrestle with you once you got your customer base set up .

Jammersix,

Somebody already makes copper plated lead pistol bullets, but I can't think of the name now. The plating is pretty good, however they do it. I usually find one or two undamaged ones in my range scrap, and to melt the lead out of them I have to break the plating by cutting or squeezing.

[Buckshot]

Buckshot question for ya when you turn a swage die do "you" harden it when complet if so how ya do it. Have a lathe and a old hurters swage 2 ton press, would easy enough to turn die's for it.

...............I don't bother to heat treat them. I just use a lot fatter steel (technical engineering term).



This is Richard Corbin's Walnut Hill press. The swage die itself threads into the hole in the ram. The forming punch goes in the threaded hole in the top of the press. The plate carrying the swage die rides up and down those hard chromed hydraulic cylinder rods through aluminum bronze bushings.



In the left photo is a dieset I made to form Pritchit style 58 cal Minie' boolits. On the left in the photo is the ejector. Center is the swage die, and on the right is the base cavity rod which IS hardened. The ejector assembly drops down inside the ram and rests on a internal ledge. With the ejector in place a rod goes through that hole, and the spring around the ram sits atop the rod. That keeps the ejector down against the ledge. You can see the slot for it in the ram in the upper left photo. There is also a bar that slides through the slot in the ram.

The long pin goes up through the swage die. When you lower the ram after swaging, the ejector body contacts the bar through the ram so the ejector body stops moving. The swage die continues down, consequently the ejector pin then pushes the swaged slug up out of the die. In the far right photo you can see the ejector pin in the swage die.

The swage die body is nothing more then 1-1/4" 1045 medium carbon steel shafting. The ejector pin is high speed steel and it's body is W-1. The base cavity punch on the right is also W-1 which has been hardened. I've been dinking around with color case and actually got some pretty nice results on the base punch, but my old 1 mpx HP camera didn't do a very good job of reproducing them.

The punch fits up inside a die looking type affair in the top of the press. You can see it's threaded part in the right photo. It has a centrally hung rod threaded 1/4-28 on the end, and the base punch threads on that. The flange of the base punch fits against it's base. This allows the base plunger to float. When setting it up you run the swage die up over the base punch, then tighten that rod to capture the punch exactly in the die.



On the left going in is a Lee 58 cal Target Minie' which is a wadcutter, and coming out on the right is a smooth Pritchit style Minie' boolit. You can see the ejector pin under the Minie'.



I had gotten a Snider Carbine and these need a Minie' close to .600" OD so I made another swage die to bump up .580" Minie' boolits to .598". The doner slug is on the right and the result is on the left. The bumped up one doesn't look as shiney as it's a bit rumpled from using a tad bit too much lube. Doesn't have any effect on it's accuracy though.

.................Buckshot

[Buckshot]

Then I made a die and punch set to form HBWC's or HBWC's with a hollowpoint, or plain based WC's with or without hollowpoints. On the left is a Lee 148gr WC that has been HB'd. Then a Lee 358-158TC that has been HB'd and turned into a WC and ditto on the far right. That's a Lyman 358430, 195gr RN after being through the die.



On the left is Richard Corbin's 5 cavity core mould. In the right photo up top are rods I parted off to varying lengths for the core mould. You lay on in the cavity and then run the depth plunger up to it, then repeat in each cavity. This way your cores are pretty close in weight.



Forming cores. From the length of those extruded lead pieces you can see I had cast up cores a bit too heavy! Ideally you should only extrude really short pieces. The press has enough juice to shoot the lead out like tooth paste.



Nose and cup based formed slugs. These were just a weensy heavy at 580grs. However it was my first core casting and swaging operation so I went ahead and used them.



These are more like it. They're 540grs and have a hollowpoint. To form a HP you can put spacers under the ejector pin body so the pin will ride higher in the swage die. In addition to, or instead of that you can also put spacers under the pin itself in the ejector body. If you do both you can make a REALLY deep HP cavity. However the pin needs to be tapered to get the slug off of it, and then it's still kind of hard.

...............Buckshot

[Jammer Six]

Buckshot, I didn't understand a word you said, but I see very shiny results!

I suspect the same would be true if I described production techniques for stick framing compound hip roofs, and I figure it means that I'm asking questions in the right place.

Tell me something.

I shoot between 200 and 500 rounds a week, depending on classes.

I can (more or less) keep up with that habit reloading.

How much time does it take to swage that many boolits? (Which I understand is the correct spilling.)

[Buckshot]

............If all you're doing is bumping or swageing a cast slug, it takes about as long to swage one as it does to cast one. However, if you're swageing from cores the core forming takes longer then swageing the finished cores to final shape. Swageing to final shape similarly takes about as long to do as in casting one.

However core forming requires you to wait until the lead quits moving out of the bleed hole. When you form a core you exert tremendous pressure. I don't know how much if any die expansion (and then contraction) adds to lead extrusion, but your press definately streatches, while other parts compress. You have to wait until it all quits moving, ie: no more extruded lead movement.

The idea behind forming cores is to make cores that weigh exactly the same as the next. Swageing, bumping, etc already cast and lubed boolits requires you scale segregate them beforehand or that you can live with them that way (as cast and lubed). Normally the form die has no bleed hole so there is really no place for lead from a heavier slug to go. That is other then possibly down past one punch or the other, which is not good.

Once you've run a bunch of already cast slugs through a die with no bleed hole, you'll be able to tell when one is fully formed and can be ejected merely by the effort on the handle.



This is a swage die I made for a freind who got the idea of making jacketed slugs for his 35 Whelen out of 30 M1 carbine brass. You use it in a hydraulic press. Photo on the left is the die assembled. On the right are the 3 parts. You fill the cases with molten lead which is what he said he was going to do. I guess you could drop in a core too, if you had cores . The punch is used to compress the core and to slightly expand the casewalls.



Then you take the die body off the base and tap the punch to eject the jacketed core. There is a die which I didn't get a photo of that goes in a reloading press. You run the jacketed core up into it to form the nose. You have to then tap the ejector pin down and kind of wiggle the finished slug a bit to get it off. Makes a kind of bluntly rounded HP............. with an extractor groove, HA! He says it works great and a 2 ton bottle jack is just right for compressing and expanding the core and the casewalls.



A simple shape altering swage is like this one I made for use in a reloading press. Top is the die body, in the middle is the ejector rod with a SWC nose punch and next to it a full WC nose punch. The ejector rod goes down through a depth gage that threads into the top of the die. The depth gage merely stops the nose punch at some point.

Below that is the base punch that goes into the ram to form a HB. Or, if you use the full WC nose punch you can use that end for the base and use the ram mounted HB punch to actually form a mojo HP like below.




The above were all run through the press mounted bump die. Other then they cut nice round holes I'm not aware of any other particular utility for them!

................Buckshot

[OLPDon]

Buckshot: Wow it takes me time just to write a few lines just to ask a question I expected a simple YES or NO answer. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
I expect just like me many onboard the this Thread will copy Past and keep it with there highly prized possessions. Buckshot you never cease to amaze! Or perhaps you have too much time on your hands

Oh by the way did I say "Thank You yet?" If not THANK YOU
Don

[arkypete]

Jammer
I swage bullets for 45 acp (.452), 45 Colt (.454), 38 spec and 357 (.3585). Should say I'm using a Corbin press and dies. I've got the nose punches for wad cutters and semi wadcutters. Plain based bullets and basegard bullets. Using the knurling tools and lubing the bullets with Lee liquid or using Corbin's liquid lube works but is a pain in the lower regions. The basegard system is the way to go, once the bullet is made it's ready to shoot, no knurling, no lubing.
I use a *** Lee six cavity 45 mold 220 grain ?? for making cores and a Lyman 150 grain 4 cavity for making 38s and 357s. I also use all of my culls for cores if they look any where to close.
I've tinkered with regular gas checks, then knurled them and lubed. There's something awe inspiring about a 255 grain full wad cutter.
For lead material I use wheel weights for the plain base. And nearly pure lead for the basegard bullets,
For swaging lube I make my own 50/50 caster oil/ lanolin.
Hope this helps.
Jim

[Four Fingers of Death]

Buckshot, you always amaze me, how many levels is your reloading/casting/swaging/machine shop on?

I'm a bit pooped and I'll come back to this, my eyes are just glazing over at the moment.

I think you are right about being a credible competitor in a certain sport to get rapid acceptance. I was thinking about maybe getting one bullet size that I could also use and slowly picking away maybe giving some freebies to a good shooter,planting a seed so to speak. Anyway, I dont foresee any great success catering for a group I don't actually participate with. No credibity and no real understanding of their issues. Kinda like a Benchrester who uses hand tooled jacketed bullets trying to break into the lead bullet game and make money out of it. With that in mind, I think the only area I would have any credibility is with the hunting crowd and with the ex mil crowd. Hunters don't hesitate to use premium bullets and so do some of the serious mil shooters. Woodleigh is an aussie company who make top hunting bullets and would be hard to match. Maybe I should relax and just drive a cab once or twice a fortnight to supplement the income . Mick.

[hawk223]

Hi I am considering buying Corbins 22 jacketed boolit kit. I have a Forster Coax B2 press and was wondering if anyone can tell me the physical size of the dies. The reason being is that the forester handle swings over the die in the press. The one die that looks the biggest is the one with the ejector punch you need to tap to remove the finished boolit. Is this correct? What distance from the shell holder to the top of the die is required when at the top of the stroke? Any other important dimensions you think I have missed would be greatly appreciated. Also the handle clearance narrows, at 1" spacing I have about 5" of clearance between the bottom of the lock ring and the handle. There is 5/8" from the shell holder adapter to the bottom of the lock ring.

If I have to buy a new press I am unsure about corbins press as it is expensive and I doubt I would make any other kind of jacketed boolit as the materials will cost just as much as buying them. I am interested in the arbor press adapter for it though and the press is supposed to be a lot faster.

Thank you.

[30yrcaster]

Hawk223,

Before you buy any Dave Corbin equipment, check out and talk to his brother Richard Corbin at RCE http://www.rceco.com/ especially about using a coax press.

Dave Corbin will sell you stuff then later you'll find you need more stuff and you'll end up spending more than you originally planned. Richard Corbin will talk straight to you and won't rip you off.

I've been swaging since the mid 80's, lead, jacketed, vld, br & rimfire jacketed. If you're thinking of using 22 shells for jackets, it's a pain in the butt. You have to anneal them or the rims will rip off unless the brass is quite new. If you use shells picked up from the range, you'll have alot of bad bullets you can't use and can't recover the lead from inside them. The punches will wear out with the residue left in the rims acting as an abrasive. When this happens, the rims won't iron out all the way and will leave a crease at the base. You'll find you need extra punches. Rimfire jackets also have velocity limitations. Because they aren't thicker in the shank and near the bottom, high velocity can rip the jackets off in flight. The bullets end up around 52-53 grns.

Don't buy into the crap that rebated boattail bullets are superior to std boattail bullets. It's a manufacturing ease to make rebated boattails vs non-rebated. It's a design from the 1930's, over 70 years ago. Lapua who still makes fmj target bullets doesn't call them their premier bullets any more.

As for jackets, you can buy them at Brunos http://www.brunoshooters.com/Merchan...tegory_Code=20
Lester Bruno is a big BR guy.

You can also buy them from Berger. Sierra sells jackets also. You can get smaller quantity from RCE as well.

If Dave Corbin doesn't have the size jackets you want he'll try to sell you jacket reducing dies to take larger ones to create smaller ones then also sell you cuttoff dies to remove the excess length, all this instead of just telling you to buy from Berger or someone who has what you need.

Don't have the dies for the reloading presses so can't help you there. Reloading presses require more effort than the ones made for swaging.

Good luck!!

[Bent Ramrod]

Hawk223,

The handle of my Bonanza B2 (Forster with a brown paint job) clears the ejector pin pusher when installed on the Corbin die. I would heed 30yrcaster's advice about getting advice on using a Co-Ax press for swaging. Check with Forster as well as both Corbins. Not only is that complicated shellholder kind of delicate for your seating and forming pins, but the press linkage also looks kind of light to me, although the pins are supposed to be hardened and ground.

Unless you have a lever ejector, you will need to strike (not heavily, but it is a jolt) the ejector pusher with a mallet of some sort to eject the bullet, and there isn't a lot of room around there to swing one. Also, the floating die feature, which is great for case resizing, might be hazardous to your dies and punches because they have no taper for alignment like there is on most cartridge cases. The Co-Ax is a great loading press, but it and your dies might also wind up being pretty battered by a campaign of bullet making. I like mine a lot, but I've never used it even for case forming, although the literature says it's OK for that.

Haven't worn anything out on my die set yet, but I haven't made more than 2000 bullets or so. Mostly the bullets are for my .22 Hornet, so they're not under a lot of stress. Commercial jackets are much easier to use, but sometimes you have to make or get a special size pin to fit them for core seating.

[schutzen]

I have 2 sets of Corbin dies (.357 &.429) and have swaged with both. Both produce quality bullets. The down side is the cost of the jackets and the lead wire (I was buying mine from Corbin). The lead cores would be very easy to cast, if you had an appropriate mold. Unfortunately, I have not found an economical source for jackets. Retirement is on the horizon, so I may investigate forming my own jackets in the near future. Moral of the story is, while you do not save any money swaging your own it is very satisfying to have “manufactured” your own jacketed bullets. Everyone should try it at least once just to become a more complete shooter.