Sorry, cleaning Question?

[silly goose]

I'm sorry guys. This is only my second time cleaning my new to me muzzleloader, a T/C Renegade. I had her loaded up for the last week til the end of deer season, today. So I shot it to empty it, and shot her again about 6 more times. A week ago, I shot it about a dozen times to get familiar with it on short notice. I brought it home, and cleaned her up real good with warm water and dish soap. I had to do some extensive brushing to get a little rust out of the bottom of the barrel where the load sits. But anyways, I'm cleaning this gun today, and it seems like the more I clean, the more **** comes out of it. I've used the soap and water routine, a little watered down ballistol, and a little straight ballistol. It seems that the more I brush with a patch over the brush, the more stuff comes out. I just cant seem to get a clean patch. I mean, this is not much fun. I've run a damp patch of ballistol down the bore to sit for a few hours, and stuff still comes out. I'm putting the work in folks, it just aint coming clean. Whats up with this?

[silly goose]

I'll bet I've run 40 patches through this gun today, trying to clean it. Patches over the brush, patches over the jag, wet, dry, you name it. I've pumped it through a pot of hot soapy water. And I know clean, did the whole military thing. the patches are coming out a grey, almost greenish color at times. Its not rust, the barrel looks pretty good really. Just not getting clean patches out of her.

[DIRT Farmer]

I have found some strange stuff in used muzzle loaders. My normal system in my flinter is to put the fether in the touch hole, put in your favorite cleaning solution, soap and water is fine, swab a few times, soak a few minuites, swab again, dump out the crud, repete, dry and oil. It takes longer to describe than do. The third patch should be clean. I do know that WD-40 will pull crud out of pits. I shoot black only now for the ease of cleaning amoung other reasons.

[silly goose]

I just went back down stairs with some good hot soapy water and went to scrubbing again. I have only used black powder, and its all I plan to use. I don't really know the history of the barrel. It seems to shoot well, and I'm very happy with it, I was just concerned that I couldn't get a clean patch. It seems pretty good now. I coated everything with ballistol, and I'll check it in a few days. It just seemed like a lot of work this time. I used a mixture of ballistol mixed with water cut about 5/1 to swab the bore between shots, could this have caused the need for more cleaning? The previous time I used bore butter between shots, and it didn't seem to be this difficult. From what I 've read, ballistol is supposed to be pretty good stuff. Thanks for your thoughts fella's.

[DIRT Farmer]

I have used Scotch Brite pads cut as patches to clean up barrels that are a problem. They will clean off surface rust and plastic if sabots have been used in the past. I have used almost every thing you can think of in the past for swabing between shots, now I use spit patches to swab. When I finish loading I put a clean patch in my mouth and chew it into a small ball, as dry as I can chew it. In a T-C be carful not to push damp fouling into the breach chamber. That is the main cause of miss fires.

[Mk42gunner]

My preferred cleaning solution for Blackpowder is hot tap water and Dawn dish soap. I pumpthe water through the nipple a few times then remove it, and pump a few more tiems then rinse with hot water. Let it dry then oil.

While BP normally cleans pretty easily, there is no telling what was in the barrel when you got the gun. After your get it clean this time, it should be a lot easier to clean in the future.

Robert

[CPL Lou]

T/C's have a 'well' at the bottom of the barrel. I noticed that my cleaning jag doesn't touch this part of the barrel at all.
I bought a T/C barrel scraper that gets down into this well and really busts up the carbon that has hardened down in there.
After shooting, but before I get out the hot water/soap, I scrape the bottom of the barrel out real good. I turn the barrel over and pour out all that carbon, then I clean with hot water/soap. Then I use the scraper again, just to make sure I got that 'well' cleaned out. One more turn with the hot water/soap, then I dry it all out and oil it up.
Since I started doing this, I usually get clean patches after only a few trips up and down the barrel.

Lou

[Shooter]

The green and grey may be fouling from Maxiballs (grey) or Power-belt bullets (green). Try a heavy cleaning with Hoppes or Shooters Choice, then re-clean with hot soapy water.

[405]

wackygander,
Sounds like you are doing everything pretty much the right way. If you don't know the history of the gun, I'd bet there could be quite a bit of pitting and scale in the breech area. If it has the patent breech with the cavity in the breech plug that is a prime candidate for accumulation. If the pitting is only in that area where the charge sits and not part of where the conical or patched RB sits or travels no real problem with accurate shooting. The gray, brownish crud could be rust or fouling scale or lead. Any green or blue coming out will be either a result of previously shot jbullets or even bronze brush bristles broken off from previous cleanings. I'd say just keep doing what you're doing and keep the pitted area from getting worse. The hot soapy water then hot rinse then dry patches then oil is the best way I know for cleaning/ maintaining MLs. What you're seeing is very common for old, original MLs or even more modern ones that have a history of incomplete cleaning (a couple of passes with magic potion after shooting so the barrel is left "seasoned") then put away. Sadly, very common.

[2shot]

I use hot water (boiling hot) and dish soap to clean. I dump the hot water/soap into a bucket and then start pumping with a bore mop on a cleaning rod followed by a bronze brush and then new clean hot water/soap with a clean bore mop again. When clean I rinse with boiling water poured down the barrel. While still to hot to handle bare handed but all mosture evaporated I run Ox Yoke patches w/Wonder Lube 1000 up and down the barrel with a tight fitting cleaning jag. It may take 5-6 patches w/ WL 1000 before one comes out clean. I then wipe down the metal surfaces with the same Ox yoke patches w/WL 1000. If your pacthes are loose with the jag try using 2 so that it's tight.

I have been using the Ox Yoke patches w/lube for the last 20 or so years and love them. I never use oil in my ML because of the possible contamination of powder. WL 1000 doesn't contaminate.

One other thing, it may not be but it sounds like you let your rifle sit a few days after firing. Don't know if I miss read your post but if you did let it sitn then you have to learn to clean the same day as shooting. I always clean ASAP. Apoligies if I miss read your post.

2shot

[1Shirt]

Pretty much agree with 2Shot! Used pumped thru the nipple and boiling hot water with dish soap for years when I was competing with front stuffers, followed by clear hot water and air dried. When the bbl was air dry inside from heat, I put a greased patch or two down the bbl of the same that I would use when shooting, followed by a clean patch or two to prevent internal rust.

As to waiting to clean! BIG MISTAKE!!!! Clean as soon as possible after shooting regardless of shooting Black or one of the takeoffs, at least within the same day for sure, and preferably within a couple of hours after shooting.
1Shirt!

[waksupi]

I don't always get every bit of fouling out of the barrels. Some small amount of color on the patch is acceptable to me. The water has neutralized the nasty part of the fouling, so I dry the barrel, and oil it. I live in a dry climate, so have no problems with rusting.

One tip I can give, when you start cleaning black powder, do your first flush with plain old cold water. It will cut fouling much better and faster than hot water. I use cold water for the full process, and have much better luck getting a clean patch at the end of cleaning. Also, you don't get the flash rust you will using the hot water.

[405]

Old, set in my ways, not going to change, so don't try but have a few observations and have always wondered about a few things.

Observations:
Speaking of "modern" MLs here- say post 1960 or so. The ML boom (re-newed interest, liberal ML only hunting seasons, rondies, etc.) of the 70s caused a huge rush to modern sidelock production... like the TC types. During that time a few ye olde sages proclaimed the "correct" way to clean. Many prescribed as gospel that such and such a potion swabbed thru the bore a few times was all that was necessary and that any more cleaning would take the magic "seasoning" off the surface of the bore. I'm sure many followed that advice. Add that method to the basic human nature of laziness. Fast forward to about 1990-present. It seems very large numbers of this first revival of ML interest, mainly basic sidelocks like the TC series, have been coming to the used market as more and more "hightechy, so-called primitive weapon hunters/shooters" switch over to inlines. I've also noticed that many of these used, modern sidelocks from the 70s do have bore damage in one form or another. hmmm?

Always Wondered?:
Why is cold plain water or cold soapy water a better cleaner, solvent or neutralizer of BP fouling than hot water or hot soapy water?

Why is a hot and drying-as-you-swab-with-dry patches barrel/bore which shows a light flash rust on the first drying patch more susceptible to damage than a cold, moist bore (particularly down in the breech area) that doesn't show immediate flash rust but is simply oiled after the cleaning and put up.... less susceptible to damage?

[waksupi]

Good questions. It seems to me that hot water sets the fouling harder in the bore, for some reason, than does cold water. A person would just have to experiment on his own, to see if the same thing holds true for yourself.
As for the older ML's in bad shape, I can imagine that. No one ever told them they had to clean them. The oldest one I have on hand is around 30 years old, and the bore is perfect, with the cleaning methods I have used.

[silly goose]

I clean this ml after shooting it, I haven't waited at all, only as long as it takes to get home. The barrel seems great except for the breech end where the charge is kept. Initial cleaning was rough in that area and I removed some rust. The barrel seems accurate enough, at least for me. It puts two balls touching at 25 off a rest, and I'm good with that. She seems to have smoothed out pretty good with the fairly intense cleaning I've been working on. Thanks for the help guys.

[bubba.50]

using bronze brushes or brass jags i have never been able to get a patch to come out "clean". i've read this is normal as there's some reaction 'tween the brass/cleaner/barrel or some such. clean as you're gettin it should be ok just check it for rust on a regular basis til you see what's what. for what it's worth, bubba.

[cajun shooter]

For what it's worth if you were cleaning after firing then your water and soap will work but it is not meant as a rust remover in any shape or form. Plug your thread hole for nipple and then fill the barrel with Kroil and leave it for a few days. There is as has been posted a scraper sold by T/C that cleans the breech face. Use it and some steel wool on a rod to scrub this area. You may use a spray carb cleaner or brake cleaner to remove all the crud that is broken loose. I would then try straight Ballistol and see what she looks like. I';m afraid to say it but if your charge was Pyrodex or another sub then you may have damage beyond repair. It depends on how far up your barrel it goes. There is a green light in a brass case that is made to put into MZ barrels so that you can see from the breech forward. I love mine and would not be with out it. I think it came from Track of the wolf. Good Luck

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

In the early 70's I put together a couple of "kit" rifles I got from Dixie. During the season I discharged the rifle at the end of the day or if I got real ambitious, pulled the ball. Lets just say I mostly just shot er empty. Some hot water down the barrel, a few dry patches(they never did come out white) and stand her on her nose in the corner till the next day. At the end of the season I took it apart completely including breech plug and used hot water and dish soap. Cleaned all the little crevices with tooth brush and tooth paste. Always found a tiny bit of rust at the barrel bottom/breech plug. Again the patches never came out white. Quick oil wipe and put it away till next season. Always kept a couple of extra wedges and nipples as the little buggers seemed to grow legs and disappear (mysteriously) very regularly.

[silly goose]

Thanks for your thoughts, folks, I think maybe I was expecting too much. I'm sure she's fairly clean, I put a lot of work into it. I may have been getting some previous gunk out, I'm not sure, but sure she's pretty good now. Thanks.

[hoosierlogger]

I have had good luck cleaning the bbl on my .54 flinter with windshield washer fluid. It has soap alcohol and water in one convenient jug. pour about half of it in the truck before you stick the barrel in it and use a jag and a patch to pump the fluid through the bbl. when you are done put the cap on the jug until next time. Some barrels will fit in the hole on the jug. You will never get a barrel completely clean unless you have too much time on your hands.