What Went Wrong??

[inthebeech]

I am certainly responsible for my own actions but after following the advice on this forum, and dropping more than the price of the gun itself on tooling and supplies related to casting boolits, I still have leading in the forcing cone and about a quarter inch beyond, of my new Flattop Blackhawk 44 Special. In a much shortened version, here's what happened and where I am;

1. Bought a 44 Special Blackhawk and signed on to this forum, committed to shooting cast boolits and finding a lead-free target load.
2. Slugged the bore (measures .4294- and yes I am sure - twenty years a mechanical engineer and tool maker). Similarly pin-gauged the throats at .433.
3. Experimented with cast bullets of a variety of hardnesses (and weights), from commercial casters who were able to provide diameters up to and including .432, all with a standardized "time proven" medium load of 7 gr Unique. Everything leaded after ten rounds.
4. Decided to take the plunge into casting based on much advice. Bought a bottom pour pot, bought a custom mold to cast larger diameter (to match the throats), and cast up my first batch out of a medium hard 10:1 alloy.
6. Loaded a culled out sampling of .433-.434 diameter, tumble lubed (Lee Alox which for many is an excellent lube) bullets (The design is a wadcutter specifically designed with tumble lube grooves). Because the diameter is larger than the throats, I had to seat the wadcutters just off the transition so that the rounds would chamber - light roll crimp. No case sizing was necessary since at this diameter there was enough neck tension to seat accurately for the crimp.
7. Just got back from the range and what did I find after the typical ten rounds?
You guessed it.

So now I realize that everything up to this point that was done, followed as precisely as possible the advice found on this site, but I honestly have no clue where to go from here so once again I am asking for input on what I might still be doing wrong.

Ed

[KCSO]

Rugers sometimes have very rough forcing cones. If yours has annular rings like a cut off tree you may need to ream and polish the forcing cone.

[wonderwolf]

I would try a smaller bullet from there just to see if it gets better or worse. Are you water quenching bullets? did you use the 7gr load with your lot of bullets? how much bearing surface is there? Try some unlubed bullets and see if that makes things worse (prolly will) you may need to go with a better lube? I like the tumble lubes for small 38's that for whatever reason don't size well in my sizer luber.

[462]

Inthebeech,
Hmmm...almost an indentical story to my introduction to casting.

Long story short: Switch to a starting load of 2400 (Lyman's manual).

Edit to add: Pull a seated boolit and measure it be sure it's not getting swaged down.

[stubert]

Softer boolits, better lube, mabey go to a gas check mold.

[Tazman1602]

throats = .433
Barrel = .4294

Get a sizing die of .431, go ahead and use your LLA lube, and what 462 said -- starting load of 2400 powder worked up from there and I'll be the issue goes away.

Throats bigger than barrel OK -- throats smaller than barrel NO ok as bullets will get swaged down before they get to the forcing cone.

methinks your bullets are a bit big mon'..............................let us know and don't get disgusted though. Chore boy bronze pads will rip the lead out by the roots in about three passes and you can go right on shooting.

Art

[fredj338]

I keep hearing all kinds of issues w/ TL style bullets & leading. Not a glutton for punishment, I haven't tried them myself, I stick w/ conventionl 1 or 2 groove designs & wax based lubes. Leading w/ proper fitting bullet is minimal using Unique or 2400 in several caliber rev. You will need a bullet that matches throat size, but it could be an issue w/ the throats being too large. I have seen & heard of this in S&W M25 in 45colt having extra large throats & leading. At this point, try varying your alloy hardness, go 50/50 lead/ww & try the same water dropped, then try ww alloy. All sized to the same dia & tumble lubed if you have to. THen, you could just have a rough forcing cone or the dreaded Ruger bbl pinch that seems to occur where the bbl screws into the frame.

[243winxb]

There is no accuracy with real leading. How were your groups? Size to the standard of .430" in a Lyman 450 lube sizer. 50/50 bees wax/alox Lube. BHN 15 alloy, air cooled. Size your brass and expand with a .428" button. [IMG][/IMG]

[Blammer]

take 2 of your loaded rounds, pull the boolits and measure them.

[243winxb]

If your using this bullet TL430-240-SWC , 7gr of Unique in 44 special is a fairly warm load. BHN 15 alloy should work best, sized correctly. From Lee's FAQ list

Liquid Alox application

Best results in applying liquid alox are when the alox is heated before applying, or thinned with paint thinner. This makes it flow more easily, and results in a more even coat. One technique is to boil water and pour it into a coffee mug, and then drop the bottle of liquid alox into the mug for about five minutes.

Place your freshly cast bullets into something about the size of a Cool Whip bowl and drop a few drops of liquid Alox on the bullets. Mix the bullets around until they are all coated. Lay the freshly coated bullets on some wax paper to dry. Liquid alox will usually dry enough overnight to reload the next day, depending upon the humidity. Tacky bullets can be dusted with powdered graphite.

If you subscribe to the "more is better" line of thought, your coated bullets may never dry. Don't go for a "golden" color but rather just a light varnish. If you discover that your bullets are sticky the next day, you can get by with using a little less the next time. Keep reducing until the "stickiness" is gone by the next day.

If you are sizing your cast bullets, it is necessary to lube them first. Because the sizer will remove some of the surface of a larger diameter bullet, you may need to re-lubricate the bullets after they have been sized.

Many of our bullets are of the "TL" or Tumble Lube design. These bullets have many shallow grooves that are perfect for allowing Liquid Alox to adhere to a great amount of surface. It has been reported that the accuracy of these bullets is high.

[snuffy]

Decided to take the plunge into casting based on much advice. Bought a bottom pour pot, bought a custom mold to cast larger diameter (to match the throats), and cast up my first batch out of a medium hard 10:1 alloy.

10-1 what? 10 parts pure lead to 1 part tin? That's not very hard, and water dropping won't harden it. I doubt you're over 10 BHN. If that's the case, you need a much harder alloy. Add 5% antimony to your present alloy, you'll be up around 15 for BHN.

[lwknight]

I have a feeling that the forcing cone may be a little rough and also the boolits are a little too big. I think that the leading band of the boolit mat be smearing in the forcing cone , then spreading on doen the bore. Also the cone could actually be wiping the lube off the leading band.

[Bass Ackward]

1. Your bullets too soft.
2. For a diameter that is too big.
3. The lube is too poor in that small quantity to compensate.
4. Making the powder charge WAY TOO high.
5. For a gun that's not broken in.


From that you aught to be able to plan a course of action to use that wise investment that you made.

Have you ever heard of a brush? Just like brushing after every meal, you need to brush after every cylinder full until you or the gun figure it out.

[noylj]

Leading at the forcing cone and the start of the barrel means that the forcing cone is rough or there is a tight section where the barrel enters the frame or the bullet is too hard (or the charge is too light for the bullet hardness) or the bullet is too small.
Sorry, those are the rules of the game that I have found. Too many people think that only hard bullets will work.
It would be nice if the barrel was .429 and the throats were .431, but your dimensions say that you should be able to get lead bullets to work quite well. Of course, there are always those guns that are just temperamental and need just the right load to work well.
Your bullets are just fine as far as size.
The things to find out are:
1) how did the commercial bullets work? Did they lead?
2) pull a couple of loaded rounds and determine what the bullet diameter is. Seating dies are not made to swage bullets, so if the bullet is getting swaged down, it is doing so unevenly and accuracy will be poor.
3) Inspect your forcing cone

[NSP64]

Iinthebeech, dont feel bad I wrestled with my SBH all summer before I got it to stop leading. If you haven't yet, go to Wheelguns, Pistols and Handcannons subsection and at the top of the page is a sticky"a beginner's guide to revolver accuracy" read this.
You need to slug the barrel, then drive a slug into the crown and pull it back out. This will tell you if there is a constricture at the barrel/frame juncture. Mine had it. Use pure lead to slug. I lubed some pure lead with a fine grinding compound and fired them over 3gr of unique to polish this "tightness" out. I also had to enlarge my cylinder throats ( all tight and different sizes)

[Charlie Two Tracks]

There is quite a bit of stuff that can go wrong. I had terrible leading with my SP-101 on cast boolits. Ended up that the timing was off and the BC gap was from ten thousandths to eleven thousandths. I sent it back to Ruger and they replaced the barrel, crane and cylinder. (that didn't leave a whole lot). I get it back and it still leads. I ream the forcing cone.... still leads. My cast .358 TL WC boolits were not filling out correctly. The middle was narrow. I get that fixed and leading was less but still there. Ends up I needed to use an M die instead of my Lee die. As a matter of fact, the seating and crimping die were sizing down my boolit to a dimension that was too small and would lead. These guys helped me through this mess and all is well for the time being. As others have said, pull a boolit and see if it is getting sized down. You'll get it. Sometimes, it just takes time.

[NSP64]

inthebeech stated he wasn't sizing the cases as the fat boolits had some tension on them without sizing the cases.

[shotman]

all replies could be right BUT the gun is your problem RUGER for most part is trash try the bore lap compound or get a good gun I have given up on ruger they are putting out trash now. had 2 454s and that was last for me both went back 2 times and got a good gun

[JIMinPHX]

My first recommendation would be to clean the gun as best you can with your normal cleaning routine, then scrub the daylights out of the barrel, forcing cone & throats with lead-away cloth until you see a bright & shiny finish. Then apply some Kroil to the bore & chambers & let it soak in. Then put some plain old oil on a patch & run it through the bore & chambers. Then dry patch everything. Then try shooting it again.

If that doesn't work, then please answer these questions:

Where did you get your alloy from?

Are the boolits soft enough to dent them with your thumbnail?

Where in the barrel did you find the leading? The whole barrel? In front of the forcing cone? Near the muzzle?

How much lube did you use?

How thick/thin was the lube when you applied it?

How long did you let it dry?

How hard was the lube when you loaded the boolits?

Did you flair the case necks before seating the boolits?

Did you use gas checks?

Were you able to recover any boolits that you fired? If so, did they show signs of gas blow by?

As many others have said, Ruger sometimes leaves a poor finish on the throats of those guns. Since you are a long time tool maker, I'll assume that you would have recognized something like that & told us about it if that issue was present.

[btroj]

This is the tie to experiment. That is how most of the people here learned. You revolver will let you know what it does, or doesn't, like. My SRH leaded like a madman til I got a mould that cast big enough to size to .432. No more leading.
Don't give up trying different things. But keep it to one variable at a time. Test hardness or lube or size but not all at once. You WILL find something that works. That is where the satisfaction comes in.
To look at variable look at what Jim said. That is a good starting point. But short of giving one of us the revolver it is something you will ultimately have to discover on your own. But like I said, this is where the real satisfaction comes from.