Vintage 22 Rifles / iron sights / 50 yds / 'Good Groups' ?

EXPLANATION... This is going to be another 'RABBIT HOLE' type thread...sorta like my other two threads about the Sav. MKII & the CZ452.

The difference being that we are not talking about precision rifles, rather, any vintage .22 rifle that is your favorite to shoot. That rifle that came from your GramPa or Dad or if you are an Old'Fart like myself, maybe it's your first rifle?
Could be that you just love it but haven't been shooting it because you don't think it's accurate enough and it rarely gets out of the safe any more...?

One thing I'd like to know... "What is good accuracy for; a vintage rifle + common inexpensive ammunition + iron sights + whatever handicap you have to overcome?"

I have spent more than a year now shooting precision rifles (from an entry level MKII up to a custom built CZ452) here on my home range trying to learn the art of precision.
At this point the new has worn off and I find myself turning more and more to an old favorite .22 that taught my 50 year old kids to shoot. It is one of those rifles that just 'feels right' whether your carrying it or have it shouldered.

What I would like to discover is the 'Tip's-n-Tricks' of getting good accuracy from this old rifle. I think we may discover another 'RABBIT HOLE' of information that we can all benefit from.
So...this thread is dedicated to the shooters of these old rifles . . . "What are you doing with yours to get more accuracy & enjoyment out of it?"

I have several vintage .22lr rifles but I want to start off talking about my Winchester mod. 67A & shooting for groups at 50 yards on paper.

https://i.imgur.com/PBKAS0V.jpg

Here I am tapping the dovetail sights back and forth at 25 yds. to get ready to move to the 50 yd. bench. Getting that windage alligned and discovering what difference this little slide adjustment makes at 25 & 50 yds. It is going to be part of my 'Scheme to shoot better groups'.

https://i.imgur.com/T7wpEam.jpg

I know..."eyesight is primarily going to determine our group sizes." BUT...in my 'Scheme to shoot better groups' there are no limitations to the targets we shoot. Any size, any color or combination of colors, any shape you want. The idea is to shoot at whatever size and shape that allows you to get the best POA (with your eyesight and the type of iron sight on your rifle) and resulting POI that yields the smallest consistent groups. If you have a 'trick' then use it and share it too.
I have experimented with making my own targets with these 'stickers and printed targets' trying to get that 'sight picture' that will work...

https://i.imgur.com/CBh6PQX.jpg

A year ago, this was what I was working with, it was easy to see using the traditional 'punkin on a post sight alignment' against the fluorescent green color...

https://i.imgur.com/WLNgcvC.jpg

...it was a little easier to bring that silhouette of the front bead up under that black half moon shape.

The other day I decided to change the traditional sight picture (front bead or post @ the same height as the rear 'U or V notch' and centered) ...change it to nesting the front bead in the bottom of my 'U' notch rear sight and then placing the spot on the bead...sorta like this below...

https://i.imgur.com/51Mj4KQ.jpg

I know..."not a very good drawing'' but you get the idea here. I have removed part of the sight picture I previously used keeping the top of the front bead level with the top of the rear sight. For now, this is easier just stacking the bead and the spot together like this, it's also easier to keep the stack centered.
I don't know about you guys but I can't keep my focus on the front bead alone, I am constantly keeping track of that dang spot too. If you can't break a bad habit like this then 'do something to improve it'. That's what I'm doing till I learn something new! :bigsmyl2:

In reality back at the 50 yd. bench, even this alignment is difficult. 'Theory' goes out the window and 'what works' remains...(I can't get the actual picture I want to show you, this is all canted after I crop the picture I took with the iPhone) but it does demonstrate 'almost', droping the front bead to the bottom of the 'U notch'.

https://i.imgur.com/yqisy6i.jpg

I tried this idea just the other day and got these...(also notice that my favorite target now has a white spot in the center, things change as you experiment in the Rabbit Hole!)

https://i.imgur.com/H0e7PYr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UzSP2EO.jpg?1

So...as far as "What is a good group"...I don't know until I see some of your groups with the 'Iron sights' but...until we determine what that really is, I am setting my goal to shoot 1" groups. That seems doable to me and I think I just might be delighted with a group that size, if I can repeat it over and over.
The bottom right target from both above pictures gives me an idea that 1" is realistic.

Well...if this thread catches on like my other two have, I think there's about a 'thousand million' different things we all can share with each other to improve our shooting with our most favorite vintage .22lr rifles...what I have opened up with here is but scratching the surface.
Remember...this thread is about us shooting vintage rifles, not the expensive precision rifles...I want to talk about and compare 'apples to apples' although almost everything we will discover here applies to all the rifles.

charlie

Good shootin, sir!

I have a soft spot in my heart for the Winchester Model 67A. It was the first real gun I ever shot, my Dad's. I have the rifle now, but as I have written before; all things considered, I'd rather have my Dad here.

I've never shot it for groups at fifty yards, and very rarely at 25. I'll have to try, I'm planning range trip next week for my birthday.

One thing I think may help grouping on paper is to make sure the sights are well blackened. I don't have one of the fancy carbide sight blackeners, but a bit of soot from a butane lighter or even better some burning masking tape should suffice.

Now to dig out some .22 LR, I think I'm about out of Shorts.

Robert

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mk42gunner

I think I'm about out of Shorts.

Robert

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Perhaps you need to do some laundry!
Oh, sorry, you were talking about ammunition.
22shorts are hard to find around here as well as any other version of 22 ammunition.

I've always used a sight picture of the bead being even with the top of the sight's notch and centered on the target.

Old .22s are just about the very best rifles. My first, still have it in pristine condition, was a Stevens 15-A, single shot. I took much small game with it, and since I was a Po' Boy and couldn't afford lots of ammo, every shot tried to count. Truthfully, I haven't shot it for years now. Can't show you any groups, 'cause back then I didn't shoot for groups, just squirrels, serpents, etc. Photo:
Attachment 288550
Click to enlarge.

Back when I was an aspiring gunsmith, but before I knew it, I purchased several Mossberg MB-42 rifles at Montgomery Ward. They were surplus and all marked "Property US Govt." They had full length stocks. I sporterized the stocks (yes, I guess I was a Bubba), refinished them as needed, and sold them to fellow employees at a place where I worked. I kept one with the full length stock, and maybe 20 years after the fact I tried it out. Note that the wind was blowing a bit, and the ammo was not match quality. I was pleased... Wish I could show a picture of the rifle, but it's in storage and I just don't have enough room to keep them all out and handy. Photo:
Attachment 288547

For a few years I taught Hunter Ed, and used my FFL to purchase 4 Russian Toz-17 rifles for use by the students. After that phase had passed I decided that I'd test fire all four and keep the most accurate, sell the remaining 3. That didn't work out too well, as I still have all 4. I test fired 2 of them and both were very accurate, but one had the edge. I kept it, was amazed at how accurate it was (is) and thought it might be even better with a scope. It's likely the most accurate rifle I own of any caliber.
Photo:
Attachment 288548

Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but I'd say it's hard to find a .22 rifle in good condition that won't shoot well. Some shoot very well. Old friends are the best....!

DG

I have been enjoying 22's more recently than usual. I would love to shoot iron sights more now since I can't see them any more.
Take care,
Rick

I got a pretty darn nice 67A a year or two back for a hundred bucks out the door, was really pleased with the deal.

Anyway, it shoots well, groups as well as I think I can shoot at 25 yards, but even with the rear sight all the way up, still hits just a tad low. I was wondering if it was regulated for standard velocity ammunition? I was shooting regular Aguilar stuff if I recall right.

For a long time I shot this one with a buggered up front sight, no matter where I set the rear elevation adjustment it just didn't make much difference.
I took a piece of round stock and epoxied it to the buggered front post and that was better until I found a replacement sight with a gold bead and ordered it.

https://i.imgur.com/Lix9qfj.jpg

I cut the mid section from a 30-06 case and made a hood to shade that gold bead, that bead shines intensly like a tiny light.

https://i.imgur.com/6tX3vWp.jpg

Obviously the solution was to blacken the gold bead, I guess gold beads are meant for shotguns?

https://i.imgur.com/rTVo05y.jpg

Ultimately I'd like to find one of these original dovetail peep sights to replace the rear sight I have now. I've looked high and low but unless you find one on a used rifle these things are scarce as 'hen's teeth'.
I'm not sure changing them would work since my sight is dovetailed in farther up the barrel, might make that orifice too small to use?

https://i.imgur.com/r30tsOd.jpg

I like your work on that front sight and your sight hood is pretty snazzy.

I'll get a taller front sight for it eventually, I like a brass bead front sight like that too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tazman

Perhaps you need to do some laundry!
Oh, sorry, you were talking about ammunition.
22shorts are hard to find around here as well as any other version of 22 ammunition.

---

Laundry situation is well in hand. Load in the dryer as we type.

I did think I should have reworded my post as soon as I hit the submit button...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager

I've always used a sight picture of the bead being even with the top of the sight's notch and centered on the target.

Old .22s are just about the very best rifles. My first, still have it in pristine condition, was a Stevens 15-A, single shot. I took much small game with it, and since I was a Po' Boy and couldn't afford lots of ammo, every shot tried to count. Truthfully, I haven't shot it for years now. Can't show you any groups, 'cause back then I didn't shoot for groups, just squirrels, serpents, etc. Photo:
Attachment 288550
Click to enlarge.

Back when I was an aspiring gunsmith, but before I knew it, I purchased several Mossberg MB-42 rifles at Montgomery Ward. They were surplus and all marked "Property US Govt." They had full length stocks. I sporterized the stocks (yes, I guess I was a Bubba), refinished them as needed, and sold them to fellow employees at a place where I worked. I kept one with the full length stock, and maybe 20 years after the fact I tried it out. Note that the wind was blowing a bit, and the ammo was not match quality. I was pleased... Wish I could show a picture of the rifle, but it's in storage and I just don't have enough room to keep them all out and handy. Photo:
Attachment 288547

For a few years I taught Hunter Ed, and used my FFL to purchase 4 Russian Toz-17 rifles for use by the students. After that phase had passed I decided that I'd test fire all four and keep the most accurate, sell the remaining 3. That didn't work out too well, as I still have all 4. I test fired 2 of them and both were very accurate, but one had the edge. I kept it, was amazed at how accurate it was (is) and thought it might be even better with a scope. It's likely the most accurate rifle I own of any caliber.
Photo:
Attachment 288548

Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but I'd say it's hard to find a .22 rifle in good condition that won't shoot well. Some shoot very well. Old friends are the best....!

DG

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MY rifle is a Savage-Springfield Model 120A, the same as your Stevens Model 15-A. If I had a nickel for every shell I shot through that rifle... I'd have a few truckloads of nickels.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by richhodg66

I got a pretty darn nice 67A a year or two back for a hundred bucks out the door, was really pleased with the deal.

Anyway, it shoots well, groups as well as I think I can shoot at 25 yards, but even with the rear sight all the way up, still hits just a tad low. I was wondering if it was regulated for standard velocity ammunition? I was shooting regular Aguilar stuff if I recall right.

---

All of the Model 67 family I have seen or shot, shot pretty close to POA/POI at realistic small game ranges with the rear sight in the lowest notch, or even with the elevator removed. Maybe your long barrel is bent? Doesn't take much, and most of these guns lived a hard life.

Robert

I doubt it's bent, this one has been very well kept. I do kind of wonder if someone might have replaced the front sight at some point. Seems awfully low.

I have a 72A and 69A which both hit to POA with the sights pretty easily.

I also have a TOZ17 rifle purchased new 1971 and have fired 100s of thousands of rounds. There is no blueing left and the stock is well worn. It remains the most accurate 22 sporter I have ever owned and I will never part with it.The stock still has that unusual smokey smell peculiar to the TOZ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mk42gunner

. . . and most of these guns lived a hard life.

Robert

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Isn't that the gospel! I don't know where my rifle spent it's first years or how it was treated, it was pretty rough when I got it.

It hasn't been very long since I bought a bore-scope to examine the MKII & CZ452. Until then, the only idea I had about any of my bores was to clean them and put a light in the receiver and take a look down from the muzzle.
I don't know now what I ever thought about doing that...all you ever see is either a clean shiny bore or some debris left behind from cleaning. But...I used to see that shiny bore and think "all is well with the world!" (this photo is looking into the MKII, it had it's share of ugly tooling in the rifling also)

https://i.imgur.com/Z107UCf.jpg

If I had known the condition of this bore...really known it as I do now...I doubt I would have ever shot it again. Especially, since I was down the Rabbit Hole in search of accuracy with these old beauties.
About a week ago I stuck the scope in this barrel expecting to see a barrel in very good shape since it had been shooting so well before.

This is what I found..."Brace yourself...it ain't very pretty!"

https://i.imgur.com/iSSPxO7.jpg

Damage in two places at the muzzle crown...this is just one.
Also there is not one single photograph I took that didn't have barrel pitting from the muzzle to the chamber...

https://i.imgur.com/AaoOZFd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/8KATNZ3.jpg

Even in the leade...

https://i.imgur.com/3spcYr2.jpg

and chamber...

https://i.imgur.com/gJfAe0L.jpg

This old favorite has been rode hard and put up wet too many times...I am astonished that it shoots as well as it does.
It's funny how some of us think that unless that bore is pristine, a rifle doesn't have a chance to shoot. At least I used to think that until I got the bore-scope...now I'm not sure what to think!

What I did to get myself cured of "Precision Rifle Syndrome" and increase my enjoyment, with regards to .22's:

Clean it.

Make sure it's assembled properly.

Install whatever upgrades - such as Lyman 57 and 17A sight combos - I deem appropriate to the rig

Bench it and group it to get it zeroed - usually at 50 yards.

Rarely - if ever - shoot it for group ever again.

After the inital zeroing - especially with .22 plinkers and generic ammo that I have no control over - I figure I've proven what the RIFLE is capable of, and have little desire to keep proving it. Usually in that process of zeroing, unless the rifle is VERY sick, it shoots far better off the bench than I can off hand.

Therefore I go through A LOT of .22 seeing what I am capable of, shooting water bottles, cans, empty shotgun shells, or bits of clay pigeon, at varying distances without the benefit of any more support than my elbows from field positions. MUCH more entertaining, and overall, probably more useful, than chasing the paper dragon. The only way to get a rabbit to hold still to be shot in the same eye five times is to hit him in the eye the first time - after which their should be no need for the next four.:mrgreen:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bigslug

What I did to get myself cured of "Precision Rifle Syndrome" and increase my enjoyment, with regards to .22's:

Clean it.

Make sure it's assembled properly.

Install whatever upgrades - such as Lyman 57 and 17A sight combos - I deem appropriate to the rig

Bench it and group it to get it zeroed - usually at 50 yards.

Rarely - if ever - shoot it for group ever again.

After the inital zeroing - especially with .22 plinkers and generic ammo that I have no control over - I figure I've proven what the RIFLE is capable of, and have little desire to keep proving it. Usually in that process of zeroing, unless the rifle is VERY sick, it shoots far better off the bench than I can off hand.

Therefore I go through A LOT of .22 seeing what I am capable of, shooting water bottles, cans, empty shotgun shells, or bits of clay pigeon, at varying distances without the benefit of any more support than my elbows from field positions. MUCH more entertaining, and overall, probably more useful, than chasing the paper dragon. The only way to get a rabbit to hold still to be shot in the same eye five times is to hit him in the eye the first time - after which their should be no need for the next four.:mrgreen:

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I think that's an excellent way to enjoy your shooting. Offhand is the real test of your skill. I've had opportunity in the past, when I lived in SoCal to shoot in the nearby desert where infinite ranges are possible and you could shoot anything you wanted. I do enjoy camping in the desert and shooting the whole time, especially so when the kids were young.
Today it's a different story. Where I live here on this mountain ridge, I have neighbors all around on 5 to 30 acre parcels...I have to keep them in mind so I built a backstop and a lead catcher so I could shoot here at home.

https://i.imgur.com/rcBWBH9.jpg?1

That's my older brother helping install it into the rail tie backstop.
This is my limiting factor, this having neighbors all around...but still I try to mix it up some from time to time when I'm board with the "Precision Rifle Syndrome" as you call it.
I try challenges from time to time and sometimes invent a challenge just for grins & giggles.

In the past, I've put 10 nails up and tried to shoot as many as I can with 10 shots...

https://i.imgur.com/B2Hh2Ki.jpg

I've tried the same thing with some brass shim stock I used in place of playing cards...try to split them...

https://i.imgur.com/r8GMmvX.jpg

I tried setting pennies in the backboard on edge...

https://i.imgur.com/Si5P3pQ.jpg

tried to hit them all with the least amount of shots...

https://i.imgur.com/aNLbmzD.jpg

Then a friend thought up a game challenge...trying to shoot through a life saver without hitting & breaking it...I super glued 10 life savers to a card and gave that a try...

https://i.imgur.com/BQFQ25z.jpg

That took some time, the hole in a life saver is .285"...I finally got through on the 51'st & 57'th shots...that took some time to do but it was a fun challenge I thought I might never get done.

https://i.imgur.com/GLSkpcH.jpg

Over at Dayattherange.com Eli has a number of challenges, all fun and challenging...even for us old bench rest shooters...

https://i.imgur.com/B3TMkTC.jpg

So...even though I am limited in what I can do here, I still have some fun too.
One thing that is a constant challenge is the wind and how you handle that...something that affects all shooters with or without that "Precision Rifle Syndrome", there's lots of possibilities, I think the 'bottom line' with all this is to have fun and try to learn something every day.

Maybe it's just my age catching up with me, but there seems to be more good shooting old rifles(25 years or older) than there are good shooting new rifles(last 15 years).

When a company builds a rifle to a price point, it is hard to get the quality that seems so common in the old rifles.
Those old rifles were never built with a "use it and throw it away" attitude. Even the "cheap" ones were made to last and do their job well. Unless they have been mistreated, they still do.

You would think modern machinery and technology would allow perfect barrels to be made easily and inexpensively. That doesn't seem to be the case.

As an accumulator of vintage 22's this going to be a fun thread to follow and try to emulate. The iron sight issue has confined me to 25 yard plinking, though the recent purchase of a Lyman Sight Pal will change that.

There's one month left in our outdoor shooting season and several rifles that need to be fired.

Ken

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pressman

As an accumulator of vintage 22's this going to be a fun thread to follow and try to emulate. The iron sight issue has confined me to 25 yard plinking, though the recent purchase of a Lyman Sight Pal will change that.

There's one month left in our outdoor shooting season and several rifles that need to be fired.

Ken

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joe leadslinger... told me about those Sight Pals last week. I thought about it some and tried to make a facsimile I could try out.
I used a heat gun to bend the lid of a box of Eley so it would hang over my lens in my glasses.

https://i.imgur.com/YZRFLmh.jpg

I figured where the hole needed to be and drilled that...

https://i.imgur.com/HfJS3A6.jpg

and not only did I look silly trying to use it but it slid off every time I bent down to get on the comb... :bigsmyl2:

https://i.imgur.com/yZcs1Vp.jpg

My favorite vintage 22 is a Savage 1919 NRA match rifle. It is capable of about 1/2" 50 yd groups with Peters bulk ammo but with iron sights I am not. I have scopes on everything I have that needs more than hunting accuracy. With a good set of target iron sights I might keep the groups a bit under 2". I like the idea of a postal shoot but iron sights put me on the side lines.

Part of my answer to the OP's question and aging eyeballs was to buy a CZ 452 Ultra Lux - - the current equivalent being the 457 Jaguar. While it isn't technically old, it IS old-school. The open sights are big, square, black, highly adjustable, and the front one is at the end of 28.5" inches of barrel where it should at least somewhat be getting into the field of your distance-corrected vision. While I have short and long barrel .22's that use the classic U-notch / bead sight combo, and I will continue to shoot them, it's that CZ that lets me largely forget the physical limitations and pretend I'm 10 with my (open) iron sights again.

If your gun is tapped for a receiver peep, that, plus the addition of a Lyman 17A front (hooded ring) and a Merit iris-adjustable aperture in the rear can make a WORLD of difference. I did this to my Winchester 69A, choosing a post insert for the front sight (instead of a bullseye-appropriate ring) for better field shooting. That gives you the same extremely intuitive "align-two-rings/bullet-hits-the-post" sight picture as the HK combat rifles combined with the long sight radius provided by the 25" barrel that seemed to be the common thing in the industry back then.

Shooting the old OEM sights for group in crappy light is usually a loosing proposition, so choosing your day helps. Smoking your front sight may also be a useful endeavor, since for a lot of us it's blurry and gold or silver beads only add to the halo and take away our contrast.