Printable View
Start with the starting load, and work up slowly. Just like you would with any other powder. There is no magic in this game, but a lot of painstaking work. The LAST THING you want to do is take somebody else's load that may work in their rifle and blindly try it in yours. Every gun is different, work your loads up slowly. Then if prssures start to rise you can stop, and not ruin a fine old rifle, and maybe yourself. BrodieQuote:
Originally Posted by Wardo1974
A call to Hodgdon and I was told that they are the same and interchangeable. That was about six months ago and I needed to know since I have two pounds of each on hand and I load a lot for the 45-70. Trying some of each, I see no difference in groups or POI. If in doubt, call the manufacturer/owner.
That probably wasn't true in 2013 when this post was started. Since then the two have become much more similar if not identical. Going to depend a lot on the vintage of the powder on hand. I think IMR 4198 has changed a bit in recent years. This is such an old post I suspect the original poster figured his question out and the answers from when the post started aren't valid today.Quote:
Originally Posted by NSB
Originally IMR4198 was faster that H4198. Hodgdon's is now the source of both '4198' powders. They are using the name IMR4198 even though all modern manufacture powder is actually make to the formulation of the older H4198. That is so that anyone using old IMR4198 data will not get unanticipatedly higher pressures.
For my model 7 in 223 which is a bolt. IMR 4198 is its preference.
Although in close proximity? (on burn charts)_ The difference between is minimal. So if not having one powder the other can be substituted without worry.
I'd trust Hodgdon on this one. They said they're the same, so I'm going with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by OverMax
Funny...
Original topic & posts from back in Oct., 2013, sits for a year.... is commented on by someone in Oct 2014 like it was just yesterday from the 2013 posts, then it is now posted in 2019, just like it was yesterday & it generates more 2019 comments & the topic is still in the Smokeless Paper Patch subforum, rather than in CB Loads subforum.
And in all those 6 years, no one has taken the time to call or email Hodgdon to find the answer from the folks who supply the powders & publish the data....
So, folks just dicker back & forth about it.
Go figure....
For those who REALLY want to know the answers to the OP question(s), and get the most up to date info on the 2 powders, here is the contact webpage for Hodgdon & not only do they allow you to contact them by email on that page itself,
https://www.hodgdon.com/company/contact-us/
the webpage also lists the following info so you can visit them in person, write them a letter, call them, or even send them a fax...:
Address:
6430 Vista Drive
Shawnee, KS 66218
Phone:
(913) 362-9455
Fax:
(913) 362-1307
After 6 or so years & no one has actually gone to find out the real answer, I hope that those who REALLY want to know , take the time to try going to the PRODUCT SOURCE, when there is a question about a product(s), and then.... Post up your questions & what ya found out for all of us here to know. Instead of having folks just make guesses about the differences between the two powders, IF there is much of any.
BTW, the member who originally posted the topic, Wardo1974 has not been on CB forum using that membername since June 3, 2018. I would venture to guess that he/she has figured out by now the answers to his/her question(s).
At least I hope so...
;)
Posted here just to try to be a bit helpful , as well as yank the chain/ :kidding: a bit to those who missed the OP original post date & still make comments to it.
Yep... Funny.
;)
ETA: P.S. - I have also done it myself, which makes it just as funny when others do it too.
LOL
;)
Check their published manuals and published data sheets.
The phone people are not necessarily authoritative. I have gotten some wrong info from those guys.
And because of the liability involved - powder manufacturers don't just change the formulation of cannister grade powder to one that is significantly different - they would probably discontinue it.
Trust the info in current reloading manuals.
There are burn rate charts available online that lists most all manufactures and available powders from fastest to slowest. H4198 is just a hair faster burning than the IMR equivalent, but probably not enough to be noticeable. I would be concerned with increased pressures because powders with similar burn rates can have big differences in pressures. New gun probably wouldn't matter, but older one definitely.
This is an old thread but I'm sure it gets visited a lot. I have 8lbs of H4198 for my jacket load data, now that I'm going cast my Lyman book calls for IMR4198. To purchase that powder at this time would cost me over $200 shipped so there's reason to try and swap even if it's one way.
Hodgdon has this data on their site for 762x39 150gr jacketed bullet
IMR IMR 4198 .311" 2.220" 21.2 1,917 42,200 CUP 22.5 2,070 43,600 CUP
Hodgdon H4198 .312" 2.220" 22.5 1,947 33,600 CUP 24.5 2,122 39,800 CUP
Assuming they are similar, and not the same, it looks like it's safe to use IMR data with H powder, but going the other way could be a small risk.
I would suggest that usage wise they would pretty much be interchangeable, keeping to the load data of course. H4198 is an extreme powder and for that reason I would choose it. In fact I have - I recently bought some. Well, it's also more readily available to me. Interesting that the H version produces higher velocity for lower pressure. For cast, I would choose the lower pressure option. I bought mine for use with cast.
Let's get something straight here . The powder co's can't start changing the burn rate on powders and still call it what it was certified for . They are highly controlled to only allow a 4% variation from the original batch that was certified . If they change it , then they have to change the name , get it certified etc . I had a discussion with an official @ Alliant about this very subject several yrs ago and those are the facts he told me . I figure that's straight from the horses mouth . Regards Paul
Yeah, I use the same charge weight with both powders in my 45-70 and AK. Same exact POI. I was noticing a difference in POI with lighter loads in the 45-70, but I wasn't doing too much testing.
And then factor in the Tubal line of French powders, in this case Tubal 2000, which is very, very close to the original 4198 Hodgdon imported; if not identical save for lot numbers. Happiness, in my case, is walking out to my reloading room and gazing upon a nearly full 20Kg keg. Good stuff for almost everything I shoot from 30-40 Krag to my .45-100 (2.6") Sharps M1874 rifles.
Rich
I called Hodgdon this morning and they are NOT the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by NSB
This is totally wrong. I called Hodgdon this morning and h4198 and IMR4198 are 2 different powders. They are not interchangeable.Quote:
Originally Posted by BAGTIC
You should have asked them if they will bring back H4198 to the market within the next decade.Quote:
Originally Posted by bronko22000
We got plenty of H4198 over here!
Adi 2207
Will willingly swap you for some fast or medium pistol powders.
Well, now I am confused!! I found this thread looking for loading data for my 8mm Mauser. I am getting back into reloading after a long absence. I used to load for .221 Rem Fireball and .22-250. My powder, IMR 3031, is old , from the early 70's, and I hesitate using it. I found loading data showing IMR 4198 for all 3 calibers, so I bought a pound to get started. Now, finding this thread that the new IMR4198 may be different than the old. My Handloaders Digest is copyright MCMLXX - 1970.
Following the recommendation of a couple of posters in this thread, I went to the Hodgdon site (https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-conte...rt-WEBSITE.pdf) and found a chart of relative burn rates. with #1 being fastest and #176 the slowest, IMR4198 is #79, H4198 is #80. This seems to indicate these two powders are very close in burn rate.
The loading data I have is for maximum loads. If I back that off 10% maybe 15% and work up, you feel that is a safe path?
What are your thoughts on the 54 year old can of IMR 3031? I have recently killed a few groundhogs with cartridges that I loaded back then. The ground hogs did not seem to notice any difference.
Thanks
If your IMR3031 looks and smells normal then it’s fine. Powder is like chicken, when it goes bad you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by hemmjo
Your IMR4198 is not significantly different than the old IMR4198 in your manual (if it was much different they’d have legal issues). Use normal loading practice, starting at >=10%off the max load and it’ll be fine. BTW, newer manuals may have lower max charges, this is often because their ability to measure pressure is far more accurate today. Obviously, use current load data and current powder if you can.