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Hi all, some may know I've a Ruger M77 Hawkeye .338 WM on the way. I got a Leupold Freedom 2-7 to mount, and am beginning collecting components for initial loading, just to get used to the rifle at the range.
Just looking for a couple of thoughts for early shooting. Looking for powders, and (cheaper, range target) bullets to consider. In terms of powder, would IMR 4350 or 4831 be a good couple of options? I'll likely be using Hogdon's manual for load development.
Thanks.
I usually use WW 760 in my 338's as I keep a LOT of it around for my other calibers too. For most plinking and deer/hog size game I shoot Federal Fusion 200 grain bullets as they were the cheapest thing around.
Alright, thanks. Any thoughts on powder? I've come across some IMR 4064 and 4350.
I think you'll find W-760 IMR-4350/4831 H-4350/4831 RE-19 RE-22 generally good powders for 200-250gr. bullets. Magnum primers should be used. Speer 200gr. and 225gr. are both available and reasonably inexpensive at $19.00-$27.00 per 50 from Midway.
If you make a Midway order you may as well order a PAST recoil shield, I bought the ''Field'' model 1/4'' thick strap on pad for your shoulder, $25.00 it makes a difference.
Thanks for the shield tip and info. I have some IMR 4350 to pickup at my LGS, the Speer Hotcor 200's on their way. On the prowl for large magnum primers, and brass of course. From our discussions I know this is a long game, so glad to get things in when I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithaca Gunner
LRM primers might be the toughest thing to find. Post a WTB ad here for brass, someone may have some they're willing to part with, far as i know, nobody has new brass in stock. Sign up for waiting alerts. In order to make the best of what I have, I bought an RCBS Preciscion Mic which measures headspace of your fired cases allowing you to set your die to headspace on the shoulder. You can wing it by setting your die to neck size, then go down 1/8 turn, chamber it and feel for resistance closing the bolt, too much guess work for me though, I spent the money for the mic.
Thanks. Yep, on shootingbot, and posted a WTB here too. Thanks for the tips.
Outside of simple 30-30 and '06 reloading, really my only experience is with the 45-70 and .44 mag. I'm the kind of guy who likes to find a load that is dialed in, and then we're good. Cases like these are a new world and so considerations on bottlenecks and headspace are things I'll have to learn. Looking forward to it.
Bit hazy for me since I haven't loaded any bottlenecks in years (and yes, both were not belted - 30-30 and '06). Dumb question, but in the absence of buying factory ammo, in order to get a fired case to figure out setting the die for headspacing off the shoulder (I did get the precision mic, thanks) - do I just fire a case like I'm fire forming brass for reforming?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithaca Gunner
Yes, for this the mic only works with fired cases in YOUR rifle. If you have fired cases from another rifle, new brass, or factory ammo, you need to load and fire them in YOUR rifle. Using the headspace nut you simply put the fired case in the bottom, screw the top nut on and take the reading, (usually on 5 cases, they should be within .001'' of each other). Set your sizing die out for neck sizing only. Run 1 measured case through the die, take another reading in the mic. If the same reading, screw the die down 1/10=1/8 turn and try another reading until a .002'' shorter reading, try and measure a few more cases, (should be consistant ,002-.003'' shorter). Lock the die down, there should be a very slight ''bump'' feel when attaching a sized case to your bolt face and chambering it, (the Hawkeye is a true Mauser controlled feed action, you can slip a cartridge under the extractor and it'll stay, the extractor is beveled to over ride a cartridge in the chamber also, but slip it under the extractor and be gentle). The ''bump'' may be felt on the down stroke of the bolt handle, (it's the shoulder slightly contacting the chamber as the lugs engage). RCBS claims up to a 70% case life using this method, but they don't recommend it for your hunting ammo, (I've been using a mic for my .30/06 ammo for my heavy bolt action rifles for years and have yet to have a problem). There's an episode of ''the real gunsmith'' on you tube that describes doing this without the mic, you're pretty much neck sizing and just ''kissing'' the shoulder back about .002''. You're changing the headspacing from the belt to the shoulder like a .30/06.Quote:
Originally Posted by huntinlever
OK, thanks. So...dumb question. If I'm using new brass, how do I go about firing a round (to set the die per above), without knowing the proper seating depth? Do I just do a "blank" with the barrel vertical, as when fire forming re-formed brass?
New brass will meet specification and will chamber in any factory gun.
It is best to HS off the shoulder for case life, but you can use factory (unfired) brass w/o concern. No different than buying factory ammo and using.
If using once fired, size until it chambers w/ little/no resistance and use.
Do your measuring and die set up after firing the "new" brass.
Guys I'll ask mods to delete the other thread where I asked what I'd forgotten here: To get this initial firing and chamber fill, how hot a load do you do - i.e., if the range is 66.3 - 73.7 grains powder (here, Ramshot Hunter) (200 grain Speer Hot Cor), how hot a load do you suggest for this purpose?
I'll add, some guys say a mild load is adequate, some say they use a moderate load, some say they back off maximum by just a bit. Some say it takes two firings if not 3 to get adequate chamber fill to truly know the dimensions to set the die.
Maybe I should say what I've done so far. Again from the other thread, this is a new one for me - never fire formed new brass.
- Got new Winchester brass.
- Obviously unprimed. Nevertheless I don't deprime with the rifle die, I deprime with a dedicated Lee deprimer. I set the depriming pin however to approximately 3/16".
- I set the resizing/expander die so the shellholder cams over, with 1/8 overturn on the ram. Sized the new brass.
- No trim.
- Set the bullet seater depth so COAL is SAAMI as shown in the Lyman 51st, 3.340".
- Primed with Winchester LRM.
-so that's it so far. Correct?
A starting load should be fine for forming the brass. There is no good reason not to start your load work up with new brass, if that’s what you have. If it is once fired (not by you) see if an un-sized round chambers. If it does, resize the brass without changing the shoulder position and then load normally. If not, screw the sizing die in 1/2 turn or so and stop when the round does chamber. The first firing in your rifle will let you measure your chamber with the precision mic. Set your die up with that measurement for future sizing.
Perfect. Many thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by garandsrus
Well, fired 5 rounds today. Have to say, it was a true pleasure. Even without some sort of decelerator pad, and no field pad, recoil wasn't bothersome at all. In fact, I find it more pleasurable than my 45-70 guide gun, and that's with moderate loading in the GG.
However, my findings after measuring the fired cases is puzzling me. I note SAAMI for the case length is 2.500. For the fired brass I had two outliers - one got dented after firing, and the other has a really untrue mouth (one side even visually higher than the other), so I tossed those out of the sample. The 3 sampled cases measured 2.4895", 2.4885", and 2.492".
These are all shorter than SAAMI spec. Shouldn't they be longer, if anything, from firing? These are WW cases, so not sure if they run a little smaller. Also admit freely I might be missing something foundational here.
Secondly, the range of fired lengths seems large to me. If we're talking adjusting the die by say 0.002 - 0.003, isn't a range of fired brass of 0.001 pretty significant?
Thanks for any corrections or thoughts.
It is not uncommon for fired rounds to shorten when fired. The overall case length of a fired case doesn’t matter much. You need to resize the case and then see what the oal is. Resizing will probably lengthen the case some. After resizing, trim as needed, which will straighten out the untrue case mouth.
The case micrometer measures from the base of the case to a point on the shoulder so the OAL doesn’t matter. These measurements should be pretty consistent and the uneven case mouth won’t affect it either. .001 difference is normal. Use your sizing die to bump the shoulder back by .002 or .003 from whatever the fired measurement is.
Great, really helpful. Many thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by garandsrus
So, I got the following five readings: 0.002, 0.002, 0.002, 0.002 (it would actually visually be "0.0015," but I know that exceeds the mic's precision. I'm calling it 0.002), 0.003. That was with the min. load. Intend to bump the shoulder now by 0.002. Unclear how to do that exactly using the RCBS FL die, but can read all I need. Thanks again.
ps: I plan to anneal this brass every time, CAREFULLY as I don't want to ruin this brass especially. A check on whether this is good practice, much appreciated anyone.
I will generally reach to the Hodgdon versions of 4350 and 4831 over the IMR's due to the newer, temperature-insensitive formulas, but it may not be the best time in the market to be overly choosy.
My experience is mostly with .30-06-family cases: 4831 is a GREAT powder if you've got a longer barrel to burn it in; 4350 does a little better job getting your bullet up and moving in a shorter space. I have used both to great effect - it just comes down to what the launch platform prefers.
Thanks, again, great info. I did read something about the temperature insensitivity but I guess I'm just used to IMR, which is a poor reason to stay with it. Are "Hogdon 4350" and "Hogdon Extreme 4350" the same thing (shootingbot lists both, but the link to Hogdon just takes you to the same powder, H4350).
I see 4350 and 4831 are on the slower end, which I understand. When you say 4350 gets it up to speed in the shorter barrel, is that because of its comparatively faster rate than 4831? (I just noticed, too, that Ramshot Hunter is right next to IMR 4831 - I used it the Hunter as a starting point from Lyman 51st, since it lists Hunter as the "accuracy" powder at its max load for 200 JSP bullets. I did see a lot of guys like Hunter, but preferred it for 225 grain bullets over the lighter 200).