Problem with 7.65x54 and jwords

First of all, I don't know if this is the corresponding sub-forum, since I couldn't find where to post it

I wanted to prepare some loads to hunt last year, using only new components. The Sierra prohunter have given me good results, so I decided to use them.
I started to load the brass and the jword was not crimp, I could remove the jwords with my hand from the brass, so I kept lowering the die in the press. Until in a moment he slightly wrinkled his shoulder.
Then I put it aside and used a factory crimp of 7,65, but I don't understand why in die it didn't crimp. I could never find out what happened. I used new brass. The seater die is a 7.65 x54 lyman.
Talking to a friend yesterday, he told me that it was because the prohunter doesn't have a crimp slot, of course I don't think so, but I never found the cause. Did it happen to any of you?

Bullets are too small. I use Hornady 174-grain SP of .312 diameter for .303 British.

That's what it sounds like to me....are you perhaps using bullets of .308" diameter? 7.65mm, .303 British, 7.7 Japanese all use .311"-312".

DG

Agree that the bullets are probably too small since the Mosin Nagant bore is usually .310 (or larger) and the expander in your die may be opening it up for that diameter, hence a loose fit. They'll probably shoot okay for hunting use, even in the larger bore, IF you can find a way to crimp a bit. The lack of a crimping groove on the bullet itself should have no effect on the seating or crimping. You should remove the expander and measure it with a micrometer, OR simply get the correct size bullet.

Also......not all dies have crimping capability. I found that out the same way you did.....kept lowering the die until the seating stem pushed the bullet too far in the case. I removed the die and looked inside with a bright light........no crimp shoulder at all. Don't remember offhand what brand of die it was.

I believe the gentleman is loading for a 7.65 Argentine Mauser. That cartridge is sometimes referred to as 7.65X53 and sometimes it's X54. I don't know why. When he says he is Far South, he isn't kidding. He's south of Brazil. But I agree that bullet diameter is critical even though it's jacketed bullets. Speer makes or used to make some 150 grain hunting bullets with .311 diameter.

yes, I am Argentine, I am in Buenos Aires.
The weapon is a mauser in 7.65x53 or 54, the nominal length is 53.4 mm, so they call it both ways
As I put, I used Sierra prohunter, which are .311
I don't remember, but I might have been through the brass for a die Lyman M,
The lyman die that I use for the seat, has no problems with my 314299 boolits. Not even with the same Sierra, when I use used brass.

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Originally Posted by nueces5

yes, I am Argentine, I am in Buenos Aires.
The weapon is a mauser in 7.65x53 or 54, the nominal length is 53.4 mm, so they call it both ways
As I put, I used Sierra prohunter, which are .311
I don't remember, but I might have been through the brass for a die Lyman M,
The lyman die that I use for the seat, has no problems with my 314299 boolits. Not even with the same Sierra, when I use used brass.

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The Lyman M die may be the problem. Did you use a standard sizer die before the M die? I'm no expert on them, but I know Lyman makes an M die labelled 31 Long. That may or may not be correct for the 7.65. I can't remember the situation, but I got into trouble with loose necks in the past by using an M die. That may have been with a 32 caliber handgun cartridge. I believe I had to start over again by running the brass back through the sizer, skipping the M die, putting a slight flare on the mouths and then going straight to the seater. In your case with 311 bullets, I would go from sizer to seater. You might not need any crimp that way.

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Originally Posted by Mohawk Daddy

The Lyman M die may be the problem. Did you use a standard sizer die before the M die? I'm no expert on them, but I know Lyman makes an M die labelled 31 Long. That may or may not be correct for the 7.65. I can't remember the situation,

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I use new brass
And yes, 31 long

Sice you are loading jacketed bullets, the expander isn't really needed. I have always loaded jacketed bullets in bottle necked rifle cases by sizing, then repriming charge with powder and finally, seat the bullet.

Two die process is all that is necessary for jacketed rifle loads. A crimp usually isn't needed for bolt action rifles either.

Hope this helps,

Robert

The neck expander button with die set may be opening the neck of the brass too much ? You could try sizing the brass without the neck button/ de capping pin installed . Also that .311 bullet maybe just too small , I believe Speer used to sell bullets for that caliber at .313 dia I used to have a couple boxes so marked

The OP doesn't mention the brand of cases used or the diameter of the Sierra bullets used (Pro-Hunters come in both .308 and .311 diameters). Knowing at least the bullet dimeter would help solve the problem. I use .310 - .312 jacketed in my 7.65 Argentine loads for 3 rifles (2 M91s and a m1909). Also, with either cast or jacketed I've never found it necessary to crimp the case mouths.

Thank you all very much for the contribution.
The brass are new from the arms factory in my country. FM (Military Manufacturing). The jwords was Sierra prohunter .311
I use the lyman M die, 31 long, for my .314 boolits
So I think I was wrong to use it for jwords

I tried using a M die when loading 30-06 many years ago and found I had the same problem you have, loose bullet. I quit using an M die for jacketed ammunition and have not had that trouble since. I think you have a handle on your problem on your above post. Good luck. By the way, I really liked Argentina the short time I was there in 1961. james

Ah, Buenos Aires! I always thought the name sounded so pretty! My Bersa Thunder9 Ultra Compact Pro was made in Ramos Mejia, Argentina, what an elegant weapon for such an affordable price.
I am glad you have your loose bullet problem figured out.

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Originally Posted by nueces5

Thank you all very much for the contribution.
The brass are new from the arms factory in my country. FM (Military Manufacturing). The jwords was Sierra prohunter .311
I use the lyman M die, 31 long, for my .314 boolits
So I think I was wrong to use it for jwords

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Looks like you've figured out the problem, don't use the M-die with jacketed bullets. Those .311 Sierra's should shoot very well and no crimp is needed.

I live in Ramos Mejia. I go to a couple of blocks every day to go to work in the factory. That does not get to have more than a few hundred meters. Although they are very popular, the Bersa, I do not own any. Blacksmith house, wooden knife.
I'll take the advice and I'll leave the lyman for my boolits.

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Originally Posted by Larry Gibson

Looks like you've figured out the problem, don't use the M-die with jacketed bullets. Those .311 Sierra's should shoot very well and no crimp is needed.

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Thanks Larry, I think speaking out loud, there is no doubt that the problem was always in front of my eyes.

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Originally Posted by nueces5

Thanks Larry, I think speaking out loud, there is no doubt that the problem was always in front of my eyes.

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It seems that the Lyman .31 Long die has two different steps (tapers): the second one might be excessive for .311 j-words but the first one might be of some help: according to Lyman´s manual "The first step expands the inside of the case neck to just under bullet diameter for precise case neck tension in the finished reload" You might want to try just the first taper only before discarding its use.

Argie.

I think you have found your problem but you keep saying new brass. I always size new brass because I have no idea what might happen in shipping.