How Hard Do Low-Velocity Range Lead Powder Coated Cowboy Bullets Need To Be?

I can pull a lot of lead out of the berms at our local range. It's right on the surface, or just an inch or two into the soft dirt. Tens of thousands of rounds.

Goal is to cast 200-gr .45 RNFP and 125-gr .38 RNFP for Cowboy Action SA revolvers and 1873 Winchesters, then powder coat.

For powder-coated bullets moving at 450 FPS, over light Trail Boss loads, does the lead really need to be that hard?

Would simple range scrap be okay?

Admittedly, a goodly amount of lead in them thar hills is jacketed, but just looking at what I pull out by hand, quite a bit is cast, meaning it was probably harder to start with.

How hard were original 1873 bullets for a Colt or Winchester? How hard do slow, coated bullets need to be?

Anything harder than pure lead would work.

I use range scraps for low velocity rifle, normal 357 Mag velocities and high velocity 9mm Luger. Fit is more important.

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I have cast dead soft lead and straight range scrap for extremely light .44 mag loads. 7 grns. unique under a 250 grain bullet. I powder coat both with Eastwood powder and have had no problems. The powder coated soft lead will knock large chunks of wood out of the back of a 2x4.

You will probably find that range lead coming out in the middle of the road in hardness. If you want softer or harder lead separate the jacketed form the cast. True jacketed bullets are usually very soft and I have gotten 18 to 22 bhn out of the cast I pull from the range I go to.

Even dead soft lead would work fine in CAS loads.

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Originally Posted by fredj338

Even dead soft lead would work fine in CAS loads.

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This!
Dead soft with powder coat works great. Single coat of hightech works great at that velocity.

Boolits that are swaged are available in both calibers. They are soft lead. At low velocities they should be fine.

range scrap varies greatly by whats been shot.

If you want some sort of consistency I would select a hardness you want 6-8 bhn and use a hardness tester with different alloys on hand so you can match that hardness.

I smelt into ingots then wait 14-30 days, test and mark the hardness and alloy by the numbers. If the boolit doesn't fill out I either turn up the heat or add some tin

I would shoot pure lead if I had it. At 500 fps, who cares? There's pellet guns that shoot more than that.

They don't have to be hard at all . a mix of 1 part tin /20 parts lead would be fine .
Range scrap is a little hard to pin down ... it varies .
I treat it as lead and mix it 50-50 with COWW , air cooled boolits = bhn 8 approx. , this is my all around mix for handgun and 30 cal. rifle .
Powder coated , they will do just fine for handgun . When I hit +1000 fps I like a gas check .
But remember fit of boolit is much more impotant than hardness ... make sure they fit throat/barrel .
A undersized hard boolit will lead the bore like you wouldn't believe ... fit/size trumps harness.
Powder coat or use a good lubricant ...you will be fine!
Gary

99%+ of my shooting is done with range scrap. I make it using 150# of range scrap and the batches come out with +/- 100# of clean alloy to use that has been in the +/- 8/9bhn for years.
Typical recovery from a batch of range lead.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/Yj0Qjnh.jpg[/IMG]

Air cooled is 8/9bhn and water dropped is +/- 12bhn. I never worried about this alloy/range scrap when keeping the loads under 25,000psi. Over 25,000psi and I start paying attention, accuracy will fall off.

Blammo ammo 38spl loads/15,00psi (6-shot groups @ 50ft) using 8/9bhn range scrap/pc'd bullets.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/AL4WBux.jpg[/IMG]
50ft blammo ammo using pc'd range scrap with a 25,000psi load in a 9mm.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/N6XBlbc.jpg[/IMG]
50ft 17,00psi 5-shot groups with a 45acp using the same range scrap/pc'd.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/N17hNIE.jpg[/IMG]
Not even sure of the pressure of these plinking loads in a 308w 10-shot groups @ 50yds using pc'd range scrap bullets.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/BJ3ovpc.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/xORGXOf.jpg?1[/IMG]
Same range lead/pc'd in a 629 @ 50yds.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/eZrMQsG.jpg[/IMG]
Same bullet in a contender @ 100yds zeroing a red dot I just put on it to bang on some steel. Top row has holes everywhere, the bottom 2 targets is when the rubber started to meet the road.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/wLHw6OR.jpg[/IMG]

That bottom right target. +/- 1 1/2" @ 100yds with 8/9bhn range scrap/20,00psi load.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/7KMGHIm.jpg[/IMG]


I would quit worrying about how good/bad range scrap is and start worrying about hitting what your aiming at when you hit the loud button.

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Originally Posted by gwpercle

They don't have to be hard at all . a mix of 1 part tin /20 parts lead would be fine .
Range scrap is a little hard to pin down ... it varies .
I treat it as lead and mix it 50-50 with COWW , air cooled boolits = bhn 8 approx. , this is my all around mix for handgun and 30 cal. rifle .
Powder coated , they will do just fine for handgun . When I hit +1000 fps I like a gas check .
But remember fit of boolit is much more impotant than hardness ... make sure they fit throat/barrel .
A undersized hard boolit will lead the bore like you wouldn't believe ... fit/size trumps harness.
Powder coat or use a good lubricant ...you will be fine!
Gary

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This is great information. Thanks. I bought some powder-coated 9mm and .380 bullets. They leaded my autos worse than I could believe. So bad they wouldn't go into battery. Now I understand they may have been undersized.

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Originally Posted by Forrest r

99%+ of my shooting is done with range scrap. I make it using 150# of range scrap and the batches come out with +/- 100# of clean alloy to use that has been in the +/- 8/9bhn for years.
Typical recovery from a batch of range lead.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/Yj0Qjnh.jpg[/IMG]

I would quit worrying about how good/bad range scrap is and start worrying about hitting what your aiming at when you hit the loud button.

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That's what I want to hear.

First, What's your rule of thumb for sizing? I assume you slug your barrels? Then, how do you measure the slug?

Second, I'd rather save my increasingly difficult-to-come-by wheelweights for other alloys. If range scrap works that well for you, I'm in. Even .308 Winchester. That's impressive.

This is encouraging. I don't want to go through the whole process of casting, powder coating, sizing and loading only to find they don't work.

Na I don't both slugging barrels. I do drop a sized bullet in the cylinders of revolvers. I like the bullet to fall thru with little or no pressure.

The conterder gets a diet of .430" bullets because that what a 629 and a ca bulldog like.

The 9mm's get .358" bullets because that's what I use in the 5 38spl/357's that I own. Just don't feel like making .356" bullets for the 9mm's when .358" bullets will work in everything.

The 45acp's get a .452" bullet. Owned 20+ firearms chambered in 45acp over the decades. They all got .452" bullets.

The 308w gets .311" or .310" bullets with the "hot" loads using .310" only.

Soft alloys and pc'd bullets tend to be pretty forgiving until I use hot loads or fast burning high pressure gunpowder when the bullets are undersized. A S&W 624 comes to mind, it had .4325" cylinders. I shot a lot of .430" bullets in it that were cast from that 8/9bhn range scrap then pc's and sized to .430 for the other 44cal's. Never had any leading & accuracy was more then acceptable with powders like clays & unique. Start using titegroup or upper end loads with bullseye and things go south pretty quick.

Try not to over think things and go out and enjoy yourself. Low level loads with soft alloys are extremely forgiving.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forrest r

Na I don't both slugging barrels. I do drop a sized bullet in the cylinders of revolvers. I like the bullet to fall thru with little or no pressure.

The conterder gets a diet of .430" bullets because that what a 629 and a ca bulldog like.

The 9mm's get .358" bullets because that's what I use in the 5 38spl/357's that I own. Just don't feel like making .356" bullets for the 9mm's when .358" bullets will work in everything.

The 45acp's get a .452" bullet. Owned 20+ firearms chambered in 45acp over the decades. They all got .452" bullets.

The 308w gets .311" or .310" bullets with the "hot" loads using .310" only.

Soft alloys and pc'd bullets tend to be pretty forgiving until I use hot loads or fast burning high pressure gunpowder when the bullets are undersized. A S&W 624 comes to mind, it had .4325" cylinders. I shot a lot of .430" bullets in it that were cast from that 8/9bhn range scrap then pc's and sized to .430 for the other 44cal's. Never had any leading & accuracy was more then acceptable with powders like clays & unique. Start using titegroup or upper end loads with bullseye and things go south pretty quick.

Try not to over think things and go out and enjoy yourself. Low level loads with soft alloys are extremely forgiving.

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Excellent. I have those sizers. And dropping a bullet through the cylinder is a neat trick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Liberty1776

This is great information. Thanks. I bought some powder-coated 9mm and .380 bullets. They leaded my autos worse than I could believe. So bad they wouldn't go into battery. Now I understand they may have been undersized.

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Are you actually getting leading in the barrel or are you going by the fact that the slide isn't going into battery? I have had similar problems as have a few friends. It appears to be the coating that is preventing the bullets from seating properly in the chamber.

I took a few that a friend had a problem with (these were commercially coated bullets and loaded by him) and reseated them to the transition of the ogive and they worked perfectly with no leading.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch-1

Are you actually getting leading in the barrel or are you going by the fact that the slide isn't going into battery? I have had similar problems as have a few friends. It appears to be the coating that is preventing the bullets from seating properly in the chamber.

I took a few that a friend had a problem with (these were commercially coated bullets and loaded by him) and reseated them to the transition of the ogive and they worked perfectly with no leading.

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They started out shooting fine, then progressively got less reliable after a couple of mags' full.

I also thought it might be a powder problem -- too hot; i.e., to fast. Tried Alliant Sport Pistol, which Alliant claims is optimized for polymer coated bullets. Seemed to work okay.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/product...rt-pistol.aspx